| Pages:
1
..
5
6
7
8
9 |
Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
Registered: 1-20-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: g'oud
|
|
probably for me right now I am cairo-centered, and this discussion - at least for me - is aimed at understanding the roots of the egyptian style of
oud playing... it all seems to fit in with the general topic of this thread.
but I am not against another thread popping up to discuss these things - - - why not?!
another arguement for keeping it all in one place - for selfish reasons - is that I am experiencing a grand education here, and a kind of
metamorphasis... and having a place to jot down my reflections, questions, and discoveries - it can be interesting to look back after it is over and
see how 3 months in Cairo can really transform one's "oud-life".
But I see the point that there starts to be a LOT of stuff in this thread and might end up being sort of "hidden" from those casually browsing the
index. . . . .
so let's just let things go as they go... I will keep checking the general posts for interesting things...
|
|
|
Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
Registered: 1-20-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: g'oud
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by katakofka
| Quote: | Originally posted by Edward Powell
I really didn't realise that in fact most of it originated in Turkey. That the Turks brought oud and makam system with their Ottoman empire to the
Arab world including Iraq. I have thought that it was the reverse... that the thing originated perhaps in Iraq and went West to Egypt and north-west
to Turkey. So in fact "Iraqi-style" is actually Targan's Turkish style...
|
hmmmmm..... this is all very very interesting. We will all be ethnomusicologists before this is thru
could not connect with WIKI for that reference book - - - pity, that sound amazing.
so, what I am now getting is that makams did not ORIGINATE in Turkey [anyway, it is also clear that some maqams are clearly Arabic maqams since they
are not found in the Turkish system - and vise versa)... but what perhaps you are saying is that the concept and practice of the
"sophisticated/complex/composed" makam is coming from Turkey (and perhaps it came TO Turkey from Persia?? A whole new topic - - - and something else
I am both curious and ignorant about... IS THE REAL ROOT OF THIS MUSIC (meaning: the sophisticated makam, not the simple folk makam) if fact coming
from Persia??]
...later I would like to explore the topic of how makam (probably via the Persian dashgah) influenced the north Indian raga system and vise
versa...
I am back to that point because I felt I mislead you  A huge reference about
arabic music before the ottoman empire is the book of "al aghaani" for "abu el faraj al asfahaani" that we must mention. This is a large volume about
1000 pages describing in details, rythm and makaams and many others issues related to music. This was during the abbasid area. take a look if you're
interrested http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbasid. What you had in mind was true tho
Before the islamic empires, jews and christians in the middle east have developed some sorts of makams in their religious cultures but they were
simple makams in opposite to the composed makams that we found in the Islamic and turkish culture. They were basically 3 to 4 notes including of
course many quarter and microtones. Some ethnomusicologists have proposed that in the middle east people are still using the same music since ages
after discovering the simple makams that became afterward composed makams. |
|
|
|
katakofka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 811
Registered: 1-24-2008
Location: Cleveland
Member Is Offline
Mood: Gypsy
|
|
Edward: the book I mentioned, in which the essence of arabic music is described, is for abu al faraj al asfahaani. Asfahani means that he's from
Asfahan, persia, iran . Definitely the islamic empire took from the Persian
culture. Like any other invaders, islamic or turkish didn't build from scratch. They used what existed, what they found in place, then they arranged,
created new ways, which became afterward their own way.
One place that you should visit during your quest and to have a clear picture is Iran, a mysterious, extremely cultural rich place.
|
|
|
Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
Registered: 1-20-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: g'oud
|
|
Yes... of course! Being reminded of the history and all of the empires clarifies it a lot. Obviously the empire stimulates mass shifts and movements
of people and particular "perfered" cultural idioms - - - just as today the American "empire" is moving, not necessarily people, but "prefered"
culture to all corners of the globe.
Also the movement of slaves from Africa to America caused an astonishing development in the music.
So.... sure, before every empire there existed a developed music. Let's trace it back:
-now: American empire
-last 100 years: European empires
-500 years: Turkish empire
-700: Arab (Saudi) Islamic empire
-??? now I'm lost ??? too lazy to look it up... ROMAN
--???BYZANTINE
--???GREEK (Alexander)
--???and of course the PERSIAN EMPIRE.
- - -even further back were empires in mesopotania and egypt, but these did not expand too much i think
I remember my friend (and great tombak player) Pedram from iran talking about how the Arabs came to Persian and F***ed up everything. Persians
consider the Arabs very primative and rough in most respects (or am I wrong??). Pedram at least greatly resented his country having Islam imposes on
it - saying that Islam has only brought restriction and conflicts - and that original Persian culture has nothing to do with Islam.
But anyway, getting back to trying to understand where Egyptian oud style comes from, yes, obviously before the Ottoman Empire was the Arab Islamic
empire and perhaps during this empire the cultural exchange went more in REVERSE. Since for sure the Persian had a more highly developed culture than
the Bedouin Arabs, the Arabs probably TOOK the Persian culture rather than the other way around.
