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MatthewW
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1031
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Location: right here
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Souheil, those two youtube videos of Ziad and the band playing in Bayati is very impressive! John Coltrane,McCoy Tyner, Miles Davis and others from
that period of 1950s-60s jazz experimentation also tried to expand western musical horizons , including use of quarter tones, but didn't (as far as I
am aware) manage to arrange pieces for an entire ensemble to play these quarter notes in unison, on western instruments. As you say, it must take a
lot of music education to pull this off successfully, and Ziad does just that. Is there a name in use for the music Ziad is playing, like 'modern
eastern/arabic ensemble music' or ? I agree that calling it 'classical' or 'traditional' dosen't seem to give an accurate description. Has Ziad
composed anything else in recent years for 'western/eastern ensemble in any other maqam other than bayati? regards MW
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katakofka
Oud Junkie
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Hi Math
the only one that came to my mind is the following, siga (huzaam) close to traditional
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_uicnuuPyQ
He worked on Kord and Hijaaz using non-traditional rhythm (2/4 or 4/4) as shown below:
Kord makam, from the late 70s. The Nay is lovely in that peace
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sda3EuJGOaA
1984: Kord: in here he worked on the 10/8 traditional rythm, but transformed on his way
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ws8EhHN7nRQ&feature=channel
1994: Kord and bayyat. Also non-traditional rhythm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5xM3vmrk9o&feature=channel
7ijaaz
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGsD1eZ-PVQ&feature=related
These that came to my mind probably others would have more
This music Ziad called it previously Oriental Jazz. Then he dropped it as the Jazz was a total failure in his eyes. Now he's calling it just "Lebanese
music". I prefer to call in Modern Middle eastern music in opposite to traditional or classical
Best
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Edward Powell
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very impressive what they have done... the microtones are there and add a new colour. And most importantly they do not HURT 
I would simply call this MODAL JAZZ. The chords are not really like a progression - rather, like modal chords.
they have done a great job of adding ONE microtone... however I feel this is just the beginning - since adding just one microtone is not THAT big a
deal really. Just for the sake of discussion, I would add that what I miss is modulation in other makams, and also the FULL exposure of bayati. Just
to play bayati like an aolian mode with a 1/4 flat second degree is not really bayati, because what bayati shifts to the upper tetrachord the 6th
degree becomes a 1/4 flat rather than a full flat...
so, as much as it makes me totally joyful to see musicians bothering to take it THIS far... I still feel it is just the beginning of what is
possible, and just the very tip of the iceberg (or the sand-dune))
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
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more great music - THANKS!
it is a pity we need to lable music... because often it is the unclassifiable which has the most value
still it sounds predominantly Western to my ears... and VERY VERY jazz orientated.
I would call it Lebanese jazz 
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katakofka
Oud Junkie
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Hey Ed..I suggest changing the name of the thread, make it...my trip to Lebanon I talked a lot about Ziad but still I hope I was able to give you an idea about a different kind of music that people are trying
in the Middle east. Sincerely I feel he is probably the only person doing serious music in the arab world.
Back to the main point. I hope I was able to show that composing on oriental makams without being repetitive is feasible and without being repetitive
or traditional. It just need the right musical education. I am not a professional musician but I am trying to play something unusual as you see in my
youtube page. I wanna still trying and playing oriental makams as much as I can to "fight" against shamma's oud style  and maybe I would influence a professional musician one lucky day. Believe me I
would be very glad
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
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Hi Kata
Yes absolutely! ...and I am glad you didn't misunderstand me. I sincerely thank you for making me aware of these clips and this music. You caused a
revolution in my own thinking and in my future vocabulary - - from now on I am going to stop pointing the accusing finger at the West - and instead,
if I don't like any particular music - simply accept that this music is not to my taste and that someone else might get something out of it...
Yes it is clearly time to completely accept that the East and West and North and South and everywhere else are all mixed and fused for better or
worse. The time to sensor and shield ourselves and music from any influence has long past and become impossible. All that remains to do is simply make
the very best music we can, and stop thinking about what influences what.
