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Edward Powell
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degenerated MAQAM system?
At the risk of sounding cynical...
while it seems obvious that oud technique has greatly improved in recent years, it is equally obvious that the maqam system has degenerated and
continues to do so.
however, I am the first to say "better a degenerated maqam system than NO maqam system".
what I am trying to point out is that there are literally hundreds and hundreds of maqams... but what do we hear these "TOP" oud performers playing
again and again and again and again and again........
RAST
NAHAWAND
BAYATI
HIJAZ
...maybe Hijazkar or Huzam if you are lucky...
perhaps a MAXIMUM of 10 maqams at the moment in common use with an overwhelming predominance of the 3 or 4 above mentioned.
....sorry, but this gets boring after a while.
Is it becoming the MACDONALDS of arabic music? I mean, the condition of arab music is clear to me after being 6 weeks in cairo - - - but is this
monoculture of maqam choice helping matters any?
I read that in the heyday of the Ottoman times there were dozens and dozens of makams in constant common use, and composers were constantly creating
new makams and combined makams. . . . . .
why do we not at least hear an occational BASTANIKAR, KARJIGHAR, SIKAH, NAIRUZ, MUSTAAR, or SUZIDIL MAQAM taksim???
Is it because the performers are afraid to depart from what they hope will be somewhat recognisable... or do they simply lack the vocabulary?
[perhaps they are spending most of their practice time developing speed rather than melodic depth. . . . . this anyway seems to be what the audiences
are best responding to]
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Ararat66
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I have a great soft spot for Husseini
Leon
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Arto
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And I for Ussak...
Arto
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Edward Powell
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yes Huseini!!! I never hear Arabs play it as a "feature" maqam. However it seems to be done in Iraq. Jamil does a great rendition!
Ussak is also one of my huge favs.... and to be honest it irritates my a bit how Arabs tend not to make much differentiation btw Ussak and Bayati.
They seem to have just mixed the two together and called it Bayati, but from my understanding originally Bayati was restricted only to the middle
region, and would not-for example- play much around the root-tonic, except in final cadance. Mohammed Antar actually calls Ussak "Dugah Maqam".
---I wonder why he doesn't just call it Ussak? ...especially since Dugah Makami in Ottoman music is something totally different than Ussak
(according to what I was taught)
thanks for you interest in this thread guys.... I would like to hear from others about what are some favourite maqams out there - especially those
that rarely get played.
Thanks!
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katakofka
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Makams on youtube
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=FantasticoTube&view=videos
Makes you deciding which one you like. My best Makam is Tarzanwiin figure out
what is that 
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Edward Powell
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http://www.youtube.com/user/basilazah
check this out!
Fantastic! ...just created last week.
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charlie oud
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I like this one but I dont remember the name, can someone tell me?, Here are the notes: C D Eb F Gb A Bb C
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corridoio
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Hi Charlie
looking on my sheets this is Nahawand Murassah:
Nahawand on C then Hijaz on F
Ale
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JT
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Edward,
We do hear these modes, but usually within a taqasim. The 'popular' maqams you mentioned are the parent Maqams, head of the families in which the
others branch out. Its a middle Eastern thing I guess, you wait on your father to start eating first before you dig in...
Because these maqams are branches and not the head of the table, the others are stronger and much more accepted to branch from them, ofcourse there
are cases. But believe me this 'degenerating' system (I dont believe it is) beats major and minor and should be given credit for what it is. As for
popularity of the maqams and taqasims its personal taste of the player, gathering and what music they want to play before or after...
All the best man,
JT
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charlie oud
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Thanks Ale, Murassah. I will remember that. Charlie
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eliot
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It's not as if Karcigar was ever a widely used maqam in Egypt. It's quite clearly a mode that is most frequently used in West Asian (particularly in
Greco-Turkish stuff found along the Aegean) regional folk musics, was later incorporated into the Ottoman art music makam system, spread through the
Arab world due to Ottoman control of Arab territories, and then experimented with in 20s-40s Egyptian compositions, only to fall by the wayside.
