| Pages:
1
..
4
5
6
7
8
9 |
katakofka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 811
Registered: 1-24-2008
Location: Cleveland
Member Is Offline
Mood: Gypsy
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by suz_i_dil
By the way, if you are looking for the old school style, try to meet with the brother of Mohammed Antar. I loose a bit contact with him and didn't
know if he is back in Egypt...But pretty sure you will enjoy if you listen to him |
Suz, do you consider the style of Nasser shamma a new school in opposite to the traditional, old school? I don't agree. Nasser developed the style of
Jamil Bashir and Jamil Bashir is considered old school too but was neglected. Now there is a reason why it was neglected, i guess it's due to the fact
that Jamil tried to play a guitar style on the Oud. It was neglected because I presume that Farid el atrashe style, al sombati, el kasabji style took
over and become what we call the old school. Why they took over? I guess it's
due to the fact that it's authentic music that people liked more than playing western music on the Oud. By the way I don't know why the Bashir's
family are doing such thing. Look to Omar bashir, flamenco Oud! Is it playing Oud like a guitar considered modern music? Modern, as I see it, is going back to your authentic music and make new things that
emerge from authenticity, from what we are from what is our heritage.
Instrumental music is different from music having words, like a song for example, by which the words makes part in the music expression. Instrumental
music is a way of expression by itself that should be at least authentic.
When I listen to some work of Jamil bashir I directly think about spanish and coarse music such as Al Solenzara
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55U0YwNlguQ
Compare to
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJWlWvRzFB8
or
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVSTPQTziRI
I'll leave for you the verdict
|
|
|
suz_i_dil
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1061
Registered: 1-10-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
A verdict?...I won't assume such responsability
yes, that is what I was meaning by old school style...but definitely not what I think about.
Actually I used "old school" as a common understood and general definition, the one I often heard about this style.
But I join, I think, your global opinion about.
I find some authenticity in the way of playing from Naseer Shamma and love this way to develop new ways from the classical style. This is just another
kind of developpement of a traditionnal heritage.
Sure "old school" doesn't mean much.
And finally...el Qassabji was very modern regarding to Zeryab way of playing.
So were is the old school?
Just remember that the technic Naseer Shamma took to play with finger, without risha, like in flamenco and classical guitar, is inspired from the
technic describe in old manuscript about oud. Long long before those great egyptian players.
So I'll take care to words... now I will call now Naseer Shamma style the "antique style" 
|
|
|
Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
Registered: 1-20-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: g'oud
|
|
Rock on JAMIL!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kY26CkGvuo&NR=1
)
- - -
trying to get the last JT+MG clips up but experiencing technical difficulties...
- - -
had an interesting experience tonight at the National Theatre where the oud player (ensemble leader) had a fight with the violin player - RIGHT ON
STAGE!!!
I will post this in a few minutes...
|
|
|
Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
Registered: 1-20-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: g'oud
|
|
I was at a concert tonight at the National Theatre... classical Arabic music is almost completely dead in Egypt although Oum Kalsoum recordings can
still be hear everywhere. But as a performing art, it is dead.... if it was not for large government funding it would not exist in concert form - is
my guess.
...what happened tonight, in my opinion, really shows this deterioration very vividly.
The orchestra leader was an Iraqi oud player/composer visiting Cairo to present his works. It seems the orchestra did not learn his pieces properly,
and half way thru the 7th piece, he stopped the orchestra and screamed at the violin section..... as you can see on the video.
He later told the audience (before he was cut-off by the theatre security) that there was a conspiracy against him to make him look bad...
I watched the whole thing and could see that the orchestra was honestly struggling with unfamiliar music, and for sure not purposefully blundering...
it is obvious that they just didn't work hard on his music - and why should they when only 20 people show up for the gig??
Classical music is dead in Cairo --- if it exists then it is only when they play famous pop-classics from the past... and even then they struggle to
get an audience.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALqGKXOgG34
|
|
|
katakofka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 811
Registered: 1-24-2008
Location: Cleveland
Member Is Offline
Mood: Gypsy
|
|
suz, I am more talking about Nasser the composer, the music composer rather than Nasser the oud technician or jamil the technician. No doubt they are
good technicians both, but I am not sure about their music.