In fact, what I heard is that originally the oud came from Persian, and in Persia it is called BARBAT. So appearantly during the Arab empire the Arabs
discovered this cool instrument call the Barbat and took it home and adapted it a bit into the first oud. So in fact maybe the oud actually did exist
in Arabia before Turkey? Or probably what happened is that the oud was taken from Persia and then spread around throughout the entire Islamic empire
during it's reign. ---and of course, it seems likely that this right hand fast risha tremolo probably came directly with it! ---but interesting
that the Turks rejected this tremolo technique.
|
|
|
Ararat66
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1025
Registered: 11-14-2005
Location: Portsmouth, UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: mellow yellow
|
|
Hi Edward
I would second Katakofka's view of Iran. I went many times as a child up till the revolution in 1979, it is where my mother was born - she is
Armenian. I loved going there, and the friendliness and wicked humour of that region. It is a very particular place, little known but hugely
influencial. It is also has some of the most beautiful landscapes on earth, and astonishing architecture (although the modern concrete creations only
serve to emphasise the wisdom of the ancients!!).
Below the political surface is a poetic and witty cultural beauty that I think has deep and ancient roots, embedded in the landscape and the stars
that are so bright away from the cities.
There are interesting leaps in the musical influence - there are strong connections with Armenian music, particularly the slower soulful minatures you
may have heard on Duduk, and also the really wild Azeri dance music. You mentioned the 'way out' playing that certain obscure maqams open up earlier
- well you should hear some of this stuff!! Once you become attuned to it it makes perfect sense.
The link to raga is really easy to hear also, and Afghanistan which borders Iran to the east forms another musical step to India.
BUT - you are in EGYPT ... haha I almost forgot. As my Buddhist teachers used to advise, enjoy the place you are in for you have everthing you will
ever need right now
Leon
|
|
|
Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
Registered: 1-20-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: g'oud
|
|
Hi Leon
Yes... you have been reading my thinking! ...actually in the last while I have been enjoying myself so much and especially the contact with cultures
I've never before contacted directly - it has inspired me to travel further.
At the moment, with my visa situation in the EU (where I "live"), means that every 3 months I MUST leave the EU for 3 months before they will let me
back in and "home" again... since I currently "live" with my girlfriend in Czech. So until I can resolve my residency there, and as long as I still
have a few bucks, I simply MUST travel --- or go back to Canada.
I am pulled in two possible directions:
-either Africa
-or Persia
either to go South and inject my musical experience with GROOVE!
or East, and continue to explore refinements in sophisticated MELODY.
Probably I am not yet ready for Africa, or maybe it is not yet ready for me. My feeling is that I might want to wait for it to develop and rejuvinate
a bit more--- I know there are some music school just starting up across Africa (Mali in particular)... and maybe it needs more time...
...also maybe I feel like my "makam quest" is not yet finished and Iran is probably the major mystery link. . . . afterall, my own music now is a
marriage btw raga and makam, so it is clear that there is a black hole in the middle - Persian dashgah!
One thing has confused me... ok, there is a clear division btw north and south Indian music, and the reason is that the south was not affected by
the invasions from the west. Now they never say concretely who was invading india from the west - usually they just say 'central asian arians'... so
I guess this means Persian, Turkmens, Afghans... etc... but probably mostly Persian.
On the other hand we hear that in India before the 250 years of British rule, there was 450 years of Moghul rule. So who are these Moghuls ---
supposedly these are the 'central asians'. So I am guessing that what we are talking about is the HUNS (who went as far as HUNgary and orginated that
race there) --- you know, those incredibly violent tribe from Mongolia!
So perhaps the Mongolian first took over Persia, and then came down to North India....? ok, I'm confused. . . .) but starting to get the picture.
Musically we can see the difference btw north and south Indian music. Carnatic (south) is very composed and bouncy and a bit light, whereas Hindustani
music is much more improvised and often very slow and contemplative (probably THIS is the Persian influence) --- well..... TAR, SETAR, SITAR, RABAB,
SAROD... hey, the connection is OBVIOUS!
Of course, about 150 years ago in the region Indian music and culture was considered the highest thing and therefore one King imported from India to
Afghanistan hundreds of Indian musicians and teachers and set it all up in Kabul. This is why when you go now to Kabul and check out how they play -
actually what you see is what Indian music was like 150 years ago, because after it was imported there, it was cut off from it's source and therefore
stopped developing - - -
----but getting back to the other thing I'm confused about. When you look at the map, the entire region from Egypt to India is connected... but in
terms of music, although clearly there is an obvious connection btw Iran and India, still the connection btw Egypt and Iran is much stronger. Many of
the maqams and dashgah are just the same... humayun, mahur, rast.... etc etc etc.
So where is this breaking point on the map? Where is the line, or the region which divides these two worlds: the Raga world, and the Makam world?
From what you just wrote you imply that Persian music is great influenced by either Armenia or Azeri.. We know that Afghans and central asians always
had music but these are mountain lands and the indiginous music is more simply and folky --- again, SIMPLE MAKAMS as opposed to "composed classical"
makams.
