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DaveH
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The Cairo Congress was in 1932 not 1928. I'm not saying this to be pedantic, Masel, but because it makes me wonder why Owain's reference talks about
Qadim meaning pre 1928 - is there another reason for the cutoff?
In any case, 1932 appears to be to Arabic music what 1066 is to us Anglo Saxons, and, as Masel says, I think the conference is key to this debate.
Here is a very good article - good as in interesting and well written - I'm not an expert so can't vouch for how well it represents the musical
controversies. But it's a good lesson in the dangers of assuming that the world can always be divided neatly into western or pro-western modernisers
(aka innovating geniuses or soulless copycats, depending on your point of view) and non-western upholders of tradition (aka stickinthemuds or noble
savages, again, depending on your viewpoint).
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eliot
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Edward Powell
But not ALL of her songs where long epics. Does anyone know approximately what percentage of her repertoire are these long epics? ...and when did she
shift to the long epic style? ...and finally, once she shifted to the long epics, did she ever return to the short piece style?
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you have to read Virginia Danielson's book, it's a very well researched work on Oum. Much of what you ask is answered in there, and it would be silly
to simply recopy what Virginia wrote much better than most of us could paraphrase.
but responding to this question (which isn't covered in the book), you'll want to look at a progression of recording technologies that were used for
her works at very specific historical points and the "maximum record time" available.
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Masel
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DaveH you're right I'm sorry. I still stand by my point but it makes 1928 seem like a random date. I hope I didn't offend anyone, I didn't mean to say
what you said about dividing the world into modern west and traditional east at all. Now I will read the article thank you.
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DaveH
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Masel, please don't be defensive! If there's any offence caused, it's by me and my fault alone. I wouldn't dare presume to correct you when you post
such beautiful music. (Just listen to any of my music clips if you want to see just how small a leg I have to stand on).
I wasn't trying to criticise at all! Like you, I assumed the original reference to 1928 must have been to the Congress, but then I had a feeling I
remembered the date as 1932 so I went and checked - not to correct you but because, like you, this makes me wonder about the significance of 1928.
And the point about modern west and traditional east was a general point, not at all directed at you - there seems to be a tendency to make this
generalisation when people engage in lamenting the decline of any non-western culture.
Profuse apologies for the misunderstanding!
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DaveH
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PS. the Mark Thorn article references a book chapter by Ali Jihad Racy that I photocopied. I'm going to go and look that out too.
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Masel
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Ok Dave, but I do want to say that I don't know how the official argument ended but obviously the piano (or synthisyzer) was brought to the middle
east along with electric guitar and other intstuments, and now, 71 years after the legendary conference we can look back to the past and see what was
for them still the future - I have very rarely (with some north-african music and maybe Omar Khorshid aside) heard middle eastern music that uses
western instruments like piano or guitar, or musical infuences in a way that I liked.
I am old fashioned when it come to middle eastern music because most people making these experiments do not succeed in keeping true to the spirit of
the music and end up making something mediocre.
I should add though that I play in a hard/classic rock band and our "vision" is to combine these two different musical worlds (for me the perfect yin
and yan of music!) into one, but only in a way that is true to what is really beautiful about middle eastern music and yet rock at the same time. We
are still not there. This takes alot of practice and again I've barely heard any experiments that I've really liked.
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Edward Powell
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...this is a continuation of my latest rant over on the another thread - in which I try to make a case for the Turk makam system as being the original
and more highly developed and worthy of greater recognition.
Now, just taking some time to think about what I wrote, and also what possible reasons could be behind the current status quo--- it occured to me
that the issue of FORM is also significant.
For example I was just about to write that although it appears that the Arab maqam is not as 'developed' as it's Turkish counterpart, I would add that
it does appear that Arab music has developed very highly in terms of FORM.
No question however about the sophistication for in Turkish FORM as exemplified in the AYIN... however, the AYIN and other forms of Turkish music
have not seemed to develop or even do too much since the end of the Ottoman times....
On the other hand, really a lot has happened in Egypt since the departure of the Turks... in fact this country has witnessed an unprecidented Golden
Age of maqam music in the middle of this last century harolded by the careers of such monsters [meaning GREAT] as Kalsoum and Waheb.