Here is a question: what would you guess the popular memory would keep from Nasser's work? very few I assume but my gut feeling the piece that would
prevail would be "hilaal assaba". Popular memory would select over time similar
to what is selected from the previous area. Why do we hear lot of baligh hamdy's bayaati and siga songs these days? Popular memory selected them.
|
|
|
katakofka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 811
Registered: 1-24-2008
Location: Cleveland
Member Is Offline
Mood: Gypsy
|
|
For a while I thought that Saddam Huseen is on stage. Unbelievable ! The cello player left the scene too at the end of the clip
|
|
|
Jameel
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1672
Registered: 12-5-2002
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
What a great thread and great videos Edward! I'm really enjoying listening as I write. Your own personal oud summit. Ah, we all need to bring these
guys together in one place for an American oud conference. I've been here at Mike's forum since day one, and your contribution is one of the best
Edward. Thanks for taking all the time to take the video, edit, and upload it. As well as your commentary. Glad you are having a blast in Egypt. Music
brings people together. And that's a good thing. 
|
|
|
Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
Registered: 1-20-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: g'oud
|
|
...thanks Jameel!
Kata, the cello player was arguing with the drummer on stage also earlier in the performance - this was a strange evening. I was talking to a regular
concert goer afterwards who said that he has never seen anything like this before (so it was very unusual).
by the way, the other cello player was Oum Kalsoum's long-term cello player. Wow, that guy sure has seen the changing of the tide of Arab classical
music in Cairo.
--- I will also add my own opinion about when I hear chords on an oud. Somehow I find it a bit depressing. I am not sure exactly why - and need to
look deep in myself for the real answer. First, I think that an oud is designed to play modal music, not chordal music --- it is really not suited to
chords, so they can sometimes sound out-of-tune. The other thing is that I was originally a guitar player and for many years went very much into
chords. You know chord music on guitar has become a VERY highly developed thing... but on oud, what you hear them playing are the most fundamental
major/minor triads --- essential the most boring and irritating chords possible. It is a struggle enough just to get those chords intune, nobody will
risk playing BeBop chords for example., or any kind of more colourful chords like 9ths, 13th, and polytonal things - which sound so beautiful on a
guitar. [on the other hand I find it equally irritating when fretted guitarists try to play maqam...]
Secondly, for me, the beauty of oud is it's ability to play microtones - so why 'flatten' those out with chordal playing?
On the incredibly rare occation I have hear chordal oud playing that appealled to my ears - so it seems it really is possible... but my guess is that
it will be a long time before something really interesting comes out of this way of playing oud.... but maybe it will not be so long, because just go
the the OUDHOUSE and you will see droves of young oud players there intermixing maqam with chords (usually nahawand with C minor - SURPRISE!?)
My favourite of the common maqams is SIKAH. This maqam for me really catches the mood of Arabic music - but what chord are you going to play under
that, and still maintain the SIKAH feeling??
...goodbye maqam
...goodbye Arabic music
I am not saying there is anything wrong with taking good ideas from other instruments and other musical cultures (this is what I am doing my whole
life)... I am only saying that this ought to be done with a lot of intelligent pre-though and even logic. But what seems to be the prevalent attitude
at the moment is that just to take anything Western and fit in into the music somehow, is always a "cool" thing.
|
|
|
Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
Registered: 1-20-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: g'oud
|
|
Back to JT and MeG
clip 4 is now up!
here are the links... 1 thru 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWn2ysvVUZU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9TV_3Z6-40
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Tzs-5bOiZ4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfpnG2Q3xxQ
|
|
|
Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
Registered: 1-20-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: g'oud
|
|
Just another thought struck me, on the topic of 'chordal oud playing' becoming oud-mainstream...
I didn't realise that Jamil Bashir had developed this angle so long ago - and interesting that at that time it didn't catch on... and yes now, of
course there is Omar Bashir's flamenco oud...