So what I am hearing is that perhaps the classical source of Persian music is coming from the north-west region - and somewhat divorced from the
south-east of Iran??
This would explain a lot! Because otherwise, if in the southeast of iran is an old and very rich classical music culture - then it is hard to see how
this would not have mixed more with indian music since they are close geographically.
The problem is actually that modern political maps are very inaccurate in terms of cultural representation! Can you imagine, if you know very little
about the Soviet Union, or Russia, and just looked at a map to try to figure out what are the influence on Russian culture??? Of course, Russia is a
totally 'lop-sided' country (as are most countys)... with the focal point being the capital city way over to the West. Same thing with Canada!
NOTHING is happening in the north... but look at a map and the ingorant person has not way of knowing this.
So this is way I have always been confused about Iran.
My guess is that the fine art culture is centered in the north west, and the south east is mostly desert and therefore inhibited exchange with India.
. . .
I gotta go there and find these things out.
Just another side note - - - one time while hanging out the Ross Daly one day at his museum on Crete, I asked him if he regrets now having this museum
and school to take care of and if he would like to travel again WHERE WOULD HE GO. He immediately said that the only place he would now really like to
go would be to Azerbaijan.
|
|
|
Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
Registered: 1-20-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: g'oud
|
|
ok... seems I answered my own question... looking at a map of Iran we can see that most of the cities are huddled in the northwest, as I was
guessing. Not much happening in the southeast. East of Esfahan looks pretty unpopulated... so it seems that this region between Esfahan and
Lahore is the BIG GAP between raga-land and makam-land. I guess there is a big desert there. . . . . . ?
yes... looking at a map now I can see it clearly. The east of Iran is only desert and there are very few towns there. Afghanistan is full of
mountains... so in fact there is a vast region between India and Iran which seems for the most part uninhabited impassible (at least in the old days)
- so THIS is that gap.
Now looking again at the middle-east on the map ("makam-land") in fact it makes a very nice circle from Cairo, to Istanbul, around to Armenia, then
western Iran - down thru Iraq, Saudi etc. It is a nice little circle, very much removed geographically from India, which is it's own little
circle!
guess that is why we call it the MIDDLE EAST! ...and the FAR EAST. ...although the term "far east" include a much larger and less specified area.
|
|
|
Ararat66
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1025
Registered: 11-14-2005
Location: Portsmouth, UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: mellow yellow
|
|
Hi Ed
I wasn't really implying that Persian music was influenced by Armenian and Azeri music but that these flavours can be heard in al three types, and by
extension these types of threads of influence mean that you tend to get centres of musicality crystalising strongly or weakly in different places.
You ought to listen to Chechen and Ingush music if you get chance if you are interested in getting a sense of musical gradation across the Caucausus
from Turkey, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Iran (and all the others!!), over to Russia.
You may well find that particularly in mountainous places you get huge differences from one series of valleys to another, and that the incluences go
down river and mix in the plains. The area of transcaucasia, Northern Iran, Eastern Turkey and Northern Syria are very mountainous and similar in
geography to the area of what is now Northern Pakistan from where it is widely accepted that the roots of Vedanta grew and eventually spread its
influence far west, East and particularly South, forming the basis from which Budhism, Hinduism, Jainism etc flourished.
I'm no historian, so this is just a sense of what I have picked up from travels and yoga practice etc, but I know that trying to categorize influences
becomes very quickly impossible - but there are definate nodal points where the confluence of influence and circumstance cause distinctive (musical)
cultures to be expressed.
This is one interesting thread
Thanks for letting the cat out of the bag
Leon
|
|
|
Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
Registered: 1-20-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: g'oud
|
|
Hi Leon...
I am going to check out the music from Caucasia as you suggest - I know nothing from there!! Nothing! ...and I should, being a "caucasian"!
Before I talk about what happened today I want to mention that I was with my French friend Frank today - he is a great guy, nay student, very good
musician, intelligent. I was with Frank at the H. Shaheen concert - the one that I walked out of half way thru. So to be objective and fair to Hazem I
should mention that Frank thought Hazem's concert was fantastic! He loved the music. ...so there you go... everything is just a matter of taste and
opinion.
Today I was with Antar... and was discussing all this history and origins of influences. He corrected me in that the Islamic Empire was 1400 years
ago - not 700 years ago - - - I got confused because it STARTED IN 700AD.
Antar does not think that the Arabic fast risha tremolo comes from Persian influence - he thinks it comes from Africa and also from Andalusian
influences. He said that before 1930 nobody was doing the fast tremolo in Egypt.
We were talking about ZIRYAB... it seems that Ziryab (950 years ago) was a brilliant student of the most prominent musician in Persia at the time.
Ziryab was a great oud player, however he decided that he was fed up with quartertones (komas etc), and wanted to make the music a 12 tone music (like
the way Indian music is today--- 12 tones JUST INTONATION... not 12 tone equaltemperament like the piano). However his grand teacher did not agree and
wanted to keep the music full of microtones since the microtones are so characteristic of Persian music. So they met with the King and both the Kind
and the Teacher agreed that if Ziryab continued to insist on doing away with microtones, then he music live in exile from Persia - so they sent him
away.