It seems to me that about 100 or so years ago FORM in Arab music was not particularly highly developed [correct me!]... but what has happened, thru
primarily the GREAT career of Om Kalsoum is that this FORM has developed magnificantly, and Arab maqam music has absolutely thrived [even if it is now
dead].
It occured to me that THIS is the primary reason why the Arab oud and the Arab maqam is considered the original and the greatest - simply because of
the tremendous validity it has proved of itself in the last century ---- compared to not much happening on the Turk front since the Ottoman times.
The result of which seems that the world seems to have forgotten that the primary source of today's makam music internationally is in fact Turkish in
origin.
...that is, unless we start looking at where it came from before it developed so highly in Turkey.
- - -
ps- all of these are only my not very perfectly informed opinions. Please correct me if need be.
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ALAMI
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Edward, I have to disagree with you on the form development issue,
The impact of Oum Kalsoum (and Abdel Wahab) great carreers has probably led to some regression in musical Forms.
The second part of the 19th and first half of the 20th century witnessed a renaissance in music known under the name of "Al Nahda", the fathers of
this renaissance were Abdo Al Hamouli and Mohamad Osman both composers of great Adwar, Mouwashahat and Mawals.
The leading form was Al wasla, it is a long form where the ensemble (Takht) and the singer would immerse the public in one single main maqam (with a
lot of modulations) for 45 minutes or an hour with alternated musical pieces and songs, the musical pieces were: Tahmila, samai, doulab, bashraf and
the songs were Dawr, Mawal, Mouashah, Qasida and sometimes it ended with a rhytmic Taktouka.
Al wasla was the ultimate immersive tarab form mixing all forms with an emphasis on improvisation, this form sticks with the true ethymoligycal
meaning of Maqam: "A place to stay", they used to stay 30 minutes to one hour in 1 maqam.
The controversial 1932 convention is only a theoretical breaking point, the convention labeled the living Hamouli and Osman school under the
"traditional" etiquette (what Masel refers to as Qadim), but the change didn't deeply occured until the fifties and it was more for political
reasons:
The new republic wanted to break with what was called "the Khedieval music" (the khediv being the King of Egypt ), Oum Koulsoum and Abdel wahab
supported Nasserism and the "modern progressive future" that Nasser was promising. The regime was controlling the ultimate "musical weapon": the
radio.
The "old school" was doomed.
I will try to put on ftp some surviving records of full waslas.
Hamouli and Osman used to compose with Improvisation in mind, what the great Abdel Wahab, Kasabji and Sunbati didn't. For me this is where things
really changed and where Form started regressing.
One final note, referring to Turkish/Arabic schools a century and so ago can be misleading in the way that it didn't meant then what it means now,
they were both still under the Ottoman empire and nationalisms where just starting to take form, Abdo Al Hamouli was sent to Istanbul by the Khediv
and he went back with the Hijaz Kar that was unknown in Egypt, back then it was just a maqam "from another region" not "a Turkish" Maqam.
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Masel
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Thank you ALAMI I would LOVE to hear those records please share them with us.
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Edward Powell
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Great!
This [and on the other thread] is the kind of response I was hoping for---- I really need this education and look forward to follow up by studying
these posts much further. . . and hopefully with examples of everything...
I hope to get my laptop back tomorrow from service, so let's hope my research can continue...
THANKS SO MUCH
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ALAMI
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The Egyptian Wasla:
1- Wasla Bayati - Saleh Abdel Hay
2- Wasla Rast - Marie Joubran
3- Wasla Nahawand - Marie Joubran
The Aleppian Wasla
1- Sikah - Adib Al Dayekh
2- Bayyati - Adib Al Dayekh
The Aleppian wasla is also called Al Fasel and is more oriented towards Muwashah, Mawal and Kasida
Better to right click on the abv links and choose "save link as.." (the files are about 10 MB each)
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Edward Powell
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| Quote: | Originally posted by ALAMI
Edward, I have to disagree with you on the form development issue,
The impact of Oum Kalsoum (and Abdel Wahab) great carreers has probably led to some regression in musical Forms.
The second part of the 19th and first half of the 20th century witnessed a renaissance in music known under the name of "Al Nahda", the fathers of
this renaissance were Abdo Al Hamouli and Mohamad Osman both composers of great Adwar, Mouwashahat and Mawals.