But anyway, back to Cairo, I can now see the long line stretching from the past and into the future:
Starting with Jamil Bashir --- next came Naseer Shamma --- now Hazem Shaheen --- soon upcoming Abouzekri --- and when you go to the OUDHOUSE Sat, Mon,
or Wednesday you will see the next chordal oud-star - I don't know his name but he is a 13 year old boy playing already very very well. When I first
met him I sat beside him and listened for a while as he played some nahawand composition. Then he began noodling around, and sure enough out came the
chords.... major triads chromatically up and down the neck -- out of tune of course... 13 years old - clearly not really thinking about what he is
doing. . . just mechanically practicing over and over and over all the things his teacher is giving him. He will be the next Abouzekri, who will be
the next Shaheen, who will be the next Shamma, who is the next Bashir.......
please take me with a grain of salt All due respect to these fine,
hardworking, and well deserving oud players.
|
|
|
katakofka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 811
Registered: 1-24-2008
Location: Cleveland
Member Is Offline
Mood: Gypsy
|
|
Edward: of note is that chord playing on oud was exploited mainly with the turikish Master al-sharif muhyi addyyn haydar (in Turkey muhyi addyn
targan) who established the music national school in Iraq in 1936. Jamil bashir was one of his first student on oud.
I guess you lived or passed by Turkey trying to get knowledge regarding their music.Could you tell to what extend Muhyi addyyn targan is appreciated
in Turkey? If one wants to compare the prevalence of Targan and Cinuçen Tanrıkorur which one is the dominant in turkish ud style music? I am
assuming Cinuçen Tanrıkorur, right?
|
|
|
suz_i_dil
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1061
Registered: 1-10-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by katakofka
suz, I am more talking about Nasser the composer, the music composer rather than Nasser the oud technician or jamil the technician. No doubt they
are good technicians both, but I am not sure about their music.
Indeed in my post I was mainly speaking of old kind of technic. But in the music also I find this old heritage I was talking about. Then it is very
subjective matter...what will stay in next generation, really I don't have an idea about. Maybe some melodies but again in a new way of developpement
around.
I find the style of Naseer more near from this heritage, and actually I'm not too fond of the style of the bashir family, or at least for the kind of
pieces you were talking about.
About Serif Muhittin Targan, here is a great CD , interpretations from an ensemble of saz semai from this composer but also other kind of composition
like caprice or the dance we were talking about.
http://www.tulumba.com/storeItem.asp?ic=MU900586GG649 |
|
|
|
Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
Registered: 1-20-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: g'oud
|
|
I lived in Istanbul for a year and was just blown away by the level of the young oud players and oud playing and musicianship, and musicianship in
general in Turkey. And all of that with very little trace of the STAR SYSTEM... and even the STARS are very relaxed people who all have time to hang
around and chat and play --- I was totally impressed!
In my research I did not trace back to the previous generation too much. My favourite oud player of all time is YORGO BACANOS. Of course I love
Cinucen - who is the teacher of my teacher (Necati Celik, who sounds very much like Cinucen).
My impression is that Targan is respected for being a great technical player but one that produced rather cool music, and was perhaps overly
Westernised. I was not attracted by what I heard from him so I didn't persue that line of research.
It is only since coming here to Cairo that I find out the "Iraqi-style" is actually Turkish style introduced by Targan in Bagdad, and before that
there was not much oud in Iraq...
But to answer your question about contemporary Turkish oud style... sure they are using some chordal things, and some double-stops etc., but only a
little, and they have a way to fit it tastefully into the Turkish feeling. In contrast, what is going on in Cairo currently really seems like
guitar-playing-on-oud.
So I guess the line stretching back ought to include Targan before Jamil.
|
|
|
Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
Registered: 1-20-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: g'oud
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by katakofka
Edward: of note is that chord playing on oud was exploited mainly with the turikish Master al-sharif muhyi addyyn haydar (in Turkey muhyi addyn
targan) who established the music national school in Iraq in 1936. Jamil bashir was one of his first student on oud.