Some of the other maqamat you list also have no longstanding basis in Arab traditional music practice but are "foreign imports." Arab music NEVER had
compound maqamat akin to the 19th century Turkish murekkeb makamlar (and it's through the compound makamlar that the numbers of possible makam
mushroomed in the Turkish music purview). So their current non-use is perhaps less of a degeneration rather than a shedding of Ottoman art music
influences.
If you want to decry the lack of an experimental tendency in today's performers and composers, that's another matter, one that hasn't been discussed
much. I'm with you on the strangeness of the technical tendency in playing - I have a hard time "feeling" long streams of 3-octave scales, arpeggios,
and endless streams of 32nd notes, regardless of whether in a familiar or an obscure maqam!
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katakofka
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| Quote: | Originally posted by eliot
Some of the other maqamat you list also have no longstanding basis in Arab traditional music practice but are "foreign imports." Arab music NEVER had
compound maqamat akin to the 19th century Turkish murekkeb makamlar (and it's through the compound makamlar that the numbers of possible makam
mushroomed in the Turkish music purview). So their current non-use is perhaps less of a degeneration rather than a shedding of Ottoman art music
influences.
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mmm....this is controversial Eliot saying that Arab traditional music never had compound makamat. On what structure "al muwashahaat" were composed if
no compound makamaat exisited at the time of the Abbasid empire before the turkish empire?
This is part of al mowashah "mala el kasat".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4IVhOAbbFo&feature=related
Most of the arabic singers at the time of the ottoman empire used to sing for the Sultan or the governor of the region in palaces. They introduced the
word amaan in their mowashahaat to please the turkish Governor. One might be mislead by hearing the "amaan word" and would say this is a turkish
form; however, it 's not the case.
Arabic music before the ottoman empire had developed makams as well as developed rythms.
check that..there is a muwashah, an old one, with 5/4 rythm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwwcc7hMGEU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nj9RUg1xjkM&feature=related
Of note is that a big part of the nomenclature of the makams are from Persian origin too. Arabs took from the Persians and the turk took from the
arabs, developed the makam system in more details and made new makams of course.
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Masel
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Edward Powell I wanted to add that most countries that use arab maqam were never as interested in theory as the turks. The turks were the head of a
huge wealthy empire and had lots of time to pursue and develop dozens of obscure maklamar based on regional influences or pure theory. It might also
be geographic proximity to europe that influenced their temperment. Other peoples of the middle east on the other hand were less concerened with
theory, maybe also because of temperment or economic reasons, and were more concerened with developing long themes without jumping constantly between
maqamat, which you can appreciate also.
For example persian dastgah, iraqi maqam, moroccan/algierian nuba, syrian muwashahat. Each of these systems is very complex in its own way. I agree
its less exotic (and I admit sometimes less exciting) to hear the same maqamat over and over but you are looking at it I believe from european eyes,
looking for more complicated theory, where in effect the true art is the practice. Try playing maqam rast and ONLY rast for one hour and you will see
that it takes great mastery to keep the spirit of one maqam for a long time can be harder than jumping to a different one every phrase.
It reminds me of the time that I asked Yair Dalal about Salah al-Qweiti's song "ya hafer elbir". I asked him if the iraqis that wrote and play this
song would say it is in maqam muhayyer (because of the descending seyir) or simply call bayat. He gave the example of Avraham Salman, the great qanun
player. "He can play anything, if you ask him if this song is muhayyer he will say 'yes maybe it is muhayyer', if you ask him is it bayat he will say
'ok so call it bayat what is the difference'".
But what you say about modern players I agree with. I would like to see people learning more seriously about all the different systems and learning to
use their similarities and differences for creating new interesting music. Since the modern world changes everything I think the way to go is to learn
about the different systems so that they dont collapse into one big mess, but then learn how to combine them in new ways, this is how music has always
developed.
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Masel
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By the way katakofta that muwashah is not 5/4 the rhythm is samai (that comes from turkey of course). But there are many irregular muwashahat rhythms.
Can you recommend some good muwashahat albums, groups, singers?