Mostly Ziryab wanted to start putting frets on ouds, and develop music in this direction. So they sent him to Morocco and Spain... and he continued
his musical efforts there which resulted in the first fretted lutes which became the first guitars - and of course the first Andalousian music.
- - -
Walking with Antar and Frank across the bridge to the Opera, we stopped for a while and enjoyed the view of the Nile. I began asking Antar about these
influences from Iran etc... he said that of course the music of Iran is happening in the West part of the country and there is not much going on in
the east... We then talked about these differences in TERMINOLOGY... for ex. Makam, Maqam, Mugam, Dash-gah.... etc. Antar said that they all mean
the same thing. He also said that in fact the letter Q ought to be pronounced G... and therefore maqam = mugam... He said also that the Iranians
changed to name of makam to dash-gah simply to be different, and try to distinguish themselves.
He said, if I remember correctly, that the original work for maqam was CHED (as in Chedaraban)... CHED appearantly means "the way of tuning".
Then after a few hundred years the word for maqam became DARB (as in DARBUKA) DARB means "to hit".
Then later maqams became maqams and the Persians began calling them Dash-gah.
- - -
Then we made our way to the Opera house and we met with a man who was to give a mansour nay to Frank. By chance we also met there a man who
appearantly is the top and best classical singer in Egypt - Antar introduced us to him as such. The man, who was very humbly dressed, immediately
agreed that he is the best singer in Egypt- and went on to tell me that the Ministry of culture is now building for him a school of vocal music along
the lines of the ARABOUDHOUSE... this will be the HOUSE OF THE SONG... and will be much larger than the OUDHOUSE. He showed my many pictured on his
mobile phone, and the place looks amazing - very near to OUDHOUSE also. He said that it will open in about 3 months time.
This man (I forget his name) went on to begin to tell and explain to me about the REAL system of the REAL Arabic classical orchestra music. He said
that what is going on normally at the moment with what the state orchestras are doing is total nonsence.
He said there are 3 schools for presenting orchestra Arabic music:-
1- Tunisian school
2- Cairo school
3- Syrian school
He said the Cairo school (very similar to the Syrian school) is the most important, and the Tunisian school is totally different... I continued to
question him since this topic fascinated me very much - - HOWEVER I WAS NOT REALLY THINKING ABOUT THE IMPLICATIONS OF WHAT HE WAS TALKING ABOUT...
slowly I began to suspect that this man had some strange conceptions and ways of thinking in his mind - - I had not suspected anything previously
since Antar had introduced him so highly...
but at this point Antar noticed my line of questioning, and quietly informed me that this man is one of those who is responsible for destroying the
real Arabic music.
Because the concept of ORCHESTRA music is in fact the antithesis of what Arab music is all about! Orchestra presentation is something they borrowed
from the West. The problem with Orchestration is that it work great for Western music because the beauty of Western music is in the HARMONY. The
beauty of Eastern music is in the improvisation and in how a written melody is decorated. So an orchestra will greatly reduce the amount of
improvisation and of course if you have 40 members of an orchestra all decorating a written melody as they like it would be a disaster... so the
result of orchestrating arab music is to totally flatten and kill it.
I had thought this guy was talking about some ancient traditions but in fact what he was talking about were simply things which have developed in the
past several decades! ...we with this made clear, we politedly terminated the conversation and moved on.......
|
|
|
JT
Unregistered
Posts: N/A
Registered: N/A
Member Is Offline
|
|
Hello Edward,
Great to see you doing well in Cairo. Although, I dont like implicating myself in such discussions. I really really have to ask about source material
here. There are many legends and stories. And to say Zeryab, a man that lived so long ago wanted to make music 12 tone blah blah etc, is a bit absurd
if its not backed up by historical source material. There is legend he was killed because he wouldnt play the Kings oud which was far inferior to
his..this is legend of a great musician. But to really state the above really has to be backed up. This is cafe music talk.
This brings me to a topic which Ive written. In my university honours thesis I wrote a paper called "Conservatism, Western Influences and
Contradiction". I am willing to get hammered for this I guess...please dont
But Arabic musicians love to talk. They are always unhappy with something and fair enough with alot of the pop music that doesnt agree with the past.
The fact of the matter is, its what suits the musician you're talking too. I dont see the music now as garbage, the inhabitants are different people,
different lives, different economy and music has always been a reflection of the time we live in. Im not against the music of today, but it is a
representation of our time. Also, alot of the stuff that is happening is because the people incharge give power to those that are not suitable, and
that is also an issue. The Oud House for instance is not run by an Egyptian oud player which I find is odd. But I would think if you want to teach
Egyptian oud, you would imply an Egyptian to do this, no? (I have nothing against Oustaz Nasseer, dont get me wrong)
Their are pros and cons to everything I guess.