I guess you lived or passed by Turkey trying to get knowledge regarding their music.Could you tell to what extend Muhyi addyyn targan is appreciated
in Turkey? If one wants to compare the prevalence of Targan and Cinuçen Tanrıkorur which one is the dominant in turkish ud style music? I am
assuming Cinuçen Tanrıkorur, right? |
would you be able to point out any clips of someone other than jamil who plays in targan style (actually jamil is NOT targan style is he? even though
he studied with targan)---
and some clips other than necati or cinucen who are playing cinucan style?
now, who's style is yurdal's derivative of?
there is a kind of 'old school' turkish style - which elgin kiziley plays (one of my favourite players although everyone badmouths him) - - - do you
know what I mean about this turkish old school? You dont hear it too much in turkey anymore - but I love it! To my ears it is neither cinucen nor
targan--- nor yorgo. . . if you or anyone know what i am talking about, i wonder if we could trace that style back somehow?
|
|
|
katakofka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 811
Registered: 1-24-2008
Location: Cleveland
Member Is Offline
Mood: Gypsy
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by Edward Powell
would you be able to point out any clips of someone other than jamil who plays in targan style (actually jamil is NOT targan style is he? even though
he studied with targan)---
|
Right, jamil tried to do something new but you see Targan in Jamil's compostion, such as the caprice written by jamil. The high pitch scale playing in
that caprice is from Targan technical development.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SJUevDfpHk&feature=related
This piece has a major impact especially on the style of Nasser shamma and followers.
Regarding the turkish issues you're mentioning I have little knowledge regarding oud or music school in turkey. Thanks to the youtube I am learning a
lot!
|
|
|
katakofka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 811
Registered: 1-24-2008
Location: Cleveland
Member Is Offline
Mood: Gypsy
|
|
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16GDjKRDKlA&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhh6m9Hd4P0&feature=related
Raed Khoshaba, iraqi player, playing Targan, "the dancing child". Played also by Nasser shamma in here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uyy3bMJuZ0&feature=related
|
|
|
Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
Registered: 1-20-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: g'oud
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by katakofka
| Quote: | Originally posted by Edward Powell
would you be able to point out any clips of someone other than jamil who plays in targan style (actually jamil is NOT targan style is he? even though
he studied with targan)---
|
Right, jamil tried to do something new but you see Targan in Jamil's compostion, such as the caprice written by jamil. The high pitch scale playing in
that caprice is from Targan technical development.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SJUevDfpHk&feature=related
This piece has a major impact especially on the style of Nasser shamma and followers.
Regarding the turkish issues you're mentioning I have little knowledge regarding oud or music school in turkey. Thanks to the youtube I am learning a
lot! |
Yes... so now I am beginning to see where it all comes from. Just to inject my own opinion here (which is already obvious) - this is a direction of
oud playing that doesn't touch me at all on an emotional level. I remember well the first time I heard the oud - it was a Syrian player playing old
style taqasim... ripped my heart right out and I immediately knew I would learn that instrument... I think it had a lot to do with the microtones.
What irritates me about this Jamil style is the total absense of microtones. It is almost like they decided that the microtones were primative or
rough - perhaps because europeans had rejected them....?
Having said all of that, Jamil was the second oud player I ever heard - he was playing Huseini taksim and that also blew me away-----
|
|
|
Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
Registered: 1-20-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: g'oud
|
|
This is all really so fascinating... the oud's history, and the development of all these different styles.
I really didn't realise that in fact most of it originated in Turkey. That the Turks brought oud and makam system with their Ottoman empire to the
Arab world including Iraq. I have thought that it was the reverse... that the thing originated perhaps in Iraq and went West to Egypt and north-west
to Turkey. So in fact "Iraqi-style" is actually Targan's Turkish style...
I am curious how the Egyptian style developed. The microtonal placement and maqam system is clear. But I wonder about this Egyptian stylistic thing
with the fast right-hand risha tremolo - - - where did this come from? The Turks don't do it - - - - but the Persians do this LIKE CRAZY! It sounds to
me like this is a Persian influence that somehow leapfrogged over Iraq to Egypt and Syria!!!!!??
|
|
|
Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
Registered: 1-20-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: g'oud
|
|
...just another side thought...
you asked if in Turkey nowadays they are playing Targan or Cinucen style mostly...
I can say that I had never even heard targan's name until one night in Istanbul I went to a concert which was in memorium to this man Targan. They had
several oud players perform supposedly in Targan's style. Well, this style didn't sound anything at all like the style i had grown accustomed to
hearing and LOVING in Istanbul.
