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Tom Moran
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Seyir
I'm sure that this has been covered before, but can someone give me a brief, if at all possible, explanation of what is meant by "seyir". From what I
understand, each maqam as its own. What would bayati's seyir be, for example?
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Edward Powell
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yes this has been covered... but it is very important - so let's cover it again 
but be careful about asking about Bayati, because Turks and Arabs treat it quite differently. You can very easily get confused.
Seyir is simply the 'essential road map' of the makam. Makam is not just a scale... because it has a seyir.
for each makam you need to know:
1- what are the tetrachords
2- what is the dominant
3- what is the most important playing region -low-mid-or high
4- what is more important -tonic, dominant, or octave
5- what happens to the "unstable" notes as you change direction...
6- which notes do you develop first, 2nd, 3rd etc etc
7- what is the makam ending
The more EXTENDED SEYIR will give you ideas about small and big modulations.
Arabs treat Bayati somewhat like Turks play makam USSAK. But Turks play bayati with a more specific seyir which determines that the DOMINANT note (the
4th degree in this case) is the most important note.
Therefore Arabs will start a bayati taksim with the tonic... Turks will never do this - Turks will start Bayati taksim always with the 4th degree.
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adamgood
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For Beyati seyir, let's go to a composition. A sarki by Rahmi Bey:
http://www.adamgood.com/turkish_nota/piece.php?id=153&size=394
Everything up to the Coda sign will give you the seyir. Learn this melody and you'll know the seyir for Beyati
For an (intellectual) understanding of Beyati at the most basic level...which would be about my level you can at least know that:
1. The beginning starts around the dominant (Neva) written here as a "D" on the staff.
2. Notice in the 4th bar of the song, note the pitch Acem, written as "F"...it's very important pitch to Beyati so I kind of conclude for myself that
Neva and Acem are pitches that define Beyati in the beginning of the seyir.
3. Now notice the beginning of the 3rd line, he is showing another important trick beyati can and almost always will do, you see Eb and F#, this is
showing some hicaz from Neva. I usually hear this referred to as showing makam Karcigar. But don't show too much, you must quickly come back to F
natural which brings you to...
4. ...the beginning of the 4th line and finally the ending is somewhat like a typical Ussak ending. The karar is the A half note sitting above where
"(SAZ)" is written.
and voila, there's Beyati !
All of the sarkis show the seyir, now that you know the above info, check out some other sarkis.
adam
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Tom Moran
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Thanks for your replies!
OK, my first question...
for each makam you need to know:
3- what is the most important playing region -low-mid-or high
4- what is more important -tonic, dominant, or octave
5- what happens to the "unstable" notes as you change direction...
6- which notes do you develop first, 2nd, 3rd etc etc
Is there an on-line source for this type of information?
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Edward Powell
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it is interesting, that we all (MYSELF INCLUDED, even back 20 years ago when I first started to study ragas) want immediately to have a big list which
will give us all of this information detailing a new theory system we have encounters.
having such a list gives us the feeling like we know it - and have the situation under control. However, I would suggest resisting the temptation to
worry about immediately getting this big list. Finally it will not have too much value aside from a very good reference.
of course, it IS (!) valuable and very important to accummulate theoretical reference material - this will help you learn... but it is really
enough just to take ONE makam and really learn it. Focus on that, then move on to the next.
Learn 5 makams fully:
-Bayati
-Huseini
-Rast
-Segah
-Hicaz
...then after that it all flows easily and makes total sense.
[now I better get busy and practice what I am preaching!!! ) ]
...Adam has suggested a great way to learn Bayati.
ps- maybe one solution could be to make a separate thread for each makam and we could all contribute bits of information which would finally identify
the seyir and other characteristics of each makam?
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Tom Moran
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Here's my problem: In learning the maqams, I could be learning them incorrectly if I don't know what the seyir is. Is it a certain sequence of notes?
Sorry if I'm getting things out of order, but I'm learning in a vacuum.
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Edward Powell
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Seyir: I don't know the origins of this concept. I think that the music existed first, and then they made the theory, and then of course the theory
influenced the music.
Seyir is not a sequence of notes, but rather, a sequence of focal centers. for example - Turkish Bayati:
1. you enter on NEVA, and you play primarily in the upper tetrachord which is buselik pentachord from NEVA. Finish your first paragraph on NEVA.
2. next, stay in the bus.pentachord, and shift your focus to ACEM note.
3. next, focus on the octave and play mostly in ussak (bayati) tetrachord from the octave.
4. finally - descend down thru buselik and then down to the lower ussak (bayati) tetrachord and final stop on the tonic.
This is a basic form of Bayati.
