cjmichael
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Location: New Orleans, Louisiana, USA
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Very precise tuning on wound strings: Is it possible?
When tuning the copper wound strings on my oud, it is just impossible for me to tune exactly on the note mark. It seems that my oud really doesn't
let the strings sit anywhere they want to on the bone. It's almost as if I can only tune in certain increments, and the copper winding on the strings
determine those increments.
Let's say that I'm tuning the low F string on my oud. The needle on my tuner is at 10 flat of a perfect F. I'll tighten the string until the needle
is precisely on F, and then the tuning will jump 10 sharp on its own. It just won't let me tune exactly to F no matter how slow I go about it or how
much graphite I use at the bone.
This is something I'm very curious about and I'm wondering if it is even possible given the perpendicular peg box of the oud. I have a floating
bridge oud with what seems like a glued in bone (so I'm very reluctant to modify it at all). I only have this problem with wound strings (Pyramid
oud). My instinct is to sand the grooves on the bone to be smoother, less of a corner. I want to avoid this if possible. I wonder how many other
people have this problem, or if everybody has it.
Thanks!
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DaveH
Oud Junkie
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Registered: 12-23-2005
Location: Birmingham, UK
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Hi CJ. I do get this problem as well. I have an ebony nut and I think that makes it more susceptible as the windings make small ridges across the
grooves.
The usual first recourse is to try to lubricate the groove by rubbing a soft graphite pencil along it. You can do this by just pulling the string to
one side.
If this isn't sufficient, be careful about sanding the nut down. It may be that the rear edge is too sharp, but be careful about making the grooves
any deeper or wider - deeper can mean the string gets stuck worse whereas wider can allow it to vibrate and set up sympathetic buzzing. The grooves
should be very shallow - they should really only act as a guide to keep the string in the same place, not a channel for it to sit right inside.
With a bone nut, you should be able to get any wound string running smoothly and infinitely adjustable, no matter how thick. If you really can't sort
it out yourself, a luthier may be able to do it, failing that, a new nut might be the only way of completely solving the problem.
Take a look at this guide to caring for lutes, which I downloaded a couple of weeks back. See section 8 on nuts.
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Jameel
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Dave has some good advice there. I follow Lundberg's method with excellent results. Here's the secret. The groove does not go all the way over the
nut. It's just a shallow groove located at the apex of the curve that locates the strings. It's very shallow and doesn't need to be the exact diameter
of the string. If I find time I'll paraphrase Lundberg's method further at some point. The grooves are also polished with toothpaste and string. If
done well, strings with windings should not jump when tuning, but slide smoothly.
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Melbourne
Oud Junkie
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Location: Mlebourne, Australia
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Its interesting this problem and b4 I read DaveH and Jameel's responses the first thing that came to mind is the shape of the nut. I had a guitar
maker carve a bone nut for me once, and it's exactly what happens, the grooves are deep and flat, and as a result the wound part of a string clogs and
stops moving, and you end up with these tuning problems. The nut on my shehata oud is almost exactly one quarter of a circle in sectional profile,
and that allows the wound strings to take curved bend and travel smoothly to the pegbox...
I guess one advantage of the cheaper wooden nuts you get on cheap ouds, even on some good ones, is that the groves are shaped by the string, so you
never end up with a stubborn corner where the wound strings get stuck.
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cjmichael
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Posts: 117
Registered: 4-22-2007
Location: New Orleans, Louisiana, USA
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Thanks everybody, I'm glad to know this now. Perhaps in my case, though, it would be best not to bother it. Upon closer inspection it seems my nut
is wooden, and it's very, very thin on one side. I'm not sure what kind of wood it is. Here is a blurry cell phone pic just for reference. I think
it would be hasty to try anything myself. If there is no easy fix that doesn't involve removing any of the wood, I'll just put up with it and maybe
one day get it professionally repaired.
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Reda Aouad
Oud Junkie
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Location: Lebanon
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Thanks for the info. I have exactly the same problem. I tried to put some cream in the grooves of the nut and the tuning is now better.. though not
perfect.