We cant even really classify the term 'classical'. This to some people is samai' etc to others its "Oum Kalsoum" (love you Souma!), to others its
"Mouwashahat". I personally think there is no definition. The definition has been lost, not the music. Orchestral Arabic music, already there is an
issue. Although I love Arabic orchestras of today, really in the past they didnt exist. A takht existed, 2-5 musicians, this grew and became grander
and grander and now its a different way of presenting music. So I dont think theres a right way...most of them have keyboards and electric guitar
aswell, Im sure these didnt exist at time of Ziryab or before 1930 for that matter.
But the other issue is these musicians who claim to be purist (Im picking on no one, this is general), have alot of contradiction. Alot will say the
state of classical music is doomed and when they get on the stage play music that is not really classical, or there taqasim will include a blues scale
or something not Eastern to crowd please or to show they listen to other music. They will play the favourites. If it really comes down to it forms
like Longa are not traditional arabic, but its a form that has made its way through.
There is no practice what you preach in Egypt. Music constantly evolves, if its for the good or bad, thats not for me to say, But this hypocricy has
to be addressed. Its something that really confuses me when I talk with musicians in Egypt. I think to be a well rounded musician you have to listen
alot and by listening, you cant help but be inspired by others and other musics. This is a good thing. The way I see it music is a language. If you
play the oud (as an example) you're having a conversation in Arabic and occassionaly you my put a few words or sentences in English, but this should
no way dominate your taqasim. I only think this is a problem when you Start a taqasim in English and have a few words of Arabic.
You cant tell me the music we hear today or heard on recordings 80 years ago were like what Ziryab played, theres no proof of this. So all these
musicians who write albums based on manuscripts they found centuries ago is all speculation, unfortuantely we will never know. Theres no music
notation like the west, and unlike the west we really dont have a great guide for how the music sounded of the past. I think the closest we can get is
Islamic or Christian chant from the area, and even within this it must have evolved.
I rememeber speaking to an oud player who was so patriotic about classical and dismissed Shammas way of playing, yet this is where he learnt. And when
I went to his recital it was like listening to Shamma, so this confuses me. I asked him later, why are you learning with him then, he said because he
has a good technique...Unfortunately these "classical" music authorities appoint themselves and everybody claims to have there own way, but really
offer no solutions. Before we can look into the classical arabic music, we really have to define what is classical? I think this should be a
conference. Then we can start discussing and talk about the deteriation of the music or evolution for some.
I think also, oud timbre is also a factor. Many of the Egyptian players play moveable bridge Iraqi style ouds. Playing a traditional Egyptian taqasim
here, may already be dismissed by the purist as the oud timbral qualities and even appearance may not suit the solo. I have had this happen when I was
with a friend who claims to be a real listener dismissed a solo for a young oud player which I deemed to have a really beautiful arabic phrasing, as
'not arabic' because he was playing an Iraqi style oud. So this is even a further issue to be discussed. Man, Im confused...
Things should and have to co-exist, infact they do. An artist should not forget the roots of the music but should be free to deliver what they like.
You either eat from the food or not. You can go to a pop or rock concert or choose not too. Music is take it or leave it.
I for instance am an Australian oud player, my style is Australian. I love Egypt, I love my roots, I love the oud masters, but I think my style is the
product of my environment. Im an Egyptian Australian oud player I guess
Musical environment is important, and this has to brought into account.
Music is for everybody. You can take it or leave. Offer solutions or not, theres way to much talk in general and unfortunately alot of it is a
political problem or a rivalry between another musician. Musicians there have to survive like anywhere and have to offer what the audience wants in
many ways.
Im confused writing this... Just dribble from me, but its cold here in Paris and
this has warmed me up Im sorry Ive gone on this massive rant, I can delete it if
you guys like? Maybe nothing is classical anymore?
Best regards,
JT
|
|
|
Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
Registered: 1-20-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: g'oud
|
|
Hey Joe
Thanks for your time... this was a very enlightening rant more
please!
There are many topics you have touched on - - just one of them, you ask: "what is classical?"
I remember having this conversation many times with Ross Daly... and he would always say that with Oriental music these terms classical/folk should
be dropped because they are inaccurate. He suggested that they should be replaced with the terms URBAN/RURAL.
|
|
|
Ararat66
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1025
Registered: 11-14-2005
Location: Portsmouth, UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: mellow yellow
|
|
Hello Joe and Edward
Well I think Edward is on a quest and you don't pretend to know all the facts, It would be great if Michael Moussa could chip in, he has a really
interesting knowledge of the development of the oud. Awad has footage of Michael's talk on this but it is probably too long to post.
I agree with your sentiment Joe, and was trying to express something of this when I said ...
'I'm no historian, so this is just a sense of what I have picked up from travels and yoga practice etc, but I know that trying to categorize
influences becomes very quickly impossible - but there are definate nodal points where the confluence of influence and circumstance cause distinctive
(musical) cultures to be expressed.'