Now I am repeating myself, but I wil say it again --- I was a professional Westen musician before I ever heard a maqam note... I was seeking
creative and advanced forms of Western music all thru my teens and early 20's. Therefore my tastes became pretty refined --- I think that this is why
I am not impressed with (as you call it) the Shamma school. Those guys are using chords but I am SURE that their exposure to Western music (and how
wild and wonderful chordal music can really get!) is not very extensive. It doesn't impress my ears.
Now, to be fair - by the same token... I myself and doing "professional" music with maqam influence - and I am sure that those who are either very
advanced maqam listeners or players will not be overly impressed with what I do with maqam, simply because being a latecomer to maqam my depth of
experience with the idiom will never reach their depth -
But this does not mean that I should not use maqams the best I can, and that Shamma should not use chords the best he can.
Shamma's music and very fundamental use of chords can and does appeal to those who are just beginning their exposure to chordal music... afterall,
when we first begin to listen to any musical idiom we need to acclimatise ourselves to the most fundamental form of it - - - you can NOT understand
bebop without a long pre-education and acclimatisation to the idiom and complex chord changes (largely because the players assume that the audience is
familiar with the chord structure, and therefore can LEAVE OUT MAJOR SECTIONS of the music, and imply the rest - - - so in this way the audience gets
pleasure - - - but without this "knowing the idiom" bebop" just sounds like a senseless wash of notes------as it did to me for years until I studied
it). Can we imagine that Shamma would have suddenly come out with chordal music as sophisticated as bebop???? His "chordally young" Oriental audience
would have thrown SHOES at him.)
Same with maqam... until you know it and have 'lived in it' you will only likely be able to enjoy it in it's most fundamental form.
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
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Went to visit MAURICE at his workshop today for the first time... what a great guy, and really FANTASTIC ouds! Great sound, and each one very
different than the other. ---amazing decorations also.
We had a good long chat - and he showed me around the place . . . got some good fotos but my camera battery is dead right now...
He mentioned to me several oud players that he thinks are great. I had heard of none of them, so need to start a new round of homework. . . . any
help appreciated!
Ahmed Fathi (Maurice promised to take me there to meet him)
Arif Yonman
Abedi El Gohar
Said Yagazel
Amar El Shiriay
...spelling ? ? ? ? ?
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katakofka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 811
Registered: 1-24-2008
Location: Cleveland
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Ahmed fathi or Abedi el Gohar both have similar style to Farid el atrash. Ammar el shirii is a know keyboard player and composer I didn't know that he
plays oud too. The other 2 guys never heard of. Looking forward for new videos with Ahmad Fathi
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
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How can someone switch from oud to keyboards?)
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
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I finally got around to visiting MAURICE (mauriceouds.com) who is considered the best oud maker in Egypt.
Very nice guy - rather humble workshop... no powertools and just a couple of guys working away... Maurice in his office surrounded by beautiful and
AMAZING ouds. I had a very good feeling from the whole operation. I tried out some ouds and they all sounded very resonant and rich... but each one
was very unique and different from the next one... also in how they looked.
Maurice seems an expert in decorating the backs. One on them was decorated with tortoise shells (foto below)... just amazing!
His shop is rather out of the way and tough to find . otherwise I would hang out there daily...
He said his least expensive oud is $1000... and I am sure the top custom super decoration models go thru the roof. I was interested to see fotos of
one oud he made for the King of Oman... because when I was at Faruk Turunz's place (also 2 years ago) Faruk was making 2 ultra-super quality ouds also
for that King... so, quite a collecter that guy!
Maurice also told me about several supposedly great arabic oud players, and none of them I had heard of... so this give me some more research material
:-)
enjoy the fotos. . . .
