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John Erlich
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Oud and Spirituality
Greetings Fellow Oud Maniacs,
I have wanted for a long time to post a question about other Forum members' oud playing and their spiritual life.
I am interested in hearing other players takes on...
1) How oud playing is (or isn't) in and of itself a spiritual experience for you; and
2) If and how you integrate your oud playing into your spiritual life in general.
To me, playing the oud itself is one of the most profound religious experiences I have. Right now, with my "faith" at low ebb, it amounts to my
primary spiritual practice.
I also volunteer once a month as an accompanist, helping to lead (Jewish Renewal) religious services, playing on all of the songs and hymns of Near
Eastern/North African origin.
My band, which has gone inactive lately, played Jewish sacred music from the Middle East and North Africa. We also threw in some Turkish Sufi
ilahiler into our program (I am listening to a CD of ilahiler as a write this!) and were occasionally joined by a local Mevlevi dervish. When my band
was active, performing this music was a deeply religious experience for me, and amounted to my main spiritual practice, even in times when my faith
was stronger.
I still get quite a bit out of going to the synagogue (a politically progressive Conservative congregation in Berkeley, CA, USA) to pray, but I still
often get the feeling that I would rather be communing with The Divine by playing my oud than by chanting prayers!
Peace/Salaam/Shalom/Shlama/Khoda Hafez etc.,
John
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katakofka
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Hi John,
The Oud is widely used in our church (the maronite church) especially when a quarter tones are used. Many priests played the Ouds. My first teacher or
influence was the priest in our church who used to be a very good Oud player. When I grew up I used to take the Oud with me to the Chruch and used it
often with the chorus. Recently, instead of praying before sleeping I am playing for 1h some takasims putting myself in a smooth mood. It works better
than praying or taking xanax : )
Best regards
Souheil
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John Erlich
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Ahalan Souheil,
When I find the time, I am going to try to organize a concert of Aramaic/Syriac chant between my synagogue and the Bay Area's Maronite church.
"Aramaicapalooza?" 
Does the Maronite church you attend(ed) sing any hymns that are set to the melody of an Arabic folk or popular song?
Shlama raba,
John
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katakofka
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Hey John
no poplular or arabic folk you find in the hymns. Actually they still using the very old melodies transmitted from the beginning of that Chruch. In
our days some priests made new hymns but in the same way of thinking as the oldies.
Best
Souheil
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John Erlich
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Hi Souheil,
I asked because a friend of mine who is Coptic sang a couple of hymns from his Church which were set to well-known Arabic melodies. One hymn about
Jacob wrestling with the Angel is set to "Ala Balad El Mahbub," which is also used to sing Psalms 118:21 in some Middle Eastern Jewish communities.
Here is a YouTube sample of what I'm talking about : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7YDCedKbnA Hebrew religious songs set to popular of folk Arabic (or Turkish or Persian) melodies are called
"pizmonim." Yehezkel Zion is a hazzan (prayer leader) of Iraqi-Jewish ancestry.
And I ALWAYS sleep better if I get a chance to play oud before bed.
Peace,
John
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Donjis3
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I espécialy apréciate this thread john .thx!
I dont have much time as it is but i'll get back at you as soon as possible..
Gratitude,Don!
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SamirCanada
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I know my priest would not allow different melodies for well known hymns and like Souheil said, the melodies have been the same since the begining.
Actualy if you look up Dr. Scott Marcus's encyclopedia of middle-eastern music, you will find a maronite maqam. this is pretty much the only scale
used.
In fact he would not allow the oud to be played during liturgy but this may be his own policy 
Also I doubt your friend has sung this hymn during the liturgy. Maybe it was done afterwards in the basement or at a gathering/show. My fiancé is
coptic orthodox and even though I dont go much to there church I do know that they are quite strict about what could be done during the mass. The oud
would not be permited durring the mass as it is not one of the only 2 instruments permited. triangle and cymbals.
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katakofka
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John: I guess it's a very controversial issue whether the music is derived from the senagog/church and made popular folk music or the opposite.
In the maronite church you don't hear popular music, if this happens it would be a rare event in some churches but not widely spread. The basic of the
maronite/syriac church music is a simple melody (not more than 3 to 4 notes) similar to many old churches (e.g orthodox church). Pere keserwani, who
is an ethnomusicologist, claims that the makams we have now are all "composed" makams derived from simple tetra or tri-cords which were widely spread
in Mesopotamia. Briefly, he claims that we still use the same music since ages in all middle eastern countries.
Check his website
http://www.musimedialogy.org/
He also has a group called "the Mesopotamia Ensemble" that might interest you in your possible project.
http://www.musimedialogy.org/Meso.html
Best
Souheil
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John Erlich
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Hi Samir,
Mabruk on your engagement!
