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Edward Powell
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POST COLONIAL "arabic" music & culture
...perhaps opening up a topic that nobody really wants to talk about of look at? But, I feel, for those of us who love oud and oud music - we better
get busy and face the reality of the situation.
First of all, this "oud community" found here at Mike's, is only a fleeting "virtual reflection" of a great music which existed in the past. When
reading this forum and visiting youtube etc. we are left with the impression that oud and it's native music are alive and well in the world today.
Well, I am sorry to tell you folks, but after 3 months living in the heart of Cairo - this is far from the true reality according to the "facts on the
ground".
So.... what happened? Where did the oud's native music disappear to? ...or how is it that it has changed into something unrecognisable and at the
same time retained it's original name?!
This is my take on it, it's called "post-colonisation".
I think that partly nobody wants to talk about this or even look at it because in truth it is very embarrassing for both Arabs and the colonisers. In
school when I was beaten up in the playground, I wanted myself and everyone else to completely forget the incident as soon as possible, and therefore
ignored all future reference to the incident.
If I can use the playground analogy to explain how I see the situation call Post-Colonisation". If we are on the school playground (or the 'global
playground') and the new Bully comes over to me and beats me up --- what will be the result of that? For sure, secretly I will probably forever hate
him but I will also always respect him because he proved that he was stronger than I. Now, if I later notice that this Bully is also living a pretty
comfortable lifestyle, maybe has a really nice new car, beautiful cloths, going to partys and having sexy girlfriends etc etc etc... then I compare
how he is living to my own level... then for sure I am going to start respecting him even more and even try to copy his way of doing things.
In my opinion this is exactly what has happened in the Arab world. British, French, and American Bullies came around and beat up the Arabs. Then
propogated the idea that Western lifestyle is the best. So Arabs, although secretly resenting the West, began to greatly respect their conquerors and
consequently copy unquestioningly everything about Western culture except religion.
But we know that even if certain ideas and ways of doing things work well in a particular socio-geographic-ecomonic situation, it does not mean that
those same ideas will work equally well in a totally different part of the world. A plant which evolves and develops in England, suddenly uprooted and
planted in the Sahara will not fare very well for very long.
The last wave of colonisation experienced by the Arabs not only came from a source which was culturally VERY far away (unlike the Ottomans, Persian,
and Greek rulers of the past who shared a strong cultural link with the Arabs), but this colonial period came to an "end" very suddenly. The result
was a cultural shock for the region of unprecidented and dramatic proportion.
Arabs were forced to make far-reaching cultural, political, and ecomonic policy decisions very suddenly without first having time to breathe and to
reflect. Being an oppressed people they currently lacked the educated brain power to think it thru and act in their own best interested.... in fact,
all they know was how their colonisers had done things so there seemed no choice but to continue in the same mold. And furthermore, this seemed most
desirable considering the power and high living standard boasted by the West.
Cars and highways are not something belonging to Arab culture, and I can tell you that they have utterly ruined Egyptian cities. I was just in
Alexandria ("beautiful Alex"), and yes, it must have been beautiful at one time.... but now... well, if you don't mind the incredible noise and
pollution and ugliness of the omnipresent automobile, then you may like it there.
Not even talking about music, Egyptian culture has been twisted out of recognision - just walk down any street in Cairo and try to imagine how the
same street looked 100 years before! You will not even find one single public park in Cairo - the concept doesn't exist. Yes, you can find beautiful
green parks in ALL Western cities - - now doesn't this prove that Arabs have taken the worst from the West, and ignored to best things?
I lay my words wide open to critisism fire away
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danieletarab
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Thank you for your post Edward..
I agree with you and I always think of what you said when I get involved into "philologiacl" discussions about traditional music.
I play "folk" and "medieval" sicilian music myself, and I realize day by day that this music lost its main feature: it's not popoluar anymore. What I
want to say is that while I'm searching for old sicilian tunes, my parents care just about italian pop songs from 60s and 70s, and I have to teach
them the songs that they were supposed to sing when they were young!