The leading form was Al wasla, it is a long form where the ensemble (Takht) and the singer would immerse the public in one single main maqam (with a
lot of modulations) for 45 minutes or an hour with alternated musical pieces and songs, the musical pieces were: Tahmila, samai, doulab, bashraf and
the songs were Dawr, Mawal, Mouashah, Qasida and sometimes it ended with a rhytmic Taktouka.
Al wasla was the ultimate immersive tarab form mixing all forms with an emphasis on improvisation, this form sticks with the true ethymoligycal
meaning of Maqam: "A place to stay", they used to stay 30 minutes to one hour in 1 maqam.
The controversial 1932 convention is only a theoretical breaking point, the convention labeled the living Hamouli and Osman school under the
"traditional" etiquette (what Masel refers to as Qadim), but the change didn't deeply occured until the fifties and it was more for political
reasons:
The new republic wanted to break with what was called "the Khedieval music" (the khediv being the King of Egypt ), Oum Koulsoum and Abdel wahab
supported Nasserism and the "modern progressive future" that Nasser was promising. The regime was controlling the ultimate "musical weapon": the
radio.
The "old school" was doomed.
I will try to put on ftp some surviving records of full waslas.
Hamouli and Osman used to compose with Improvisation in mind, what the great Abdel Wahab, Kasabji and Sunbati didn't. For me this is where things
really changed and where Form started regressing.
One final note, referring to Turkish/Arabic schools a century and so ago can be misleading in the way that it didn't meant then what it means now,
they were both still under the Ottoman empire and nationalisms where just starting to take form, Abdo Al Hamouli was sent to Istanbul by the Khediv
and he went back with the Hijaz Kar that was unknown in Egypt, back then it was just a maqam "from another region" not "a Turkish" Maqam.
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Thanks SO much for this music!!!
Do you know approximate what year these were recorded?
Other than composing in such a way as to perhaps limit improvisation - in what other ways to do you feel that Waheb and Sombati's composing signifies
a degradation of form and a modernisation? Certainly the maqam usage remained intact, no? ...to my ears, this "new" music sound more complex in terms
of individual melody length. . . of course one can hear in O.K.'s most recent work, a definite shift towards even Western pop - but O.K.'s older
stuff sounds a lot like these Waslas. . . . . but my ears are not well trained to hear all differences yet...
thanks
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ALAMI
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The Egyptian waslas recordings are from around the thirties, they are shorter than regular waslas due to recording media limit.
Adib Aldayekh recordings are from a recent CD (early 1990s) but in the ancient form (he died 2 years ago)
The degradation of form can also be perceived in the the bigger ensembles, the takht of Oum Kalthoum reached 15 musicans in the late 30s and kept
growing to a full orchestra with guitar and keyboard in the 70s. But already with 15 musicians, oud and Qanun were unable to compete with the bowed
instruments in term of volume. Abdelwahab went very far with the use of western instruments. The role of the musician was reduced in term of
individuality and takasims were no longer allowed on stage. They were reintroduced much later on by Farid but then they were more the expression of
the master's virtuosity than a maqamian establishing.
Another aspect is the simplification of the melodic phrase, it was done by all the composers of the new school: Qasabji, Zakariya Ahmad, Sunbati and
Abdel Wahab. Maqams were still there and even unusual maqams were used (Qasabji wrote a song for Oum Kalthoum on Mahur which was never used as a main
Maqam), the fact that the public should be able to easily learn and repeat a song has become a la mode, something that the press was praising: "The
next day, everybody in the
streets was singing the new song of Al Sitt". (Al Sitt=The Lady= Oum K)
Long complex phrasing has become old school..."Qadim".
Abdel Wahab was a master of modulation but there was no time left for any maqam rooting, even the mawal was precomposed. Oum Kalthoum kept
improvising but in a well framed parts of the song, even the voice ornamentations were pre programmed.
I know that it seems contradictory to call "the Golden era" a regression in form and many may disagree. The fact is that the regression that started
with the New School was invisible due to the immense talent of Sunbati, Oum Koulthoum, Abdel Wahab, Sayed Darwish, Zakaria Ahmad and Qasabji. Those
guys were formed at the old school and they were the heirs of a secular musical knowledge, those who came after this generation took their "regressed"
form but without their talent and their ancient knowledge and that's when and where we, suddenly, realized the regression.