I don't know exactly in what context my friend's Coptic church sang these hymns. Jewish "pizmonim" are not typically sung during the regular the
synagogue service, but in the home or at special gatherings. In some Jewish communities, such as Jews from Aleppo, Syria, there is a tradition of
going to the synagogue in the very early hours of the morning and signing "baqqashot" (for more info, check out: http://www.pizmonim.org/ - click on "Pizmonim" and scroll down) for several hours before the Saturday morning service starts.
One thing similar between us: Orthodox and Conservative Jews absolutely don't use musical instruments as part of the Shabbat (Sabbath) service as this
is something specifically forbidden by religious law. (Although I don't know of any custom to use musical instruments during synagogue services not
on Shabbat, I don't think this would be specifically forbidden.) I know that the use of musical instruments was and is widely debated among Muslims,
too.
Peace,
John
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John Erlich
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| Quote: | Originally posted by katakofka
John: I guess it's a very controversial issue whether the music is derived from the senagog/church and made popular folk music or the opposite.
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You aren't kidding, Souhail! I once emailed my question to a Coptic web site and got a rather nasty response.
On this matter, I would distinguish between GENERAL musical styles in the Near East and North Africa, which are obviously influenced by pre-Arab and
pre-Islamic musical forms, such as Eastern Christian chant and Jewish Torah "ta'amim" (chanting trope) and SPECIFIC songs. I have a CD the liner
notes of which claim that the melody of "Ala Balad El Mahboub" was taken from Jewish synagogue chants. I don't take this claim too seriously and am
not convinced that Riad El Soumbati "borrowed" this melody.
All the best,
John
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katakofka
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| Quote: | Originally posted by John Erlich
You aren't kidding, Souhail! I once emailed my question to a Coptic web site and got a rather nasty response.
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What were the question and the nasty response?
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shareen
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John, what an amazing thread. I think that many of us, no matter what religion we are feel this way about our ouds and music in general. It is God's
language. I will u2u on this, as I have things to share that I'd rather do on that basis, but will add to this thread soon.
Shukran, thank you, toda roba...shalom, salaam, peace.
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Ararat66
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Great thread - like some of the others I wil contribute but need a little time to consider my reply.
Leon
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cjmichael
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I find that listening to and playing the oud or any other expressive instrument is a gateway to reach the ever-peaceful meditative state that some
reach when they worship.
There is a common bond between religions of the mid-east and the far-east in that certain repetitive and familiar rituals allow you to reach a
meditative state where you have let go of all your senses and are truly reaching a state of rapture or enlightenment. I believe that focus,
familiarity, and repetition are momentous in reaching a spiritual state that allows people to feel the presence of God, the harmony of nature, or the
state of Enlightenment.
I feel that instruments are great tools for spirituality because they embody a ritualism. The player must focus so that there is little or no static
between the music they hear inside themselves and the music that leaves their instrument. The listener must in turn focus to understand the feeling
the player conveys. The familiarity comes when we start to hear and play maqamat and other patterns in a way that people in the world communally
understand them. A sad song remains sad and a happy song remains happy. And without repetition, without the consistent stroke of the risha against
the strings, without hearing or performing a piece of music many times, the music becomes less relaxing and more challenging to hear. I don't believe
music that "makes you think" is a bad thing, but I do feel it distracts from this meditative state. I don't know too much about "tarab", but I
believe there is a very good bit of repetition involved.
Playing oud, just like participating in my religion, brings me to this wonderful state of meditation where I feel truly at peace amidst the world
around me. A lot like the Taoist state of Enlightenment, it's a feeling that cannot be explained with words. I believe that real music is not
harmful. It doesn't take control or give people evil thoughts. On the contrary, it helps us release ourselves from the material world around us and
helps to open the gateway to the spiritual side that I solemnly believe every human has.
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Amer
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I've been thinking about this very topic in the realm of zen.. maybe because I've been studying far eastern religions for a few months now..
The oud really does induce a mind state of strong meditative nature.. I'm sure we all feel it, it's just impossible not to notice.. especially when
listening to an improvisation that is spiritual in some way, or when you're just in a good mood and play "for yourself"!
Personally, I like OUI.. Ouding under the influence! 
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Boral
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cjmichael,
I am also learning the ney (oud is very recent). I agree with everything you said . I would like to add the word trance because meditative and trance
states are equal; trance states induced by music are so near the spiritual or mystical experiences.
It is indeed something that approaches us to our inner world, that inner space of peace and beauty.
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oudplayer
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Hey john
How are you buddy?
for me its all about frame drum and perccusion. everytime i i play a tak, doum, or pa, its a the soul rises. When i play the oud the soul
dances. when i play psalms and yemeni diwan, it makes me think about what each note is trying to say. some times when i play infront of people thats
when god takes my soul and recharges it with the happiness of other people.
basicly when i play by my self it is different then in front of people.