Sicily, as well as arabic countries passed through a very quick and shocking colonialism (even thought it was mainly a cultural colonialism), and from
the poor and rural country it was, it had to become a european country in few years with the result that now when you come in Sicily you don't
understand if you are in europe or in North Africa.
Lots of musicians here re-arrange old sicilian tunes in an "arabic" style, since the arabic domination has been very strong in Sicily and oud and ney
were very common and widely used instruments.
But obviously, this is just an intellectual way to approach music.
When you play traditional stuff, you don't play for the folks, for the people, but just for some intellectuals of the middle-high class. People from
the countryside want to hear just italian pop songs.
And the same thing happens in arabic countries, where a terrible "arabic pop" (which mix togheter the worst sides of arabic and western music) took
the place of traditional or maqam art music.
Here it's the same.. Sicilians shop owners call their shops (broadway, Las Vegas, House of shoes, american pub etc..), the 99 per cent of young
musicians play rock from Engalnd or USA, and the only italian music that becomes famous is usually copied from english or american pop.
We are tring to keep alive something that is completely dead, and we have to accept that what we are doing, it's not going to change anything, but it
is just a warm blanket for our poor poetical mind that still dreams of ancient times, purity of music, ancestral sounds.
Arabians have been beaten up, sicilians have been beaten up, we have been beaten up.
Now we have 2 choihes: following the winner (in that case we could sell our beautiful ouds to buy a nice midi electrical guitar!), or keep on living
our dream despite of all..
The positive thing is that there are always more and more people that are getting fed up with modern music (heavy drums, electronic, lots of sounds,
keyboards, overdrive guitars etc), and they are looking for something more authentical, something whose meaning stands in History.
Thanks again for your intresting post, and may the sound of oud never leave this world!
daniele
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Edward Powell
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| Quote: | Originally posted by danieletarab
We are tring to keep alive something that is completely dead, and we have to accept that what we are doing, it's not going to change anything, but it
is just a warm blanket for our poor poetical mind that still dreams of ancient times, purity of music, ancestral sounds.
Arabians have been beaten up, sicilians have been beaten up, we have been beaten up.
Now we have 2 choihes: following the winner (in that case we could sell our beautiful ouds to buy a nice midi electrical guitar!), or keep on living
our dream despite of all..
The positive thing is that there are always more and more people that are getting fed up with modern music (heavy drums, electronic, lots of sounds,
keyboards, overdrive guitars etc), and they are looking for something more authentical, something whose meaning stands in History.
Thanks again for your intresting post, and may the sound of oud never leave this world!
daniele |
Very very well said Daniele!
Yes, the one thing that nobody can take away from us is our dreams.
However I do apologise for being negative minded - partly it is the cumulative stress of being in Cairo for 3 month without a break... I have not had
one short breath of fresh air in almost 3 months.
I think there is a great value in discussing these issues (but to a point of course), and raising awareness.
I guess I have always been at a point of acceptance that Art music is almost always simply for a very small and select audience. Of course there have
been exceptions to this - for example in various forms of Art music which had perhaps just a touch of pop influence that made it into the big time. Om
Kalsoum herself is an example of this. Or in the West, prog.rock groups like YES. ...and of course not all pop music has been bad. The Beatles for
example gave us really great music, which of course was very much pop.
Anyway, as long as we are alive, and there are people like us who really care about quality in music, then there is still hope - and nobody can take
our dreams and our values away from us 
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Christian1095
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I think you lay too much at the feet of Western Oppressors.... Speaking only of music.....
Empty souless, techno crappy music is extremely popular EVERYWHERE.... If you listen to pop radio in ANY country... you'll mostly hear bad music.
