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charlie oud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 694
Registered: 11-19-2007
Location: Newcastle upon tyne. UK
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Mood: chords prefer frets
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Agamben, yes. I'm not that familiar with his work but am aware of some of his themes. I understand your concern over the "happening" of culture.
Culture as action. Maybe we can take some comfort from Agamben's notion of our existence consisting as "the possible" and "the potential". Now, if we
can view "culture", the "happening", as we can view human existence as "happening", or to use Agamben, as the action of "possibility" and
"potentiality", then it becomes highly unlikely that culture can cease to happen as there is no motionless state available to it. C
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frao
Oud Lover
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Registered: 3-3-2008
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i'm afraid there is a motionless state given to almost anything in the colonizer oicono-culture. anything that falls into the colonizer (aka spectacle
aka simulacra aka whateveryouwannacallit) framework is doomed to become its own representation. then the culture dies and we simply watch it convulse
and call it liveliness.
i hope there are people from the middle east who don't understand anything of what we're talking about. because this would mean that there are things
happening there. cause i know there are (that's why i'm leaving 'the west' (why do we keep referring to the colonizer like that? do we still believe
the earth is flat?)). anyhow, in the face of shiny cars, skyscrapers and high-tech despair those who still share their music with their
neighbors/families/friends in a communicative way will eventually find themselves in the underground of the metropolis. cause anything that is
communicative, anything that is happening goes underground in the current framework.
p.s. one of Agamben's main notions is that we deprive ourselves of the potential.
however, culture is not autonomous, dead and cold gadget. it happens, thus make it happen, do it. i suppose it's rather useless to complain that there
is no culture. it takes place the second you start it.
up for Diogenian cynic naivette!
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
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| Quote: | Originally posted by frao
...anything that is communicative, anything that is happening goes underground in the current framework. |
UNDERGROUND... yes...
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londonoudi
Oud Maniac
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Some really true stuff in your posts Ed.
'Islam is strong yet the real God is the Car'; is this the real problem? People worshipping money.
It is sad.
The important thing - what is the way forward? (I am sorry if I have missed the solution in another post).
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
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| Quote: | Originally posted by londonoudi
Some really true stuff in your posts Ed.
'Islam is strong yet the real God is the Car'; is this the real problem? People worshipping money.
It is sad.
The important thing - what is the way forward? (I am sorry if I have missed the solution in another post). |
Please watch this: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8527248226048886347
It is made very lightly and easy/entertaining to watch and follow... it is a MUST see.
What she suggests here is that currently the world's richest entities are not anymore Governments, but Corporations - 49/51... I believe the
corporations own more than 51% of everything, even 51% is enough to dramatically change the global "landscape" for the worse.
At least Governments are supposed to acting on the Peoples' behalf, but Corporations?? They only are expected to answer to their shareholders, and
the only thing the shareholders want is financial profit. Therefore at the present moment in our world the most important consideration (practically
the ONLY consideration) for those who hold power, is FINANCIAL GAIN.
Keeping this in mind, it is easy to understand how humanity has become so inhumane.
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WFBustard
Oud Addict
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The ship survived
storm passed
sun rises and sets
over stilled winds
changing tides,
becalmed-
she bobs, the crew wrestles in their hammocks, as before, dreaming, all may be lost.
Interesting topic but I couldnt think of much to say so I wrote a poem-
I think the world anyway one perceives it is truly a wonder.
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oudemir
Oud Lover
Posts: 12
Registered: 3-15-2009
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Mood: practicing
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WFBustard - Thanks for the inspired work!
Edward - You raise a unanimously perceived concern amongst ethnomusicologists, anthropologists, musicians and, really, the diminishing number of
people who care about culture; the imminent disappearance and dissolution of indigenous musical traditions (which are anachronistically being
subsumed, largely by "western" aka colonial musical traditions) threatens the direction of currently developing culture. Old tunings, melodies,
rhythms, techniques, and perhaps most importantly, the understandings of what they all mean in context, are dying out faster than they can be
documented!
Even some world/fusion/eclectic music paves over some of the finer details of the culture(s) it indubitably honors and draws from. e.g. "Let's take
that cool sounding hocketing "clip" and put it over that "groove" you programmed earlier." And then the next generation "buys that cd/mp3 album
instead of researching Pygmy culture.
But is this inexorable trend a "bad" phenomena? Can it be stopped? Should it? Maybe it's westernization. Human nature? Maybe it is just the tip of the
iceberg that melting into the tepid body of chaos theory. Entropy?
Thus I divulge er, diverge.