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Ararat66
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I also have a soft spot for Paklava and coffee, which may also be modal
Leon
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Edward Powell
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Thanks so much guys for engaging in this discussion -
So many points to discuss... I will start by responding to Joe's post.
Yes, I "got" the jist of what you are mentioning when I analysed the modulations you and Mamdouh make on your "meeting" clips. Obviously it is in the
modulations where the maqam system is alive in Arabic music.
Perhaps the problem is my unfamiliarity with the details of Arabic "classical" music. I have been much much closer to Ottoman music and can therefore
speak about it with much more conviction and accuracy.
Hense, I really don't know how it is in Arab music: it is really as you say, that there are just a small handful of "parent maqams" and a greater
number of "off-spring maqams" which only get attention as a modulation from a Parent Maqam? If this is how it has always been done with the Arab maqam
(even in it's heyday --- when was THAT?) then what can I say?
However, my experience with maqam has been very Turkish so I get my reference point from there. For example in Turkey - although of course some makams
are much more popular than others - still every makam (I am not including each and every obscure multicompound makam that was ever contrived in
existance, but rather, well over 100 REAL makams) shares an equal status in terms of its capabilities and potentialities. Every makam has it's own
AYIN composed for it. Some makams have several AYINS composed for it however, according to Necati, there is only one AYIN for each makam that became
famous, remembered, and hense became the standard AYIN for that makam. -
- Each of these makams has it's own SEYIR, which is the complex GRAMMER and ROADMAP which comes with it. [it is the differences in SEYIR which make
such a huge difference btw makams like shehnaz, hicazkar, chedaraban, suzidil, turkish suzinak, evcara, -all of which have the same scale but
different tonics.
- another example is makams USSAK, BAYATI, ACEM, - all 3 have exactly the same scale AND EXACTLY THE SAME TONIC ALSO... yet the difference in SEYIR
gives them all a unique mood of their own.
The specific grammatical differences give each of these makams totally different characters. And thru the SEYIR (which governs: melodic direction,
important and not important notes, shiftable notes, temporary stopping points on nearby makams, and common full modulations) each makam has the
potential to be a PARENT makam. ---this is how it is in Ottoman music anyway... but as I said, I really don't know Arab music well enough yet to
know if it was ever this way down here??
Of course, in terms of strictly MODAL music, if all we get are MAJOR and MINOR, then that is of course ultra-limited. but if we are thinking about
JAZZ or Western Classical music, the major/minor becomes much more than that thru the use of the underlying Harmony.
- - -
Hey is that Eliot from Istanbul???
Thanks for offering these clarifications... very helpful in my quest to put these puzzle pieces together.
You mention Arabs not having indulged in the compound maqam... yes, in general, this seems evident - however how does one classify maqam
SIKAH-HUZAM, or BAYATI-HUSEINI?
However, you get my main point which is that there perhaps seems to be a general lack of experimental tendency amount arab oudis, or should I say -
rather EXPERIMENTAL IN TERMS OF MAQAM USAGE.
- - -
yes... as KATA points out, to really understand what is going on here it is necessary to understand what was going on musically in these regions
before the Ottomans and beyond. Where are which makams coming from? Where is the concept of the SEYIR (composed makam) coming from? Where and when did
modulation become the norm (it doesn't happen in the RAGA system)? When did this music shift from 'musical tendencies within an oral tradition' to
'fixed grammatical standardised melodic rules'?
- - -
one day while in istanbul a couple of years ago I was talking to a brilliant young oudi and questioning him regarding common modulations of various
makams. I used to do this with every musician I met in order to expand my knowledge of which makams I AM ALLOWED to modulate into from a given makam.
Finally he really turned the whole thing upside down for me and brought it all back down to earth when he said - "You are free, yani (he always said
"yani" at the end of each sentence)! You can go anywhere you want! If you have the feeling to go there, then GO there, or there, GO there --- nobody
is judging you or watching you to make sure you do it CORRECTLY - - - if it sounds good, and feels good, then you are free to do it!"
Other players tempered this slightly by saying that although we are free, still it greatly helps the music to sound smooth, if there is at least a
minimum of logic in the proposed modulation.