For the folks on this board, we all got into the oud not because we heard it on a pop song, but because we heard the sounds the instrument make and
are touched by it.... But this is the same for guitar as well.... If you go to an accoustic guitar board, chances are they're not asking eachother
for the notes to pop songs... Same here... For the most part, music is kept alive by musicians.... I think that as musicians, we'll invest our
efforts into making music that we find has value... and that is where things are alive and well....
But, if we're using music as a reflection of cultural values, then we're in a cultural mess across the board... cause there are very few songs out
there that are popular to the masses that I really dig... and my musical tastes are pretty varied.
But using this as another example of how "Western Influence" has ruined the culture of Egypt is false logic in my opinion.... Popular music sucks
just about everywhere... and as musician's we're better able to hear it sucking as opposed to mindlessly bobbing our heads in tune with the music....
That makes us more sensative to the badness of modern pop.... And while there may be something to the ideas you present around colonialism... I think
that's a topic for another forum... But music-wise - I think Egypt is just a victem of the same thing the US is... the masses like crappy music....
Chris Walters
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Edward Powell
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All very very good points Chris.
Very likely I have a resentment against Western colonialists, and use the "pop music issue" to channel my anger against them...
Being in the heart of Cairo for 3 months puts you face to face with a lot of things to feel frustrated about... however, I would not trade this
experience!
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fhydan
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I think what you say about music is correct to a degree. Popular arabic music nowadays is trash, I would not even listen to it. Arabic music maybe
slowly losing its soul, but I don't think it is at that stage yet. But then, you seem to really know what you talk about with regards to music and I
think in the other post you mentioned going to classical music symphonies there and had acquired that impression.
However, I disagree with you broadening that to all culture...
| Quote: | Arabs in general don't know who they are anymore.[\quote]
This would have given me a terrible impression about you if you hadn't mentioned you were visiting Cairo for some months on a forum all about ouds and
their music. It sounds to me like you are disappointed that your experience was not as "exotically beautiful" as you had expected it to be. I may be
judging you by your post by saying that, but so were you judging my culture from a few months in a country I've never been to. Just because the arabs
you encountered in egypt are not the arabs you were imagining on your flight to cairo doesn't mean they don't know who they are, it just means that
you didn't.
Yes, I wish that we had the time to slowly adopt to all the changes in the world in a way that retained the beauty of the past, but that wasn't the
case. This doesn't mean we lost our culture. I've never been to egypt, and I'm sure what you said about Alexandria being a noisy metropolis is true.
That doesn't mean it lost it's culture, only the touristic shallow shell.
I'm sure you don't mean it, but that comment just reeks of orientalism and it bothers me.
Oh and, how many streets do you know looked the same a hundred years ago? |
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Edward Powell
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Yes, I knew when I wrote that comment that I was 'going too far', but in fact I left it in in order to provoke a little bit in the hope of getting a
good discussion going.
It is a GROSS overgeneralization, and I apologise - however, to a large degree, I still believe there is a lot of truth in that statement - HOWEVER,
what I neglected to add is that IT IS NOT ONLY ARABS who don't know who they are anymore... in fact, it would have been just/or more accurate to say
that HUMANS don't know who they are anymore.
Afterall, does a Canadian know who he is more than an Arab??? ...definitely not! Even less! Does a North American person think daily about the
genocide committed by his forefathers against the native indians?
Globalisation has had a profound effect on the worlds indiginous cultures. On the one hand, in general - in terms of 'facts on the ground' and
mass/pop culture, globalisation is simply destroying (in-directly of course) localism in all forms of culture.
But on a more positive note, globalisation has transformed the FACE of culture. It is weird, really! In Egypt literally nobody cares at all about
oud..... but look now at the internet, this forum, youtube etc etc etc and the free availability of oud culture (for example) is staggering,
therefore a tiny community like ours, of oud fans scattered around the entire planet can exist, thrive, and keep that culture alive.
So maybe it is enough just to say that Arab music culture is CHANGING dramatically, and perhaps my disappointment is a result simply of my
expectations - and I was expecting to find something different that what I found.