Sorry for the long post, but this one hits close to home.
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Butrous
Oud Maniac
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Edward,
Alsiadi, a Phd student and instructor at Rutgers, is teaching a course titled "Introduction to Arab Music" this semester. His students are posting
questions and comments to issues that concern you on the Forum page of alsiadi.com under the heading "Introduction to Arab Music".
He also has Maqamat and Music Scores pages which plays music notation using the real Aleppian maqamat as taught by Nadim Darwish the son of the
musician composer Ali Darwish.
You can see his oud taqasim on youtube.com on the channel "rastsol".
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jaron
Oud Maniac
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Is it possible we're worrying too much? There are frequent occasions in cultural history when cultural memory travels afar before revisiting old
haunts. For instance, the "West" forgot its classical heritage for centuries. It was remembered, however, by Arabic scholars. And then it traveled
back to Christendom. Who is to say that the legacy of the ancient Greeks has only one home?
When I visit some Asian countries like Korea, I find that they are doing more to keep European classical music alive than the Europeans are- and
meanwhile I show up playing ajaeng, which is an instrument almost no one in Korea thinks about these days.
The oud is on a journey around the world. We who love it give it shelter where it roams.
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
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Well for sure, the bottom line is to DOCUMENT DOCUMENT DOCUMENT!
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oudemir
Oud Lover
Posts: 12
Registered: 3-15-2009
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Yes! And we must be sure to document in a way that does justice to what we are documenting! Simply recording a performance does not capture the
tradition and reasoning a performer is guided by. We must know what questions to ask, how to ask them, and how to interpret/ relay the responses. It
is essential to tune our information filters to what is relevant within the system or culture we are studying. This is part of the insider/outsider
dilemma in ethnomusicology.
Judging from your posts Edward, you have had/continue to have sufficiently rich immersion in arabic music culture; you seem to have the "insider"
perspective. That perspective is absolutely essential for the integrity of cultural studies and documentation. You seem to be, among too few I am
certain, a passionate ambassador of the oud tradition. What, if I may ask, inspires your passion?
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
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| Quote: | Originally posted by oudemir
What, if I may ask, inspires your passion? |
I think I am on a life-long quest to get at the core of what beauty means to me.
I think that in the past humans were in constant danger from wild animals and such things, but now we are in the modern era, we think: "we are safe".
The vast majority of us are not aware of the dangers all around us. The corperate quest for profit is threatening every aspect of our lives and
existance... right from advertising unhealthy "food" as healthy, to grossly overcharging for healthcare when we get ill from that, to causing wars
to steal from other countries, to making money from selling weapons... to ...to ...to on and on...
We don't live in a safe period of history at all.
My "alternative" interests and views on life and art, culture, music, medicine, politics... etc etc are alternative simply because the "norm" seems
insane.
I guess, I feel that human culture is under the influence of mass delusion - a kind of mental illness. Sorry if this sound arrogant and judgemental.
But I think that the answer to the question of what inspires my passion - is that I truly want to experience and witnes what lies underneath this
layer of modern human insanity. There is something truly and humanly beautiful still alive there...
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oudemir
Oud Lover
Posts: 12
Registered: 3-15-2009
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Mood: practicing
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| Quote: | | I think I am on a life-long quest to get at the core of what beauty means to me. |
A noble goal indeed!
I recently listened to an interview with Carter Straud (see link below) about his first book titled Natural Selection's Paradox I which he
discusses, among many things, how the worship of money in modern culture has lead us away from healthy, sustainable values, true wealth, and
triggered the current global economic crisis. He argues that (at least in North America) the majority of wages are far too low, and the growing
economic disparity between super-rich and poor is fueling this economic collapse.
Perhaps if people were paid a decent wage and not systematically brainwashed to love money, they would have more time and energy to care about the
integrity of their culture (and learn the oud  or another
instrument/art form!)
Thoughts? Let's keep this thread alive!
http://www.kpfa.org/archive/id/49408
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acryl1
Oud Addict
Posts: 30
Registered: 8-6-2007
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Hi from Japan!
Thank you for such an interesting topic!
Post-colonization issue is also a deep problem to us Japanese.
After we were defeated by the Allies in the WWII and the American occupation policy, everything changed.
and I always regret the loss of Japanese good traditiion including cultures, spritual cultures, etc. in the past.
But this will be far from this topic, so I digress.
It was interesting that in YouTube video about "oud in Cairo", there were two opposite opinions.
Naseer Shammma said "Now is the golden time of oud" and Fathi Amin said "Oud tradition is dissapearing more and more"
Which is close to the reality?