But I'm experiencing the same problem with the nylon strings as well.. not being able to tune the pair to the exact same pitch.. anyone has an
explanation? My nut is made from wood..
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Reda Aouad
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Just to make things a bit clearer.. my pegs are good and I have no problem turning them in very small increments and as smoothly as I want. But it is
very annoying not to be able to tune strings to the exact same pitch.. the difference in the sound gets higher when moving to higher finger positions
on the neck.. it is just frustrating!
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jaron
Oud Maniac
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if you have a wound string that seems to want to settle just above or below the correct pitch, try twisting that string a little bit! loosen it fist
of course, and twist it a little as you tighten- it might make contact with the nut at a different point of it's spiral than it did before- i have
found that this often helps...
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rojaros
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Hello, if the strings are in tune when open and going out of tune when fingered, that rather sounds like a problem with the strings themselves (that
comes if they vary in thickness along their length) - here only changing strings ore sometimes turning the ends of one of the strings can help
Other than that if you can't tune them when open, they have been given very good advices in this thread.
best wishes
Robert
| Quote: | Originally posted by Reda Aouad
Just to make things a bit clearer.. my pegs are good and I have no problem turning them in very small increments and as smoothly as I want. But it is
very annoying not to be able to tune strings to the exact same pitch.. the difference in the sound gets higher when moving to higher finger positions
on the neck.. it is just frustrating! |
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rojaros
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Hello, judging by the picture I could think that the original nut has been removed (maybe for making the open string length shorter) and some kind of
improvised nut has been integrated into the fingerboard.
If you are not experienced in making new nuts don't try to improve that one - it could make the instrument unplayable.
So what remains is a combination of the two techniques mentioned in this thread: lubricating (preferably graphite) and twisting the wound strings
tighter (which also can improve their sound because they become a bit stiffer)
best luck
Robert
| Quote: | Originally posted by cjmichael
Thanks everybody, I'm glad to know this now. Perhaps in my case, though, it would be best not to bother it. Upon closer inspection it seems my nut
is wooden, and it's very, very thin on one side. I'm not sure what kind of wood it is. Here is a blurry cell phone pic just for reference. I think
it would be hasty to try anything myself. If there is no easy fix that doesn't involve removing any of the wood, I'll just put up with it and maybe
one day get it professionally repaired. |
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DaveH
Oud Junkie
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Hi Reda. As Rojaros says, it's almost certainly the strings. There must be some irregularity - either an inconsistency in the diameter or perhaps a
flaw which allows the string to stretch out unevenly. But before you replace them, just try turning around the one causing the problem. If two strings
in a course go progressively out of tune with respect to each other as you move up the fingerboard, chances are only one of them is causing a problem.
It's usually (though not always) the one which goes sharper. Turning the offending string around can often solve the problem.
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Reda Aouad
Oud Junkie
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Location: Lebanon
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The problem is still not solve.. Im starting to doubt that its a nut problem. On of my wound strings has several small tears or snaps exactly at the
nut.. and the others have wound separation where the nylon beneath is starting to appear (I dont know if I expressed correctly but I hope you
understand). Is there any easy and fast way to sand the nut's grooves? And using what tool if any? And Im still not being able to tune my nylon
strings to the exact same pitch even after twisting all of them.. and the strings brand is Crystal (German made) and are only less than a month
old..
Any help? I will try La Bella strings but I want first to fix my nut..
Thanks 
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cjmichael
Oud Junkie
Posts: 117
Registered: 4-22-2007
Location: New Orleans, Louisiana, USA
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jaron,
That's a really good tip about twisting the strings. I'm going to give it a try and see how well it works. I wish I thought of doing that.
rojaros,
Yeah, I'm not willing to shape it myself. I have no clue why the maker would glue it on, though.
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rojaros
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Hi cjmichael,
as I wrote it looks (judging from the one picture) as if somebody had tried to make the playing length (open string length) shorter, which is actually
not s bad idea to go about if your hand is small and you like the instrument and want to play it.
Probabely it's not so easy to undo that - you would have to remove that black part and glue in a part that extends the finger board to its original
length and then insert a proper nut. Maybe not worth the trouble.
best wishes
Robert
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