But getting back to the original point of this thread - it does seem to me that Arab music lost much more than, for example Indian music. Indian music
is just now caming out of a GOLDEN ERA which seemed to have begun AFTER independence. ---they did not lose their original music.
Of course Arab music also experienced a golden era just after independence - the OUM KALSOUM era... but someone recently mentioned that it was
during the O.k. era that things started going wonky - and this went unnoticed because of O.K.'S stature (adding tons of violins and making the tunes a
bit more poppy etc).
I have spend 5 years in India, and about 2.5 years in the middle-east/northafrica, and my overwhelming impression is simply this:
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Indian culture has remain more strongly intact simply because it is geographically further away from Europe and America.
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Whenever i have been in the M.E./N.Africa I can FEEEEEEEEEL everywhere how close Europe is. Europe is simply very very close, and therefore it's
culture influence (positive or negative) has been profound.
----
again, these are only my current opinions, subject to revision at anytime. All of the above is wide open to critisism - THANKS
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fhydan
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Well, you certainly provoked this one.
Yeah, I was actually just reading that other post and listening to all the dawr recordings, wonderful things.
On a more serious note, though. I've only been reading this board for about a day and it seems like there is this shared notion of music degenerating
from more complex forms and maqams towards a haifa wahbe kind of dystopia.
If you'd like to see an Arabic culture that has its own rich musical tradition and is much less westernized than northern africa I'd recommend looking
into yemen. I don't have the musical background to tell you how but I can always tell the difference between yemeni or arabian(meaning the arabian
peninsula) and music from northern africa and the laveant which are very rich in their own but are quite different. I can sometimes often hear turkish
elements in egyptian music, french in lebanese music. I've been told that our music(the peninsula) has some indian and persian influences in it, but I
haven't listened to enough of either of those traditions to spot the similarities.
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fhydan
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Oh and you may want to look into sudan for the fun of it. Sudan has its own musical tradition that sounds like no other 'Arab' music. I don't know
much about the sudanese music except that it is pentatonic (sp?)
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Edward Powell
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| Quote: | Originally posted by fhydan
However, I disagree with you broadening that to all culture... |
In fact, this is off the original topic somewhat, but I must say very strongly that this loss of culture is very very strongly felt in all areas, not
only music.
I have had contact with many egyptians from various levels of society, and one thing is STRIKINGLY CLEAR, is that they embrace the MODERN INDUSTRIAL
MATERIALISTIC DREAM unquestioningly! Their idea of success and getting ahead is unwaveringly based on getting a high paying job (doesn't matter at all
if it is in an extremely polluting industry), and owning a new car.
sorry to sound cynical, but it is clear that the VAST majority of egyptians are mostly interested in money, cars, and pop culture. In fact, you only
need to walk anywhere in cairo for 2 minutes and this fact is totally obvious. There is absolutely no care or consideration for the natural
environment. In a city of 25 million people there are NO public parks (ok, someone mentioned to me there are a few patches of grass in alahzer park?).
No pollution control on vehicles. Every water-side walkway has an enormous road just beside. . . and very highly educated egyptians are beeming with
pride at how BEAUTIFUL the seaside walk in alexandria is!!!!?
I truly apologise if what I am saying offends anyone, I do not mean it that way ---- but I like to think of myself as person who tries not to hide his
head in the sand --- CAIRO IS AN ENVIRONMENTAL DISASTER AREA, PERIOD! ...on the other hand I LOVE IT! but the cars, traffic, and TOTAL (!!!!!)
environmental disregard have completely ruined the place. If you don't agree, then come here and have a smell for yourself. Just walk out the door and
count how many cars you see! The situation is just totally absurd, but we humans now have become so totally accustomed to cars, pollution, noise, and
utter lack of vegatation and fresh air/water that we don't even notice anymore.