Us musicans have the ability to turn somebodys , life around and make them more aware of things at the monmont.
thx sammy
we are lost camels in the desert and wanna find our way to water and the water is in aden
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Jameel
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I don't get anything spiritual out of playing my oud. But I tell you this, during the course of making an oud I do a lot praying, cursing, repenting,
hoping, and sometimes even weeping! LOL!
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journeyman
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"during the course of making an oud I do a lot praying, cursing, repenting, hoping, and sometimes even weeping!"
I hear you Jameel. The same thing happens to me when I make Greek salads. The Kalmata olive, which as you rightly pointed out is the original
inspiration for the oud, just starts me speaking in tongues, wailing, cursing...it's like some ancient spirit just takes over my body or something.
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John Erlich
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| Quote: | Originally posted by katakofka
| Quote: | Originally posted by John Erlich
You aren't kidding, Souhail! I once emailed my question to a Coptic web site and got a rather nasty response.
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What were the question and the nasty response? |
Hi Souheil,
I asked very specifically about where I could find/buy recordings of the Jacob-wrestling-with-the-Angel "Ala Balad El Mahboub" and other Coptic hymns
employing existing folk and popular Arabic melodies. They responded curtly something like, "We in the Coptic Church don't borrow Arabic melodies. We
came first and they borrow from us." No information was provided about where I could find/buy recordings. I got the message that the relationship
between Arabic culture and cultures of non-Arab and/or non-Muslim minorities in the Arab World is very controversial.
I have subsequently heard similar stories, such as an Algerian Amazigh (Berber) band threating to walk off the stage in the middle of a performance
(somewhere in the USA) because a member of the audience requested an Arabic-language song.
My "day job" is in local government, and I have learned how to apply the bland, bureaucratic, legalistic language required by my day job (that is,
required to keep people from suing your agency) to approach discussion such topics more delicately.
Peace,
John
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Donjis3
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Hello again John!
The very fact of being is of a spiritual nature in it self !makes no diférences if i'm aware of it or not!It... get's enhanced when i'm conciously aware of it though!For instance as it is i'm praticing risha thecniques..it's
a concious effort..at least when i'M strating to practice..then it It...when loosening concient control takes over and I get mysticaly lost in waves
of créativities then at the vey instant that i get aware of what's realy happening (taking control again) Sometimes... in tears of joy...I am that we
are ...It and the relations ship with me...only happens whe playing alone!
And has first previously states:I'm very new with ouds!
Basicaly the key word for me is CRÉATIVITY...And in it's globalisation of issues ...there is a great need of creativity in this world...Evreything is
(for me) a créative potentiality that gets enhance even and espacialy in adversity..or polarity..for instance the fretted insturments being fretted
are limited buy their very structural nature while most of the non fretted ones are limitless ... and being so enhance(micros tons) wolrdwide
émancipation of creatiivity musicaly speaking ...music is a beyond words medium that speaks from souls to souls..and induce states of consciousness
...being basicaly organised noises..it is by nature limitless..being so exclusion is very commun when one feel insécure when loving power while
others feels empowerd in loving...even in adversity..Now to all the purists traditionalyts I'm very greatfull cause you are the gardians of my most
pure travelings throught time, space, and conditions...to the créators of the new ways I'm greatfull as well..for ehnacing créativity...All has to
feel globaly included with respects...I'm dreaming of instruments that any menbers of any cultures could mostly instanteniusly feel at home to play..
Créativity tkaes places ... here... and always in thy now!Gratitudes,Don!
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Donjis3
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hello thre!
I was wandering if someone would know what musical strucure (maquam?)that are being use in sufi's music?
Gratiude,Don!
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rebetostar
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I'd like to recommend an excellent book on this subject;
"The Mysticism of Sound and Music"
The Sufi Teaching of Hazrat Inayat Khan.
It has been very meaningful to me and confirmed that my devotion to music has immense spiritual value.
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charlie oud
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 Mindfulness use it. Peace.
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Christian1095
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Yeah, I don't know if simply playing the oud brings me closer to my faith... However, I will say that I have been happier overall since I picked up
the instrument. I really enjoy the learning process... I enjoy practicing... I enjoy playing for others... so for me it's really more of a feeling
of general happiness when I pick up the instrument.... It's pretty amazing that since I picked it up 6-7 months ago I haven't been able to put it
down. I try to play a bit before I go to work and then at least 2-3 hours every evening.... For me the coolest thing is that even if I set goals,
the horizon is always in front of me... so I'll never really perfect it... but I'm hoping I can get pretty darn good...
Chris Walters
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