The problem is that just as people can get racist and dogmatic about being 'British', 'Persian', 'Russian', 'French' and all te others, so the same
root of fear can reflect in music. I think it is good for some to preserve and express particular forms of music but when they denigrate those that
take a more eclectic approach (and vice versa), then it all goes pear shaped. What you said Joe about power and influence is really interesting.
I feel that what you are doing with this thread is to throw open your curiosity and obvious enthusiasm as to the myriad pathways that culture
takes.
BTW I would imagine that the Egyptian use of fast tremelo seems more stylistically like an African and Andalusian influence - the Persian style is
very different, much more repetitive and built up layer by layer into an overall patterned (like their carpets). There is also a Coptic influence in
Egypt, and from my few conversations with Michael last year, this sounds pretty astonishing. He mentioned a form of liturgy of astonishing internal
architecture that encapsulates all the nuances of a modal system very similar to Arabic maqam.
Last thing is that in the spirit of Joe's coments, I would say that one of the biggest challenges of learning to play oud has been one of cultural
relevance to myself. I was drwn to it for obvious reasons of past familly roots but I grew up in the UK and have been into every type of music that
there is, the UK is an amazing cultural melting pot - even though it is very cold and snowy at the moment I've played guitar for far longer than oud, and with guitar there is not the same difficulty because it has been
expressed in such a varied range of styles ... imagine someone saying only 'classical' guitar style was the true way - you would just think they were
nuts.
Hey Joe you are right it does warm you up - I'd just got in from taking the kids to school on their sledge!! Please don't delete your post, your
thesis sounds interesting - maybe you could tell us more.
Thanks Edward for you creative openess.
Leon
|
|
|
MatthewW
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1031
Registered: 11-5-2006
Location: right here
Member Is Offline
Mood: Al Salam
|
|
Hi all- very interesting thread, open to many interpretations, points of view, debates, etc.
one question put forward: So where is this breaking point on the map? Where is the line, or the region which divides these two worlds: the Raga world,
and the Makam world?
My thoughts are that when we start to look at the wider picture then we need to consider the men and women of both the Indian raga and Maqam schools
who traveled on to Spain and took their cultural and musical heritage with them. Andalucia, as Leon mentions with reference to tremelo, was definitely
a great musical melting pot where the raga and maqam met and were explored. I think what went on in Spain many centuries ago was something of a
musical breaking point whose influnce is apparent today in the playing of many oudies.
The historical exchanges on oud schools/styles/players of the past in this thread are very informative and helpful in understanding the musical links
from the old to the new, from the past to the present.
I also agree totally with JT, that in our present day anyone should be able to play and express whatever they feel on the oud, to 'deliver what they
like' as he puts it, whether 'old school maqam' or 'new world maqam/raga/jazz/ambiant/blues/mixed bag'; to let their heart and soul and a spirit of
musical adventure guide their fingers, and then let the listener decide if it speaks to them. Easier said than done. JT is an oud player who I find is
able to do this well. regards
MW
|
|
|
Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
Registered: 1-20-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: g'oud
|
|
One thing I would like... if someone is able and willing, is to suggest some clips which accurately illustrate both:
1- music from the Caucaus region - (all I was able to find was a bunch of accordian music)
2- Andalucian music - (Matt suggests that there is a mix there of Raga and Makam, but in my own VERY limited exposure to that music it seemed to me
that they had just flatted out all the microtones.... hense I hastily therefore decided that I didn't like it and sort of 'wrote it off' my list of
interesting musics to persue. Maybe I need to reconsider that judgement?
|
|
|
MatthewW
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1031
Registered: 11-5-2006
Location: right here
Member Is Offline
Mood: Al Salam
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by Edward Powell
2- Andalucian music - (Matt suggests that there is a mix there of Raga and Makam, but in my own VERY limited exposure to that music it seemed to me
that they had just flatted out all the microtones.... hense I hastily therefore decided that I didn't like it and sort of 'wrote it off' my list of
interesting musics to persue. Maybe I need to reconsider that judgement? |
Hi Edward. I didn't actually use the word 'mix', but what I wished to convey was that the influences of Indian raga and maqam helped to shape the
musics within Andalucia, and so to my mind Spain/Andalucia is a pretty good contender for that 'breaking point' you refer to. Flamenco ( with its
rather flattened use of those microtones when played on the guitar, but still there in cante jondo) is the most obvious or commercial musical form to
rise out of those influences, and which seems to be happily played in some manner or other by oudies, for better or for worse.
I am not an ethno-musicoligist, but the music and instruments of Islam which entered India ( Turks and Persians during the Delhi sultanate, c.12th
century) apparently made some impact there. We then find musicians migrating back and forth between Hindu and Muslim courts as the fortunes of local
rajas and najabs went up and down. From there some migrated on to Andalucia, where those influences were shaped further and again travelled on.
On a more general note, to my ears I believe I hear influences of the raga within the maqam framework in some contemporary oud playing. Perhaps
someone out there can add further musical references? cheers, MW
|
|
|
katakofka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 811
Registered: 1-24-2008
Location: Cleveland
Member Is Offline
Mood: Gypsy
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by JT
Maybe nothing is classical anymore?