.....or, maybe they are noticing - but what is the REACTION? When I asked my good friend here why she just bought a new car, she said that it is
impossible to walk anywhere anymore in Cairo because there are too many cars and too much pollution.... so therefore it is NECESSARY to have your own
car!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!????????????????
Islam is still strong here, but the REAL God is the car. Is the "car" a part of Arab Culture??
NO!
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Edward Powell
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YES! Yemen (and Sudan)
In fact I was just over at Antar's place and we were listening to yemenese oud.
Actually, at first I was explaining to him some differences between Ragas and Makams and saying that in makams generally you have 7 note 'scales' and
you play up and down and do not need to "leap-frog" over any notes. However in many ragas, you must do this leapfrogging, and in general have to pay
attention to particular specific ascending and descending orders of notes.
One common raga form (found in for eg. ragas bhim palasi, multani, madhuvanti, desh, jhinjhoti and many others) is 5 notes up and 7 notes down. When I
mentioned to Antar that this doesn't exist in makam, he screamed and said that it DOES EXIST in Yemenese makam!
We then listened to some Yemenese oud music and sure enough they were playing Bayati 5 notes up and 7 down... Antar said that he thinks that they got
this idea actually from Indian music. It is beautiful and totally unique - to me sort of halfway between the fully pentatonic style of Sudan, and the
7 note "Arab" style.
Funny how what we "expect" tends to often be the opposite. I had alway expect yemenese music to be not the REAL Arab music, and that REAL Arab music
would only be found in Cairo..... I think, as you mention, the total opposite is probably the real truth. ---and looking at the map, yes, yemen
is just hidden way down there under everything - - -
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fhydan
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The yemeni musical tradition is indeed very unique and really old. I don't know about calling it anymore real arab than say the egyptian one. They're
all just as 'arab', I would think, except that the egyptian is much more influenced by Turkish music. Arab music is actually pretty diverse in the
sense that calling any one tradition as the REAL stuff is, I believe, misleading. This may sound to be political-correct crap, but listen to Iraqi
music and then to sudanese music both of which are arab and try to find anything shared between them!
If you'r still looking for musical forms that are arabic and rather different than the turkish school of music that you, you might want to look into
music from the gulf as well. Musical theory over there is not refined at all and it is as far as I know a mostly oral tradition in terms of learning.
I hear the same maqams in egyptian or even turkish music, but the way they are used is completely different. For example, huzam sounds really
different, so does bayat, and to a lesser degree rast. Nahawand is much less commonly used traditionally, so is kurd. I've never heard anyone play
ajam except for one yemeni oudist.
If you want a more expressive system in terms of being 'refined' and 'complicated', then I'd suggest iraqi music. I don't know much about it, but it
has its own maqams as well as somethings called maqams but are not exactly the same as what we may call maqams.
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Edward Powell
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Thank you for these inspiring thoughts and suggestions!
...then there is always Azeri "mugham"... and even Persian - - - -....... there really is SO much left. We must preserve it all!
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Christian1095
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CAIRO IS AN ENVIRONMENTAL DISASTER AREA, PERIOD!
When was the last time you were in Philidelphia? )
II was there in Cairo in 88' and it was a noisy crowded city. At the time I was living in Naples Italy, which was, and still is, a noisy, crowded
city. Also, realize that cities in NA tend to be a lot more spread out... There were no real parks in Naples either... but here in Charlotte,
they're everywhere.... Also, in NYC, other than Central park, how many parks are there? (I honestly don't know... )
I think the broader issue is around how a government chooses to allocate it's resources.... It's hard to think about parks and what not when you have
a larger issue of unemployment, economic stability, etc.... This pain will be a lot more noticable in Cairo than in Hamburg or London since the
economic problems are of different scales.
------------------------------------------
In terms of music, I really like what little music I've heard from the Sudan... Mostly Hamza el Din.... so if you have any other artists I should
look up, please share.... Also, who are some good oud players from Yemen?