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
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PLEASE TELL US ABOUT JAPANESE POST-COLONIZATION! THIS IS VERY INTERESTING!
For me personally, Japanese was the first foreign culture that I became VERY interested in. I am very interested to hear your opinions.
Both Naseer and Fathi are telling the truth. Oud is getting more and more popular - BUT original "oud tradition" is disappearing fast. Naseer plays
oud more like a guitar than an oud, and perhaps this is one of the reasons he has been so successful at luring people back to the instrument. There is
a paradox there.
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acryl1
Oud Addict
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Registered: 8-6-2007
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Edward,
I understand "paradox" you mean,
how you explain is a good help to understand this "paradox".
I respect Naseer as oudist though some of his style is not traditional one,
because he is a big power to enable many people to notice ouds anyway.
and I think we should estimate highly his style as making oud music gain capacity.
Regarding JAPANESE POST-COLONIZATION,
Firstly, Japan was NEVER colonized historically by any foreign countries including the West as a matter of fact.
Our ancestors strggled and fought so that we would not be victimized by the West when they approached us from hundreds years ago. Those days the
world was like the West's hunting field. Not only America continent, Middle East, Africa continent, but also India and China which are near us fell
victim to the West and they were suffering from hard times.
So we had to be westernized in science in order to fight against the West.(*)
But later there was the similar incident, which was Allied Nation's (mainly America's) occupation after WWII. It was just like colonization to
Japan.
That had some big points as below.
1. The whole Japan was completely under hypnosis of the GHQ implemented War Guilt Information (Brainwashing) Program and was made to believe
everything Japanese before WW2 was evil. Japanese are still bound by the spell.
Both General MacArthur (arrived Japan on August 30, 1945) and the Japanese Government at the beginning correctly interpreted that the acceptance of
the Potsdam Declaration by the Japan did not mean “the unconditional surrender of the Japan,” but it did mean “the unconditional surrender of
all Japanese armed forces” as stated in the Article 13 of the Declaration. Therefore as long as Japan complied with the Declaration Japan should
have had the equal right with the Allied Nations and the Japanese Government should have rejected the GHQ’s censorship.
2.We were made to abandon all our traditional ethics, spiritual culture, traditional culture as evil ones. Everything concerned to Japanese tradition
were linked to "Evil war caused by Japan".
3.Tokyo Tribunal of War Criminals enabled not only Japanese but also the poeple all around the world to believe that only Japan was bad and
nothing done by Allied Nations were to blame , even hundreds thousand of civilian victims by America's bombing including nuclear bombs to Hiroshima ,
Nagasaki
(Not only big cities like Tokyo or Osaka, but small local towns were attacked by indiscriminate bombing, and with the death of enormous numbers of
noncombatants. Industrial bases like factories, communication and transportation systems, and even schools, hospitals and houses were burnt to
ashes.)
The indiscriminate bombing by B-29 bomber and machine-gun fire by fighters killed numerous number of people, including the elderly, women and
children.Many Japanese officers and soldiers were hanged to death, but no Americans.
4.Japan's present constitution was promulgated in 1946, the year following the end of the Pacific War, and went into effect on May 3, 1947.
It enabled Japan to kowtow to USA.
Theodore Cohen, one of the most importan personells of GHQ reflcted on his role and witnessed later,
"Our main goal was to make Japanese family system collapse , make Japanese generations divide, and make Japanese people feckless, and our 3S policy
worked so well, that means
Sex, Screen (movies including music , TV and other entertainment), Sport. We made them addicted to 3S and made them forget about their identity and
not interested in their tradition and culture and politics. They were best tools for our intention."
I think music has pretty powerful effect on our mind directly, that is why they tend to use it as controling us.
and so, it is natural that such pop music is always American one.
This might sound too political to members of this forum, but this is historical truth.
and due to this, even playing Japanese traditional musical instrument was regarded as bad thing.
(*)
But even before this big turning point, our losing tradition was beginning.
That was Meiji Era when we abandoned our Samurai system and started westernization
as restoration of Imperial power in 1868. The biggest reason why we chose it was that we did not want to be colonized as lots of other colonized
countries by the West.
In order not to be invaded and colonized by the West, we had to be voluntarily westernized not only in modenization in all sytems like science
including military arsenal but also in cultures like music. We were made to believe modern werstern classical music like Mozart and Beethoven have
more artistic value than all Japanese traditional music.
Having said that, untill the WWII defeat, we had held much more traditional cultures compared to now.