JT |
It's true, so vague this word "classical". There is a general tendency about oud players, and this to avoid being "classical" they are insisting on 2
major scales, Nahwand and Ajam. However, when doing lot of Nahawand and Major scales in many cases the music generated resembles Western music, Tango,
Spanish or flamenco. This is the general perception I am getting when I listen to players influenced by Bashir-Shamma's style. This was not the case
of Farid Ghosn because he was always introducing during his flamenco oud microtones (usually in his flamenco you hear some bayaat or saba).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rr-7975Ipl0
Classical, as I see it, is doing similar music or takasims to Alsombati, Farido, or al Asabji. These great names have worked on many makams having
microtones. Just think about the Trademark Siga of Alsombati. Why these names have worked on Bayati, saba, Rast..etc. ? The essence of middle eastern,
arabic music is based on microtones giving arabic music its characteristic. On the other hand, there is a general tendency claiming when playing
microtones one cannot avoid being "classical" meaning doing similar music to Alsombati e.g.This is a totally false statement in my opinion.
My guess is to exploit to the extreme oriental makams (siga, bayati, rast, saba..etc) with unusual rythms. E.g, composing on bayati or Siga with a 7/8
mesures, or 5/4 or..etc. I am sure one can come with something new, "not classical" (2/4 or 4/4).
Listen carefully to this music composed by Ziad. It's a jazzy music but on bayaati. He makes the Guitar base playing quarter tones as well as the
trombone. The music spans min 1:45 to 4:15 in the link below.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJ3qYtfTGpo&feature=channel
Do you guys see this is oriental or western music ?
|
|
|
Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
Registered: 1-20-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: g'oud
|
|
I would call this Western... but borrowing some microtones from the maqam. I really enjoyed this music, it is one of the best fusions I have seen,
and in fact the only one I have heard that uses microtones... FINALLY!!!!! ...this is exactly the direction I think EastWest fusion could be
doing a lot more of.
Makes me happy because I can see now that I am not just a cynical a...hole negative about all Western things ...I think there are so many great things from the West, but I get irritated when it seems that the fusions are so
often just taking the worst elements from each culture, rather than the best - - - as we can see on this clip in my opinion...
THANKS!
|
|
|
MatthewW
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1031
Registered: 11-5-2006
Location: right here
Member Is Offline
Mood: Al Salam
|
|
hi katakofka - I would also call this western music. What is interesting is that you will find that John Coltrane, Miles Davis, Jimmy Garrison (
bass),Pharoah Sanders and other jazz pioneers of the late 1950s -1960s also experimented with various forms of musical expression including modal and
microtones- all done with western reed or brass instruments like sax, trumpet, trombone,upright fretless bass but they just didn't have an oud player
in the line up! Ziad may have even been inspired by those guys.
|
|
|
katakofka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 811
Registered: 1-24-2008
Location: Cleveland
Member Is Offline
Mood: Gypsy
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by Edward Powell
I would call this Western... but borrowing some microtones from the maqam. |
Agree, but not completely Western since you hear microtones but the overall
tendency is Western reason why Ziad stopped doing such music. This dated from the beginning of the 80s. He said many times that these assays are a
total failure in his view.
Listen to this Bayati and the rhythm used in that song by the same composer, sung by Fayrouz.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mi9I8gJdB30
I find here something really new on a bayaati makam but the rhythm is unusual, not 2/4 or 4/4 add on the lovely arrangement of the orchestra. This was
live taken from the stage in year 2000 (or 2004, I don't recall exactly).
|
|
|
katakofka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 811
Registered: 1-24-2008
Location: Cleveland
Member Is Offline
Mood: Gypsy
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by MatthewW
hi katakofka - I would also call this western music. What is interesting is that you will find that John Coltrane, Miles Davis, Jimmy Garrison (
bass),Pharoah Sanders and other jazz pioneers of the late 1950s -1960s also experimented with various forms of musical expression including modal and
microtones- all done with western reed or brass instruments like sax, trumpet, trombone,upright fretless bass but they just didn't have an oud player
in the line up! Ziad may have even been inspired by those guys.
|
yep..Ziad is a big fan of Carlos Jobin too
|
|
|
Marina
Oud Junkie
Posts: 615
Registered: 9-1-2005
Location: Bosnia
Member Is Offline
Mood: Enthusiastic
|
|
Hello Edward!
We have such a luck to have one of us on the hot spot!
Can you give some information about studies in Oud house, who are the teachers, does Naseer Shamma teaches himself, how much are the lessons, how is
the lewel of the teachers... & all the things? I was supossed to go to Cairo in february, but it will wait a while...
Thank you so much for sharing your adventure with others!
|
|
|
Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
Registered: 1-20-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: g'oud
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by katakofka
| Quote: | Originally posted by Edward Powell
I would call this Western... but borrowing some microtones from the maqam. |
Agree, but not completely Western since you hear microtones but the overall
tendency is Western reason why Ziad stopped doing such music. This dated from the beginning of the 80s. He said many times that these assays are a
total failure in his view.