-------------------------------------------
One of the things that has struck me is that I don't hear a lot of Oud in popular music.... But on the board it's alive and well.... From my own
perspective, I think it's changing to something more primal.... For example, there's all this synth music out there that most of us think is trash...
but I would be curious as to how many of us play in groups with a keyboard player in our group? And how central is the role of the oud in our
ensembles.... I would imagine the role is pretty important.... and most of us aren't too keen on a keyboard....
In your travels in Egypt... what do the oud players there do? Is it taqsim performances, or are they playing in small accoustic groups... From my
perspective, a half a world away and only connected by the internet, I see the oud as part of a sort of 'folk rock' movement away from the synth music
-- but getting back to the roots....
For me, that's the music I want to make... so no synth for me... just give me the raw accoustic tunes with a little bit of guitar or violin thrown
in.... but then again, I live in North Carolina, USA -- so I realize that my experiance will be far removed from many others.... That being said, I
look at what we as a group are doing and it spans from jazz ensembles, to small groups playing folk music (like Marina) and I see it alive and well...
But I listen to pop music and even though I don't hear the oud, I wonder what it would sound like 'unplugged' -- once my skill level is there I will
be curious to try it out and integrate it... but for now, I'm just trying to learn the instrument and not butcher the maqams....
So, for me, my 'vision' of where the oud fits in with ME music would be most similar to how the Grateful Dead, Phish, and Rusted Root fits in with
popular Western music..... I don't see it as being mainstream... but I do see it having a place.
Chris Walters
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Edward Powell
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unfortunately there are no small groups (good ones) focused around oud --- and there are no solo oud concerts (very very little of this going on in
Cairo).
There are a lot of these sort of "Egyptian Songs" groups - and there is some oud used.
Also there are the standard sort of "State Ensembles" playing post-colonial-style Arab classical... and might hear the occational taksim.
But really serious small ensemble - high musicianship - art music groups I have not seen here. Quite a disappointment.
But still it has been a great trip because there is still enough oud going on here - and combined with the ENORMOUS amount available on youtube - I
can sort of fill in the missing pieces of the puzzel quite well this way.
Funny, the way life is always 50/50... somehow a balance is always maintained - - - for example, and the availablilty of oud music "on the ground"
dries up, the availablility on the Internet skyrockets!
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SamirCanada
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While your in Cairo...
try and get in touch with the Al-Oyoun guys...
They are a band/taqht who played with Naseer Shamma on his CD Hilal.
Hany el-Badry is the nay player there perhaps Mohamed knows him. He is one of the most amazing nay players I have ever heard and he was really
friendly to when I met him in montreal 2 years ago.
anyways these guys played the real stuff at that concert even though they accompanied Naseer they were playing classical arabic and egyptian music in
a brilliant way.
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frao
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it's an interesting topic you brought up here.
it's really difficult to understand how colonialism works but i think it's rather shallow to state that locals simply see something that is 'better'
(shiny cars, sexy girls, all in all Power). what is 'betterness' is a relative concept given that it can not be autonomous from the sphere of everyday
life that locals inhabit.
the colonized communities are first deprived of their means of living by imposing a new objective reality that no subject can escape. what is this
objective reality (surely constituted by a multitude of subjects) is really difficult to say. the fact is that it deprives people of what they are and
gives them identities to cling to. for instance, in case of musicians, before colonialism (that works on both colonized and colonizer countries)
musician was someone who plays music. that's it - a given person is called-musician because of his gestures, because of what he does. in the colonized
space a given person is no longer a musician but a person that is seen as a musician, someone with an identity of a musician. a given person works an
ordinary job and is a musician in spare time, thus he is not a musician and music is his hobby. the other given person is a professional musician and
works as a musician, thus he is not a musician and music is his job. music, just like everything else, is incorporated into the logic of the colonizer
culture and is seen not as a fact, not as a gesture among people, bus as a new kind of identity. there is a whole lot of music as a commodity and no
musicians at all.