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Edward Powell
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| Quote: | Originally posted by corridoio
Hi Charlie
looking on my sheets this is Nahawand Murassah:
Nahawand on C then Hijaz on F
Ale |
anyone know of some clips of this one??
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katakofka
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Masel
By the way katakofta that muwashah is not 5/4 the rhythm is samai (that comes from turkey of course). But there are many irregular muwashahat rhythms.
Can you recommend some good muwashahat albums, groups, singers? |
There are 3 muwashahaat in those link I posted. At min 3:29 is the beginning of muwashah "ma htiyaali ya rifaaki" which is 5/4.
the rhythm 10/8 samai is not a turkish one. You can find it in many mouwashahs coming from Andalusia meaning coming from the Omawiyyin empire (before
the abbasid). By the way, the word samai is coming from "samaa" which means "Listening" in arabic, like Oud, Oudi, samaa, samaai. Why would the turks
use an arabic name for a form they created?
Sabri el mudallal is one of the best. You probably can find CD on the net.
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katakofka
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Here is muwashah "ma htyaali" the 5/4 but a studio version sung by Suaad Mhammad
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeDZ8qdmmdk
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Masel
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I stand corrected. Thank you!
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katakofka
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ5oounu_Ps
very popular one from the same album of suuad mhammad
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Edward Powell
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I stumbled upon this clip...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AauI-PZsXnw
It seems to be in SIKAH-HUZAM... now THIS is the kind of Arabic music that sends shivers up my spine! ...it's nothing at all like you will find
anywhere else in the world - certainly not Turkey!
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Masel
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Eddie baby (do you like monty python?), that clip is not a muwashah. That is the great Riadh elSunbati, a modern egyptian composer. This is a
"textbook example" how you say in english of arabic music, his style and voice are one of the best but it is not revolutionary or unique in a way
different from other arabic music .The maqam by the way is not huzzam it is maqam iraq - segah on B-b- and bayat on D. I like this maqam alot, and i I
did once an analysis of a samai iraq composed by Salim alNur, I wanted other people to do something similar but I guess no one was interested.
Here it is: http://arabicouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=7427#pid46649
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katakofka
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You would love this Ed for Riad Essombati. Typical riad !
http://www.sawari.com/torath/fateen/Riad%20Essonbati%20Bayne%20wa%2...
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eliot
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| Quote: | Originally posted by katakofka
mmm....this is controversial Eliot saying that Arab traditional music never had compound makamat. On what structure "al muwashahaat" were composed if
no compound makamaat exisited at the time of the Abbasid empire before the turkish empire?
Arabic music before the ottoman empire had developed makams as well as developed rythms.
Of note is that a big part of the nomenclature of the makams are from Persian origin too. Arabs took from the Persians and the turk took from the
arabs, developed the makam system in more details and made new makams of course. |
Dear Katakofka,
I think we're disagreeing not on the basis of musical practice and analysis but on the usage of terminology. "Compound makam," as I was using the
term, refers to a very specific and quite recent entity in Turkish practice and to specific makam types, not to the makam system as a whole.
You mention "al muwashahaat" - let's take this genre as an example. Were there ever muwashahaat in Sedd-Araban? In Nuhuft? In Ferahfeza? Not to my
knowledge. These kinds of named makam entities are themselves only a comparatively recent creation in Turkey. They specify a fixed motion between
different qarar pitches. In Arab compositions, can you go directly from Bayyati on D to Rast on C to Hijaz on E half-flat? Is this a
named maqam structure?
I would never argue that Arab music in Egypt doesn't have modulations, nor that it doesn't have complex systems of modulations (both in
taqasim and in composed forms), nor argue that Arab music hasn't had many maqamat that are now no longer performed!
I was responding to Edward's list, which includes many "maqam" names that simply were never part of Arab music performance practice. We know the years
when the makam-s Suzidil and Nuhuft were invented by specific Ottoman composers living in Istanbul. They didn't really catch on in Turkey,
let alone in the Arab world. I don't see their non-use necessarily as a "loss" in the same way Edward suggested on the first post.
Thus what I said was not at all a value judgment, although I apologize if it came across as one.
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