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eliot
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No time for a full answer, but I respectfully disagree with Edward that seyir is "not a sequence of notes," at least as a general principle. In some
makams the seyir could be thought of as a sequence of focal centers. For other makams, there is a very specific sequence of pitch collections that
must happen in order - meaning, you play around with 5 specific pitches, then with play around with another 5 pitches. Makams Gülizar and Dugah are
examples of this.
However, seyir is also used to talk about the melodic contour of specific pieces of music. Okan Murat Öztürk's book on zeybek repertoire is an
excellent example with wonderful, barebones transcriptions of the seyir of local repertoires, alongside complex fully ornamented transcriptions.
Seyir is huge - but it is huge and approachable. It's basically the science of how to make melodies that make sense.
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katakofka
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Hi Tom
In a simple way the seyir is the melodic progression in makaams. As every makam has its tonic giving the makam its identity, the melodic progression
should turn around the tonic and come back to it. In turkish music they have certain rules to which I am not familiar.
Take the bayati from the D degree: the scale, D, E 1/4, F, G, A, B1/2, C, D. When you play D, E 1/4, F, G, F, E 1/4 and D you generate the bayati
makaam, the essence of it.
When playing, C, D, E 1/4, F, G, F, E1/4, D, C you are essentially playing the Rast Makam on C since the tonic is C in here and not D. Note that the
Bayati on D and Rast on C have similar scale but the tonic is giving the signature of the makam.
Listening to recordings of bayati on D and Rast on C would be a good help to differentiate between both as each one generate its own mood.
Hope this is helpful
Best
Souheil
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Tom Moran
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Thanks again. This is one of those "everything you know is wrong" moments. I wish I had known this for the last couple of months. Again, I wish there
was an on-line source for this information. Apparently what I thought was making progress has been for naught.
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katakofka
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Some links talking about seyir
http://www.tmdk.itu.edu.tr/c.pdf
http://www.turkishmusicportal.org/page.php?id=47&lang2=en
http://www.oud.eclipse.co.uk/makamlar.html
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Tom Moran
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Souheil, thanks. If one would stick to the notes of a given maqam, and keep the melody revolving around the tonic, the seyir would be correct?
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katakofka
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I guess...As I mentioned the concept of seyir is not defined in Arabic music. What is defined are the makams and you are free to generate your own
seyir, your own melodic progression. Thinking of Jazz music do we study the melodic progression? I guess no.
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katakofka
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Just as examples
Here is Farid el atrash playing a taksim on bayati on D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_WrixwcD9M&feature=related
(Farid did not stick on bayati in that taksim but at the end he finished on bayati D).
Note the melodic progression as compared to
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90IM6mu8Two
Both are playing taksim on bayaati but each one has his own melodic progression. Notice the come back to D in both taksims after each melodic
progression.
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Edward Powell
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| Quote: | Originally posted by eliot
No time for a full answer, but I respectfully disagree with Edward that seyir is "not a sequence of notes," at least as a general principle. In some
makams the seyir could be thought of as a sequence of focal centers. For other makams, there is a very specific sequence of pitch collections that
must happen in order - meaning, you play around with 5 specific pitches, then with play around with another 5 pitches. Makams Gülizar and Dugah are
examples of this.
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Yes, I agree exactly! The confusion comes because I thought he meant a SEQUENCE OF <B>INDIVIDUAL</B> NOTES. But yes, if you think as
Elliot describes as playing around 5 notes or so, then another 5 notes etc... this is what I meant as a "focal center". One pentachord at a time - but
also knowing which individual note at that moment should have the strongest place.
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Edward Powell
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Tom Moran
Souheil, thanks. If one would stick to the notes of a given maqam, and keep the melody revolving around the tonic, the seyir would be correct?
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first you need to decide if you want to play turkish or arab makam. At one time they were much more similar - when the ottomans had a very strong grip
on things... but now the two have become separate schools.
arabs seems to more of less have lost the complex seyir concept, but if you want to play turkish makam - seyir is essential.
Basically however thinking in terms of following makam notes and revolving around the tonic. This is not seyir.
What the turkish system says is that each makam has as the most important note either the tonic, the dominant, or the octave.
Take for example the difference between USSAK and BAYATI. These two makams are very similar in notes and scale - but the main difference is that the
most important note in USSAK is the tonic - so you play a lot around the tonic and the lower notes.
But in Bayati, the dominant is the most important note, so in turkish bayati, YOU DO NOT PLAY VERY MUCH AT ALL AROUND THE TONIC. Instead the whole
melody revolves around the dominant, which is the 4th degree (neva). Only finally when you conclude you will return to the tonic.