perhaps there is another situation that would illustrate the same condition more clearly. take the listeners. what is music in the community? it is
something that is shared with the people around, with the people present. how could any of those people say that he or she 'listens' to this or that
type of music in a sense in which we use the word ('i listen to sharqi music', 'i listen to rock', etc)? it's only when music is turned into a
commodity people have a choice to 'listen' to this or that type of music. however, no-one has a choice to hear it as a gesture among people who are
present.
and what does the beating up mean? the new objective order is nothing but economy. politics of oiconomia. culture of oiconomia. and society of
oiconomia, which for the first time becomes that which it is called by - a mass of people connected to one unitary order of Things. however, Cargo
Cult is nothing universal thus communities have a certain immunity for things that are imposed of them. this situation requires thousands of ways in
which individuals are incorporated into the new systems. i have been trying to figure out what connects all those people to the systems of
colonization that are so harmful in possibly any way imaginable. my hypothesis is that the colonizer system is based on insecurity, on making
individuals feel insecure in any way possible. that is why people are deprived of traditional ways of dealing with illnesses, hunger, shelter and so
on. by this communities are forced to accept security by the sovereign colonizer. what does music have to do with all that? music is 'culture', that
is a psychical tie with the world and it's affections. in words of marilyn monroe (left in her suicide note), "culture is the worst commodity of all -
it is the one that makes you buy all the others". on the other side of the spectre, communities do have immunity for all that is being imposed by
power. the present 'social' condition in almost any country in the world clearly reveals this fact.
i think it's rather meaningless to search for 'authenticity' because there is no such thing in a culture that is based on the fact that nothing is
authentic. however, there are un-colonized spaces almost anywhere. what i call un-colonized space could also be called community, or sharing. it
happens everywhere where people are present to share their music with others without falling into the claws of commodity. for it does happen, for
sure. the thing is that one can not look for something authentic in a traditional sense. there is nothing that escapes present reality that is
irrepairable. that is why there might be techno freaks in the streets collaborating with oudists or traditional singers. it might be the only thing
that is authentic in a post-modern (or even post-post-modern) sense.
i personally seek this presence. i try to find a way to share the music with the people who are present. however, i am myself nothing but an example
of this post-modern condition. i come from a background that has nothing to do with ouds. but in this de-localized era probably there rarely is any
cultural background (at least not in the 'west'). what matters much more, i think, is not authenticity of the sound, but the authenticity of presence,
of being with ourselves and being with others.
music, just like any other gesture, is an endless becoming. one can not preserve culture because it is not to be preserved. it's always in a state of
becoming something else and that happens through playing, singing and hearing. there is no way to 'save' that which is left for us from the past. you
can only play it.
tell me what you think.
up for Diogenian cynic naivette!
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charlie oud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 694
Registered: 11-19-2007
Location: Newcastle upon tyne. UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: chords prefer frets
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Hey Ed,
Two ladies come to mind, 1) your fellow country woman and fine singer, Joni Mitchell; "They've paved paradise, and put up a paking lot"........."
They took all the trees and put em in a tree museum" etc.......With her song "Big yellow taxi" she was telling a part of your story back in the 60's.
2) The other lady who comes to mind is an ex monarch of my own realm, Queen Victoria. I am refering to your comment on the stability of Indian
music in its homelands. You may be aware that Victoria named India Her/our "Jewell in the Crown" of the British Empire, such was her admiration for
the people and culture of this land. Yes, they fought us on and off and we could have done a better job of the transition to their independance, but
there still exists a unique and special relationship between Great Britain and India, one of genuine mutual respect. Especially culturally, and Indian
culture flourishes here in our Indian ethnic communities.
Now, regarding the demise of the oud. Its not the ouds fault. I believe it is a problem with Arabic music. Its so formulaic with its "seyirs" and
it's stuffy rules, its do's and dont's. How many more times do we have to hear people debate what is and is'nt a "real" Nahawand, bayati or any other.