My guess is that Targan left Turkey to open the school in Iraqi in 1936... and with him he took his style, and implanted it in Iraq (leaving the
Turks to be influenced by Cinucen and Yorgos). Now this Targan influence has left Iraq and has now been implanted in Egypt via Shamma.
|
|
|
SamirCanada
Moderator
Posts: 3404
Registered: 6-4-2004
Member Is Offline
|
|
Dont forget about the influence the music coming from of Syria, Lebanon, Palestine and Jordan
I dont have much time to elaborate my ideas right now. I hope to pitch in a bit latter.
I just wanted to say that this thread is fascinating! Keep it up fellas.
|
|
|
katakofka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 811
Registered: 1-24-2008
Location: Cleveland
Member Is Offline
Mood: Gypsy
|
|
It might be misleading taking targan as the only influence in Iraq. I don't think it's true and this brings me to the other issue: the turk developed
a lot the middle eastern music since they govern the arab world for 500 years. But before that in the arab world, iraq, syria, lebanon..etc, there was
something highly developed that I guess the turk took and arrange on their way. During the Omayyiyyin and the abbasiid area, this is before the
turkish domination, arabs developed many...just think about the Mouwashahaat, that are related to the abbasid area (baghdad was their capital).
What's happening now does not really reflect the historical truth. Colonisation, western and turkish, had a major impact on the arabic cutlure
including the music. The problem you are facing in egypt is that there is no government policy to let the egyptian arabic style prevail. You don't see
what you might have seen in Turkey where they preserve a lot their own culture and style in music. It might explain why Cunecen is more appreciated in
Turkey more that targan, because the former is more close to the Turkish culture, more authentic.
|
|
|
Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
Registered: 1-20-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: g'oud
|
|
please Sami... pitch in when you have time - - -
oooops... looks like i need another trip! to syria etc :-)
Yes, Kata, you are hitting it on the head it seems.
...and yes the Turks are very patriotic, whereas patriotism seems not to exist in egypt - - - - afterall, what IS an egyptian?? seems a big
collection of diverse peoples (as does Turkey but to a lesser degree).
|
|
|
MatthewW
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1031
Registered: 11-5-2006
Location: right here
Member Is Offline
Mood: Al Salam
|
|
hi guys, very interesting and informative. I wonder if your in- depth and rather academic exchanges and opinions on the historical and contemporary
influences within and without turkish/egyptian/Arabic/islamic oud musics might be better suited to a separate thread, where others can join in and/or
just read and so let it roll on?
This discussion seems to be taking on a life of its own!
cheers, MW
|
|
|
katakofka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 811
Registered: 1-24-2008
Location: Cleveland
Member Is Offline
Mood: Gypsy
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by Edward Powell
I really didn't realise that in fact most of it originated in Turkey. That the Turks brought oud and makam system with their Ottoman empire to the
Arab world including Iraq. I have thought that it was the reverse... that the thing originated perhaps in Iraq and went West to Egypt and north-west
to Turkey. So in fact "Iraqi-style" is actually Targan's Turkish style...
|
I am back to that point because I felt I mislead you A huge reference about
arabic music before the ottoman empire is the book of "al aghaani" for "abu el faraj al asfahaani" that we must mention. This is a large volume about
1000 pages describing in details, rythm and makaams and many others issues related to music. This was during the abbasid area. take a look if you're
interrested http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbasid. What you had in mind was true tho
Before the islamic empires, jews and christians in the middle east have developed some sorts of makams in their religious cultures but they were
simple makams in opposite to the composed makams that we found in the Islamic and turkish culture. They were basically 3 to 4 notes including of
course many quarter and microtones. Some ethnomusicologists have proposed that in the middle east people are still using the same music since ages
after discovering the simple makams that became afterward composed makams.
|
|
|
katakofka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 811
Registered: 1-24-2008
Location: Cleveland
Member Is Offline
Mood: Gypsy
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by MatthewW
hi guys, very interesting and informative. I wonder if your in- depth and rather academic exchanges and opinions on the historical and contemporary
influences within and without turkish/egyptian/Arabic/islamic oud musics might be better suited to a separate thread, where others can join in and/or
just read and so let it roll on?
This discussion seems to be taking on a life of its own!
cheers, MW |
I'll leave that for Edward
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
..
4
5
6
7
8
9 |
![[*]](images/xmbprobrown/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