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Edward Powell
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well.... this is ALL very interesting, insightful, and enlightening....
clearly i need to do a lot more listening to this "old school"... and wondering how I can do that...?
up til today I was under the impression that before this "new school" Arab music was much more simplistic. Short melodies which repeat - soloist once,
then the chorus etc etc... I was thinking that it was the 'new school' composers that brought in these very long non-repeating complex composed
melodies?
But now that I think of it, a few weeks ago I sat down and tried to learn one of O.K.'S very very early pieces. It was just a short piece with a very
smal takht... but i soon realised that THIS MELODY IS REALLY REALLY COMPLEX! And I simply could not find or recognise ANY sort of verse/chorus
shape or form... it just seemed to meander all over the place never repeating anything!
So i think that whay had fooled me was the short length of the piece. Whereas the newer pieces are so long - but now that you mention it.... i was
also recently learning a newer OK piece (Baid Annak), and could very easily recognise the verse/chorus structure, and YES even sing along after only 2
or 3 listenings.
So, I guess these OK pieces from the late 20's are good examples of the OLD SCHOOL, right?
Now, how long has this old school been going on for --- meaning, when did these melodies begin getting so complicated?
- - -
So it is very interesting to note all of this... that in fact the degeneration began much earlier than i had ever imagined. It seems that the REAL
"golden age" must have been - what - from around 1850ish to 1930???
So Qudud is actually the most sophisticated and developed stuff? Wow...
I learning, slowly. . . .
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Masel
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THANK you ALAMI, for the music which I am now downloading and for sharing your great knowledge. It is always interesting when you contribute.
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katakofka
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Great recordings Alami. Thanks
Adib el deeyih..wooww... beside the music the erotic lyrics (the poem) are amazing especially when he says " al nahhhhhd" (woman breast), he's
emphasizing on the "h".
Alami, do you know for whom are the lyrics??
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ALAMI
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Hi Souheil, you're from the Mashriq, you're predisposed to be touched by this repertoire.
Adib El Dayekh was an amazing guy, he started his life as Muezzin and was a confirmed sufi, his poetry is medieval, the tracks are from a CD called
"L'amour courtois", here is what we read on the cover:
"Ghazal, the refined art of the Arab courteous poetry From Persian origin, the ghazal is regarded as the highest kind of Levantine of poetry and the
great mystics who were Hâfez, Sa' di and Rûmî were the most refinet poets of the art. Very quickly this poetry of love with spiritual resonances
was spread in the majority of the Oriental countries of Islamic culture and more particularly in the educated social class linked to the various
brotherhoods of the Sufism. From Turkey to India,, the Arab world in the Central Asia, this refined lyric kind inspired by many artists, sensitive to
subtleties with dialectical erotism in which the human love becomes the symbol of the mystical union, the spiritual reference makes it possible to
justify the flow of the most terrestrial passions.
Adib Daiykh adulated, artist in his country, Master of the qasîda (impromptu poem) and the vocal improvisation, expresses the most purified erudite
tradition the Arab East. He is perhaps the only contemporary singer whose so flexible and high perched voice recalls with a certain nostalgia the Arab
singers of the beginning of the century."
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ALAMI
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Edward guess is right, the "Nahda" period in Egypt is between the mid 19th century and the 1930s.
But before going back to Egypt at the period where "Al Dawr" was considered as the highest musical form and the star of Al Wasla, I propose 2
recordings of 2 popular and well known classical Egyptian Dawrs composed by Muhamad Osman with the voice of another great voice from Alep: Muhamad
Khairy, he was the teacher of Sabah Fakhry and an amazing "old school" singer
1- Muhamad Khairy - Ebaatly Gawab
2- Muhamad Khairy - Asl El Gharam
All the "New School" composers we talked about have also composed great Dawrs (Adwar) :
Abdel Wahab - Ya Garata Al Wadi by Nour El Houda
Sunbati - Leh Ya Banafsag
Zakaria Ahmad - Dayaet Moustakbal Hayati
Be patient to download, those pieces are long....
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