Its Arabic music's overly self righteous view of itself which is making the oud an uncool option for someone who wants to make music. Especially
musicians who believe in the true spirit of improvisation.
For a would be musician the gutiar is far more attractive because the whole world and its many cultures say to that person, " Its ok you can
play whatever you like on your guitar". Where as with the oud you are immediately under pressure to play this way or that way, self proclaimed experts
appear and start saying what's right and what's not, what's good, what's bad. It is absurd.
Cairo sounds bloody awful.
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
Registered: 1-20-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: g'oud
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Yes, there is a big irony here: "trying to SAVE a particular music"... when in fact the very nature of an "alive/present" music is the fact that it
is always growing/changing/developing/evolving.
In fact it is the listeners choice - if he/she doesn't enjoy the new way that that music has "evolved", then he doesn't need to listen to that
anymore. It has no sense to complain about what can't be changed.
Furthermore, if I don't like how a particular music has changed, then I am free to play that music in the way I feel it would be better played --- in
fact I think that this is my duty as a musician. Perhaps this is the constant job of the musician, to try our best to 'lead' the music in a direction
that we feel has value.
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charlie oud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 694
Registered: 11-19-2007
Location: Newcastle upon tyne. UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: chords prefer frets
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Bravo Ed,
Now get yourself home mate, take your sitar for a trip to the rockies, sit in front of a glorious sunset, breathe some fresh air and play what you
see, re-connect with the "natural" world, that freedom. Its funny you know, when I play my sarod I feel in touch with the earth. I want to feel that
way with my oud too.C
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
Registered: 1-20-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: g'oud
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Funny you should mention this... my partner and I want to go to the mountains of BC this summer for some serious nature questing - - - and she
always wants me to play the sitar... She says that the sound of sitar opens her
heart 
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charlie oud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 694
Registered: 11-19-2007
Location: Newcastle upon tyne. UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: chords prefer frets
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Hey Frao,
Thats a fine piece you contributed to this thread. Am I correct in assuming you are familiar with the works of any of the following existential
philosophers: Simone de Beauvoir, Merleau-Ponty , Albert Camus, Kierkergaard, Martin Hiedeggar, Jean-Paul Satre.
The only reason I ask is because some of the material in your post is reminiscent of Existentialist thought. Camus' paper, "An authentic way of
being oneself", comes to mind.
Either way, it is true that an individual exists in a constant state of becoming which places a percieved reality at the centre of this
individual's understanding. Culture (therefore music) reflects or challenges this understanding. This is why it is not possible to preserve culture,
because preservation requires a static state and it would not be culture if it did'nt evolve continually with the becoming person.
Preserve onions, eggs, ouds, or anything else which is not subject to percieved reality only. We can agree on an ojective reality for an onion
or an egg.
Charlie.
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
Registered: 1-20-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: g'oud
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....yes, and hense the death of music from comoditization.
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Christian1095
Oud Junkie
Posts: 454
Registered: 4-29-2008
Location: North Carolina, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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But the cool thing is that all this connectivity has opened up VAST resources for those of us who have a passion for the instrument, but little or no
outlet.... We've got mountains in North Carolina... but not very many Oud players.... That is why forums like this one are such a blessing.
MikeOuds has opened up a whole new world for me and I suspect many others...
Chris Walters
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frao
Oud Lover
Posts: 23
Registered: 3-3-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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charlie: you might be right that i know all those names. it's a shame how fast we start communicating in codes/names. actually what i had in mind was
Agamben's notes on community that have much to do with Heidegger. that is, paying attention not to what of things but to how of things. but i say this
not of an academic interest. what i'm worried about is not whether one or another culture is going to stay or fade away (this has been happening since
the first cultures, from folk to written). what i'm truly worried about is whether cultures are going to <u>happen</u>. by using this word
i mean taking place of cultural elements inside the space that belongs to this or that culture.
up for Diogenian cynic naivette!
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