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Melbourne
Oud Junkie
Posts: 354
Registered: 10-9-2006
Location: Mlebourne, Australia
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Mood: راحة الأرواح
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
Registered: 1-20-2008
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFWptHCnWaE
...this one was not filmed by me, but I felt it could fit in with the Cairo Thread nicely - - -
Thanks Joe... you are playing GREAT as usual!
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katakofka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 811
Registered: 1-24-2008
Location: Cleveland
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Mood: Gypsy
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Thanks Ed. That was nice
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
Registered: 1-20-2008
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Mood: g'oud
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I had some good luck in the last little while.
To be honest, in the last week to 10 days my mood began to decline a little bit - feeling like I had seen all there was to see - or the scene is too
dead - or I was just not making the connections I would like... but in any case I was feeling that I was not finding what I wanted. Naseer's school
is not what I am after since it seems to be technically rather than theory based. The concert often seem uninspired... etc etc.
So I was seriously thinking about shifting down to Aswan...
But on Friday I went to EL SAWY to see an Arab music concert and found it very good. The main lead singer was a young woman with a beautiful voice.
After the concert I happened to talk to this woman who was very friendly - - it turns out she is a voice and oud teacher at the Zamelek music academy.
She invited me to come during the week to visit and talk about what I am looking for with the music etc.
So today I went there, and was really surprised and amazed by this place. I really didn't know that such an enormous and serious school for EGYPTIAN
MUSIC is existing and obviously thriving! They have a 5 year program in which they teach all the maqams and forms of Egyptian music on all Egyptian
instruments.
Her name is SAMAH ISMAIL. We had a very inspired meeting in her office - I must have been there for almost 3 hours... she was also of course
interested in things that I could explain to her - like things about the Turkish makam system and intonation, as well as the Indian raga system - of
which she knows nothing.
From our long conversation I started to realise that what I know the VERY VERY least about - in Arab music - is the forms... this is something I
would like to explore here in another thread.
She has agreed to help me compile resourse material on all maqams - - - this is a great help because in Arab music maqams are not listed with song
titles, so it is difficult to find pieces in particular maqamat!
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katakofka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 811
Registered: 1-24-2008
Location: Cleveland
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Mood: Gypsy
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Ed
have you ever heard about Alfred Gamil? he's in Egypt. Listen to his work
http://www.qithara.com/song/TahmilaRahaAl-Arwaah.wma
http://www.qithara.com
He also put the Notations on his website. very interesting stuff !
Gamil obtained a Ph.D. in the philosophy of arts, the thesis title: “Achieving a number of Arabic Maqamat (gemmas and scales) of the Turkish
Sazenda”
I found his address on his website
Alfred Gamil
280 Faisal Street, 9th floor App. 38
Giza - EGYPT
Phone & Fax: 00202-7820640
handy: 0122475005
http://www.qithara.com
email : alfredgamil@yahoo.com
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
Registered: 1-20-2008
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Hi Souheil!
Thanks SO much for all this great info and input!!!
I am sorry for being a bit slow with responding. . . . to be honest, in the last week or so I have experiences a small over-load and a minor
burn-out... it happens sometimes during these intensive and extensive learning periods.
At the moment, I haven't touched my oud or listened to Arab music for a few days... and this is normal and ok - - - I let myself go into other
things, and refresh my brain by thinking about totally different things. For example I have been designing a new double neck fretless guitar---- this
time with the idea to figure out how I can do it in as time-effect a way as possible in order to bring the price tag down to Earth for the many very
good (but not rich) musicians who have been inquiring lately. . .
So I have been letting myself switch gears for a while. Probably I will get back to the study this evening. . . . . I know there is a new door
(dawr) waiting to be opened behind which is a treasure house of goodies :-)
THANKS FOR EVERYTHING!
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
Registered: 1-20-2008
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Mood: g'oud
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Hi Everybody!