Listen to this Bayati and the rhythm used in that song by the same composer, sung by Fayrouz.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mi9I8gJdB30
I find here something really new on a bayaati makam but the rhythm is unusual, not 2/4 or 4/4 add on the lovely arrangement of the orchestra. This was
live taken from the stage in year 2000 (or 2004, I don't recall exactly). |
Hi Kata
Great! Where did you dig all this stuff up??
You are proving at least in my mind that Western influence by far need not be a bad thing at all! It is only a question of HOW Western influence is
used!!!
I really need to revise my critisism and my vocabulary... I need to stop blaming the West when in fact the blame simply falls on poor and superficial
musicianship/composing.
I get equally irritated when I hear a good western group try to use Eastern influences but clear are only able to do this very superficially....
Hey, this job of fusing musics is a very very serious thing and it takes a LONG time to know another cultures music well enough to really do it.
|
|
|
Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
Registered: 1-20-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: g'oud
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by Marina
Hello Edward!
We have such a luck to have one of us on the hot spot!
Can you give some information about studies in Oud house, who are the teachers, does Naseer Shamma teaches himself, how much are the lessons, how is
the lewel of the teachers... & all the things? I was supossed to go to Cairo in february, but it will wait a while...
Thank you so much for sharing your adventure with others!
|
Sure... in my opinion the OUDHOUSE can either be a God-send or a disappointment depending totally on your perseption and what you are looking for.
The building itself is an old Ottoman harem... BEAUTIFUL!
The lessons happen 3 days a week btw 5 - 10pm. The price is 250 EP/month total. Each student gets one private teacher. They told me that Naseer
conducts a group lesson once a week, but I went there the day he was supposed to do that and it never happened... (?)
As I said, it depends on your level and what you want. In my opinion some of the teachers there are very low level, but some relatively high. None are
great in my opinion. If it would be my choice, personlly I would not even accept Naseer teaching because in fact he seems to be leading Arab music in
a direction that I don't agree with. ---But reading again what I just wrote above, perhaps it is not the Western influence that I disagree with - -
- but more, it is HOW this Western influence is used. How they are using it in this Naseer/Jamil school always sounds to me a bit like the romantic
soundtracks from American movies from the 1930's...... it is totally just a question of my personal taste that it doesn't appeal to me - HOWEVER,
I am the first to congradulate Nas/Jam for being able to articulate all those chordal things really well intune! Bravo!
...ok, back to the oud school.
I think that if what you need is very basic instruction to get your fundamental technique rolling, then the oudhouse is a good place to start. Naseer
doesn't teach privately unless you stay there for years... is my guess. He is an ultra-busy and pre-occupied individual.
Personally, I would be very careful with the oudhouse if you are more than a hobbiest. If you really are serious about the oud I would be careful
because in my opinion by far the time where you need an EXCELLENT teacher is right in the very begining. In my opinion this is the main reason why
some musicians become very good, and some not - - - because you need very good teaching right in the beginning, and this is SO RARE because teaching a
beginner is very boring and very hard work - - - but you need a good teacher in the beginning because they need to get your hand techniques "set"
properly and get you onto "good habits" because you will ingrain these habits, and they will be hard to break later if not set will in the
beginning.
The other thing about the oudhouse is that they do not teach much maqam theory there - so if this is important for you it could also be an issue.
Also the style taught is Iraqi for the most part...
However, after all of my critisism, still the place has a fantastic vibe and it is just wonderful to go there and hangout and observe the teaching,
meet the teachers and students, chat, jam, and soak it all in... it's a GREAT PLACE!
|
|
|
katakofka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 811
Registered: 1-24-2008
Location: Cleveland
Member Is Offline
Mood: Gypsy
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by Edward Powell
Great! Where did you dig all this stuff up??
You are proving at least in my mind that Western influence by far need not be a bad thing at all! It is only a question of HOW Western influence is
used!!!
|
I took it from my CD and put it on youtube and Yessss it needs lot of music
education to make these fusion well done.
Listen to that bayaati also
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AOnPHNqkbM&feature=channel
And the one I loved the most from the same concert a music Called Dyaar Bakr. It's a bayaati 6/8, from min 5 in the link below
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cinJNLF4o6o&feature=channel
Trompet, trombone..etc all playing quater tones
|
|
|
katakofka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 811
Registered: 1-24-2008
Location: Cleveland
Member Is Offline
Mood: Gypsy
|
|
Back to the main issue which is how to use quarter tones without being traditional "classical". Ziad is a good example if you agree. From the clips I
mentioned above, from the jazzy clip of 1980s to the recent ones of 2000,2004,2007, have you realized how his music has transformed? As you said, his
80s music makes you feel that this is western music that took some quarter tones, but in the recent ones it's not the case (as I see it). You feel
that this music is indeed middle eastern but unusual non classical or traditional. Do you agree?
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
..
5
6
7
8
9 |
|
![[*]](images/xmbprobrown/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