"Japan Day by Day (Hardcover)"
by Edward S. Morse is a MUST-read to know the amazing cultures of old Japan.
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acryl1
Oud Addict
Posts: 30
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there's something I forgot to mention.
About pop music here in Japan, the situation is the same as in other countries like people discuss in this thread.
Traditional music is dissapearing faster and faster, and there are so many awful copies of American pop music.
I personally learned Japanese traditional music in my musical history, after reaching middle age.
Like many Japanese young men, I was hooked in western pop music when I was young and got interested in music. I was made to believe that all our
traditional music is too old, boring , out-of-date and worthless in school education and media.
It took so many years for me to recognize what I really like and have to learn.
(But I don't want you to misunderstand.
Even now I don't deny all the value of such western pop music.
Now I think that the reason why I was so attacted to rock , jazz, blues, was that I felt and liked the essence of non-Western music in them .
To me that was like a doorway to such as various kinds of traditional music .)
And then later I came to love oud and Arabic traditional music.
and I did believe that there is rigid universalities among all the traditional music in the world. and truly there was a link between Arabic music and
Japanese music in the ancient times.
I think modern western classical music is like a mutation evolution in musical history of human being. Of course that has evolved from its medieval
times music (which still had similarity with such "universal music " of the world , but it changed so much.
That was linked with industrial revolution, slave trade、etc. of the West.
and as danieletarab says,
| Quote: |
The positive thing is that there are always more and more people that are getting fed up with modern music (heavy drums, electronic, lots of sounds,
keyboards, overdrive guitars etc), and they are looking for something more authentical, something whose meaning stands in History.
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We have a same situation here. Yes, that is positive.
For example, Sanshin (Okinawan lute) and Tsugaru-shamisen (three string lute) are much more popular now and quite a few young people are trying it.
but still, such music style is more understandable from the viewpoint of western pop music , due to the pumping rhythm and easily acceptable melody
line , but other traditional music with essential qualities cannot be popular.
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
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| Quote: | Originally posted by acryl1I think modern western classical music is like a mutation evolution in musical history of human being. Of course
that has evolved from its medieval times music (which still had similarity with such "universal music " of the world , but it changed so much.
That was linked with industrial revolution, slave trade、etc. of the West. |
me2!
I am really sad to hear all those things about how American colonization has affected Japan. When will humans "wake up"?
Can you post some pics of traditional Japanese oud-type instruments and suggest some clips??? Does Japanese music have anything like MAQAM?
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acryl1
Oud Addict
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Our musical instrument ( and my specialty )is called "Biwa", and
it is said that biwa has same ancestor( barbat) as oud,
and as you watch this YouTube video,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfOA20OY1fk&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rl_GXQIzAUM&feature=related
I hope you will understand
this vocal melismatic style has some similarity with Persian music.
Like oud music, traditionally Biwa was always with vocal music. not as solo instrument.
Surprisingly, there is an Irish player of Biwa even though very very few Japanese care for Biwa... I think he has gained the essence of Biwa music.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dm9Sw4hhqYk
and another non-Japanese player
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywmCtZvibhY&feature=related
But it might not be so surprising, because it's a bit like me, as a Japanese, playing the oud...
Some people say biwa sounds more like Indian sitar, and
the tone does not sound like oud so much.
and we don't have maqam system but anyway we have different scales from western modern simple scale,major/minor . Some musicologist claim it comes
from ancinet Egypt and Arabic music later.
And about price, because there are ONE luthier of Satsuma Biwa and the other ONE for Gaku-Biwa, total only TWO in Japan now, they are all very
expensive.
the cheapest one costs you $5000.
and this kind of Biwa costs from $8000!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsrS2w6sq-4&feature=related
Oud's pricing seems much lower compared to this....
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
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I guess it is similar to the PIPA?
Are there microtones in japanese music - or is it based on diatonic and pentatonic scales?
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acryl1
Oud Addict
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Yes, Chinese Pipa is the relative of Japanese Biwa as you suspect it from their similar name. But Chinese Pipa is much newer instrument which
became the present shape and playing method in 1950's.
About Biwa, you can see its photo here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biwa
And yes, we have pentatonic scale and some more.
They are mainly
C, D, F, G, A, C
D, F, G, A, C, D
E, F, A, B, C, E
And of course we have micronotes between each note.
and especially, the E, F, A, B, C, E scale is said to be similar to
Phrigian or Spanish scales, all of wihich is taken for "queer" to the present western classical music theory.