I burned out my laptop the other day, that is why I am not posting much - - - I have it now in the HP service center here in cairo.... they are
fixing it on warrantee :-)
Went to a concert in the OPERA SMALL HALL... it was called "RELIGIOUS SONGS". I would never have even thought to go to that, and the guy at the door
taking tickets even tried to talk me out of it saying I will not be interested. I think he meant that I would not relate to the lyrics since I am
obviously not Muslim - - - perhaps he didn't figure that my knowledge of Arabic language is about .1%....
It turned out to be the best concert I have been to yet! Full orchestra and chorus... and everybody performing with FULL HEART --- very unlike those
STATE ENSEMBLES.
I have been invited there by a wonderful singer I had met last friday Samah Ismail... what a voice! She invited me again to come for another "lesson"
at the Zamelek Academy this Sunday, which makes me really happy because it seems we are becoming good friends. It even makes me think about the
possibility of trying some musical collaboration with her in future.
I have been hearing really many singers now and starting to notice that I like some much more than others. Many of them - maybe even most, tend to
really strain their voices in the high register... Samah in the high register has a very soft light touch.... very nice!
Yesterday I was at the National theatre and it was packed for a change... it was an O.K. night! GREAT ALSO! ...I met some music lovers there and
ended up having a very long converstion afterward discussing all sorts of thing - details of the forms and origins and development of Egyptian
music... Fascinating!
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Marina
Oud Junkie
Posts: 615
Registered: 9-1-2005
Location: Bosnia
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Mood: Enthusiastic
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Pictures, please!
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
Registered: 1-20-2008
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Mood: g'oud
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I am getting LAZY!
I also have some cool videos.... but as I said, my laptop is now in service... so those will unfortunately have to wait. . . . .
wow, life without a notebook
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Owain-Hawk
Oud Junkie
Posts: 205
Registered: 6-17-2008
Location: Morecambe, UK
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Mood: Happy!
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Edward, I hope you're alright!! I just heard that there was an explosion in Cairo today, and a few foreigners were killed and others injurered. Please
post ASAP and let us know you're OK!!
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
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Hi Everybody...
Thanks for your concern. I'm fine... yes, there was a big tragedy here last night -
Very very sad...
...one good thing about only being interested in music as opposed to touristic things is that I very rarely frequent those areas. . . and now I
will simply not go at all near any tourist spot.
Truly shocking --- but not really a big surprise to be honest. I have sort been expecting something like this, considering the big picture.
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
Registered: 1-20-2008
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Mood: g'oud
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,,,this pc here is weird,
- not sure if my last post registered?
I'm here and fine...
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Owain-Hawk
Oud Junkie
Posts: 205
Registered: 6-17-2008
Location: Morecambe, UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: Happy!
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Yep your last post registered. I'm glad you're OK it just worried me because a few people had been killed and they were tourists. It's a shame stuff
like this happens but I'm not going to talk about it and turn it into a political disscussion...
You live to Oud another day! 
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
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Yes... I am very worried about the general situation.
I leave on March 21, and truly hope that the general situation remains stable until I leave ---- that sounds incredibly selfish I know. What I meant
to say was that I really hope this area will see a lasting peace.... but....
yes, let's not get too political . . . . .
back to ouds....
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
Registered: 1-20-2008
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Mood: g'oud
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I didn't come here with my double-neck "oud/sarod" which is the instrument I use when I perform... I do not perform anymore specifically on proper
ouds -
However, the wonderful nay player and friend Mohamed Antar has asked me to play a 30 minute duet fasil with him at his concert next week in Alex.
Although it was not my intention to perform at all on this trip - but rather to focus on studying - still I am very happy about this, and feel that
for me right now it is the best way to STUDY.
He has given me 3 long compositions of his own in Nahawand, and I will also be playing a 5 -7 minute taksim. He insisted that I play in Ottoman style
--- which is a relief for me because although I am quickly "catching" something of the Arab style, I still would not like to be expected to come
across as playing in an Arab style.
My ultimate goal is also not to sound like a Turk - however it just seems to be happening this way.
I am hoping that after this trip there will forever remain strong traces on the Arab style in my playing.
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