Another two similar makams are huseini and muhayyer. Huseini's most important note is the DOMINANT (the fifth degree), and Muhayyer's most important
note is the OCTAVE! But both these makams have very similar notes and both finally conclude finishing on the tonic.
PS - finally i will just add something that is my opinion. and that is that you don't need to learn the complex seyir to play arab style, but if you
learn the turkish seyir, then go ahead and play in arab style - i think that you will catch a better makam feeling this way. Just my opinion.
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Tom Moran
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Thanks again for all the information. My focus HAS been on the Arabic style. OK, I'm not as bad off as I thought!
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Edward Powell
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It seems with Arab style they are not bothing at all with seyir. At the Arab Oud House, I heard that they don't even teach maqam hardly.
You are probably best off trying to copy taksims and stuff, and get the thing by feeling.
--but I will be honest with you that before I began to get in touch with the turkish theory system, I was just totally absolutely lost trying to learn
arab oud. I didn't grow up in that culture so I don't have it in my bones. I need intellectual theory. Learning the turkish system has helped my arab
playing ENORMOUSLY! The point is that 100 years ago the two systems were one, more of less. But afterwards, they went their own separate ways.
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Tom Moran
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My ipods jammed with Arabic music, trying to soak in as much as I can while at work and in the shop, hoping it will rub off when I sit down to play.
I've been fairly pleased at how things have been going, but this seyir thing threw me for a loop.
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katakofka
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Tom Moran
I've been fairly pleased at how things have been going, but this seyir thing threw me for a loop. |
Not only you, it took me a while to get it.
In arabic music you see many modulation (changes in makams) in the melodic progression as seen the link posted above for Farid's video.
Other examples from an instrument similar to the banjo, the buzuk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNF7QNHSi4c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajsiQUVvO7M
hope the annotation are helpful
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Edward Powell
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Tom Moran
My ipods jammed with Arabic music, trying to soak in as much as I can while at work and in the shop, hoping it will rub off when I sit down to play.
I've been fairly pleased at how things have been going, but this seyir thing threw me for a loop. |
Are you familiar with the "koma system" and how notes shift when the melody changes direction?
This happens much more in Turkish playing but it DOES still happen in Arabic, however nobody really mentions this.
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katakofka
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Can anyone point out the difference between ussak and bayaati please?
As described the difference is one is ascendant the other is in both directions but I am unable to see the difference.
http://www.oud.eclipse.co.uk/ussak.html
http://www.oud.eclipse.co.uk/bayatiturkish.html
What do you classify this song, bayaati or ussak?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9EfJwpaJP4
Any concrete audio examples would be of great help
thanks
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Edward Powell
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USSAK and BAYATI have the same notes, basically.
-ussak tetrachord from dugah
-buselik pentachord from neva
-the dominant is the same in both makams (neva)
The main difference, is that in USSAK the TONIC is the most important note - but in BAYATI the DOMINANT is the most important note.
Makams which have the tonic as the most important note are ASCENDING MAKAMS.
Makams which have the dominant as the most important note are ASCENDING/DESCENDING MAKAMS.
Makams which have the octave as the most important note are DESCENDING MAKAMS.
So one BIG difference is that USSAK enters with the TONIC - and then you MUST PLAY NOTES BELOW THE TONIC [ RAST PENTACHORD ON YEGAH -low sol- to be
exact].
BAYATI, on the other hand enters with the DOMINANT (sol), and you more or less treat the dominant like a tonic - and in this way of looking at it you
treat it just like USSAK except NEVA is like the tonic - what I mean is that you play BELOW the dominant making a RAST PENTACHORD FROM Do (rast note).
But in BAYATI you will never play any notes lower than RAST NOTE (Do).
There are more differences, but I would say that this is the main difference.
From where I left off - you continue to develop the makam, and with both you finish finally on the tonic.
You see, in USSAK mostly you are hanging around the TONIC below and above it.
In BAYATI mostly you are hanging around the DOMINANT below and above it. --but never play below the tonic's leading tone (Do).
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Edward Powell
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To me this sounds more like USSAK than BAYATI because it seems to focus around the tonic rather than the dominant... however, true makams are found
only in TURK SENAT MUZIKISI (Art Music), and this piece is a folk song. The baglama is a give-away. Turkish folk music has a slightly different system
- very similar to makam, but different. There is another name for these, and the "equivalent" of ussak, hicaz, bayati, rast etc have different
names.
Probably Adam or Eliot can elaborate on this.
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Tom Moran
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Souheil, the annotations are very helpful.
Edward, yes, at least I'm aware of the "koma" system. Implementation is on the back burner for now.
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