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shareen
Oud Junkie
Posts: 218
Registered: 8-28-2007
Location: Upstate New York
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Darwinism and the death of classical Arab music
Hate to say it folks, but music, art, culture, etc, all over the world has been subjected to Darwinism...survival of the fittest. What happened to
traditional Japanese music, Chinese music? Indian music is retaining its traditionalism??? Puleeze...look at the music of Bollywood. I studied
Indian classical raga singing from the Kirana school in the 70's. All but dead now. By the fittest I mean, unfortunately, commercially fittest. I
think mass culture rules. That's just the way of the world. Too bad mass culture falls to the lowest common denominator of commercialiam. I always
laugh when I see rappers in other countries rapping in their own languages and dressing like and making the street gestures of American Ghetto Blacks,
like the guys I grew up with in High School. Makes me laugh, and cry at the same time. There will always be purists out there maintaining their
traditions. Its up to the conservatories to keep a country's classical music, what ever that country may be, alive.
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eyeland3
Oud Admirer
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hope
I would like to thank all the contributors to this discussion topic (which is really important). I would like to make several personal observations
about traditional culture and music in Syria. I spent in total almost 2 years there, and found many oud instrument makers as well as much
‘traditional’ music. It was not hard to find in the old part of town. There was plenty of popular music too, in fact it was everywhere, but that
is another story. The question is, will the traditional music we respect survive?
I am an archaeologist with an interest in very early periods, so my time scale can be measured in hundreds of years. Archaeologically speaking the
colonial period in Syria was very short. There is a period now when Syria is being woven into a larger international whole. I was of course bothered
by what I saw to be the decline of traditional culture. Things are changing quickly. However, I consoled myself with the fact that no one can be sure
how a culture changes. The assumption that western based popular music will replace everything might not hold in the coming decades. As an example,
Syria was for a time part of the Roman Empire, and several Emperors of Rome were Syrian (http://syria.vsdi.net/04.htm). Indeed Syria was far more ‘western’ then than now. Syria is today still distinctive and not part of ‘Rome’.
No one could have foreseen this result.
Keeping the traditional arts alive is essential now. This is a time of change, and some things can die out. Flint knapping really is a minority
pursuit, but then again some modern surgical tools are made using flint blades. I think that there is good reason to be cautiously optimistic about
traditional music. So many people from so many different parts of the world value it. After listening to more oud music I am convinced that maybe
the community should prepare for worldwide interest rather than decline. It is hard to be sure what will happen, but I know the kind of future I
would like to see...
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
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| Quote: | | Originally posted by eyeland3 After listening to more oud music I am convinced that maybe the community should prepare for worldwide
interest rather than decline. |
I participate on this forum and also the fretless guitar forum, and am amazed at how much more interest there is in ouds than fretless guitars ---
[but of of course I am not speaking about normal electric guitars].
Part of the reason why electric guitars are taking over is because they are so easy to play. Just a very very light touch and you have a MONSTER of a
sound. You really don't have to work at all hardly compared to acoustic instruments.
I think there will always continue to be a small audience for quality and traditional music --- but anyway, it has always been like this. Funny thing,
I was walking in the woods yesterday and was thinking about the nature of humanity and our world - and it struck me that although there are billions
and billions of us humans, in fact, in terms of high quality music - we are just a small village. Kind of cosy actually 
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eastmountain
Oud Lover
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the dynamic tension of musical evolution
Fascinating thread! Thanks to all for your insights and observations.
I have almost no knowledge of Arabic or oud music, being quite new to the instrument. But if I might draw an analogy to American musical forms,
please permit me.
American blues music, itself derived of African forms, has changed dramatically from its origins. The same is true with jazz and American folk music
forms. Often people lament over how it has changed from its source or how you can't find "authentic" music anymore. But I think evolution is the
natural state of music. "He not busy being born is busy dying," as Bob Dylan once sang. Sometimes the evolutionary branches are dead ends and
nothing comes of it. Sometimes people return to the roots of the tree and try to start again. It's all good.
The danger, I think, is trying to make music stand still. The western classical music idiom is like that somewhat, insisting on playing the same
pieces by the same composers with the same instruments in the same way. But to me, that is a kind of death. Mozart was the rock star of his day.
It's wonderful music, but exploring new styles does not have to mean the death of the old forms.
I was once talking to an old jazz trumpet player. He told me a friend of his was very focused on playing a particular style of jazz, to the exclusion
of all else. He told the trumpet player that he had "found his groove."
The trumpet player shook his head as he told me the story and said, "Man, the only difference between a groove and a grave is the shape of the
coffin."
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