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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Peyman
| Quote: | | Also, at the moment there is basically almost no oud in Iran (tiny bit of barbat and that's about it I am presuming) -- they have tar and setar.
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You shouldn't confuse folk music with classical music (art music). In the East, they play robabs, sarood (the bowed type) etc. Ostad Nariman, one of
the first people to become a dedicated oud player is from Mashhad, which is in Khorasan area to the East.
They play a lot of oud in Iran. It's present in almost all ensembles along side the robab (the Persian type) to fill in for the bass.
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Really! Thanks for this important info 
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Reda Aouad
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Edward Powell
...perhaps this Oud Federation can have strong "allies" in places like California and France that are obviously not true "oudland states" but
nevertheless host a significant appriciation and practice of the art? |
I think they should be colonies 
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Edward Powell
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Colonies would be another catagorie - - - like perhaps Sudan where the oud was introduced and has begun displacing the older established stringed
instrument? ...like the guitar is now displacing the oud in Egypt and Turkey for example ??
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Butrous
Oud Maniac
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Is the oud important in the current post Soviet political state called Armenia? If not, why are there important historical Armenian oud makers from
Turkey, Syria, and Lebanon? Why are historical and current Armenian musicians so active in music making and recording outside of what is called
Armenia.
I would hold off on adding the other Islamic African counties previously mentioned for now until you receive more supporting evidence.
In the mean time you can view interesting singing Somali oud players on youtube.com.
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adamgood
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Edward,
I would highly recommend including Macedonia (FYROM) on the map:
"Chalgija"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%8Calgija
music was sung and played on clarinet, violin, kanun, ud, daire typically by Ethnic Turks. Actually this was my introduction to Turkish music in a
way.
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adamgood
Oud Junkie
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For that matter Albania is no stranger to ud but it's a bit more rare I believe.
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maran
Oud Junkie
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Edward Powell
| Quote: | Originally posted by Peyman
You can paint Azerbaijan and Armenia green too. They sometimes use the oud in their ensembles. |
Armenia for sure.... but Azer???? Is not oud MUCH MUCH more prominent in Armenia. I have been under the impression that there is basically no oud
in Azer..... or should it get SATELITE STATUS ) ? |
i'm not sure i would include armenia as part of oudistan. i think it would more properly belong to keyboardistan.
jokes aside i wouldn't include it with greece and turkey, if anything i would put it with iran/azerbaijan. the traditional ensembles play tar,
qyamancha, etc. and not ud, kemence. i say if anything though because in fact the "experts"/culture police there will tell you that there is no
makam/mugham in "real" armenian music (whatever that is - supposedly music composed in st. petersburg by soviet-trained composers?). and this is why
the kanun they play there can only play equal-tempered whole and half-tones (which makes it completely worthless as far as i am concerned). i play the
kanun but i would never play a kanun like that.
i guess the music armenians played before the invention of the equal-tempered scale, as well as the church hymns which are in huzzam, segah, hicaz,
rast, etc are not real armenian music.
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Edward Powell
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well - - - some contraversy over Armenia.
To be honest, all I know about Armenian music is Richard Hagopian and who is that other guy who made the CD "An Armenian in America"?? ...and then
there is the famous duduk player who's name I can't pronounce...
So it seems there are some Armenian/Americans playing oud, but what about Armenians in Armenia??
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Edward Powell
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Libya is another place I never heard of any oudis from..... is there any music in Libya?
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Ararat66
Oud Junkie
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Well Armenia is Hayastan in Armenia, Udi Hrant was an Ottoman Armenian (or however you would describe an ethic Armenian in Istanbul!!!).
Leon
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Butrous
Oud Maniac
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The oud is taught as a folk instrument at the Yerevan Komitas State Conservatory.
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bpcNORD
Oud Lover
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Here's a list of "famous" oud players:
In Canada
Dikran Richard Sarookanian (of Armenian descent)
Gordon Grdina
Sean Goharzadeh
Filis Ann Ozkurdum
In Greece:
Tsiamoulis Christos
Michalis Tsouganakis
Periklis Tsoukalas
Alekos K. Vretos [4]
Haig Yazdjian (Armenian descent)
Giorgos Alevizos [5]
Nikos Saragoudas
Nikos Dimitriadis
Vasilis Kasouras
In Egypt:
Riyad al-Sunbati
Hazem Shaheen (1978-)
Farid Al Attrach (1915-1974)
Mohammed Abdel Wahab (1907-1991)
Mohamed El Asabgi (1892-1966)
Sayed Darwish (1892-1923)
Sheikh Imam (1918-1995)
In Iran:
Hossein Behroozinia (1962-)
Arsalan Kamkar (1960-)
Mansour Nariman (1938-)
Mohammad Delnavazi (1954-)
Mohammad Firoozi (1957-)
Ahad Goharzadeh (1958-?)
Jamal Jahanshad (1948-)
Yousef Kamoosi (1902-1987)
Mohammad Khansarian (1948-)
Hasan Manoochehri (1934-)
Shahram Mirjalali (1959-)
Akbar Mohseni (1911-1995)
Abdulvahab Shahidi (1921-)
Nasrollah Zarrinpanjeh (1906-1982)
In Iraq:
Salman Shukur
Rahim Al Haj
Jamil Bashir
Munir Bashir (Iraq/Hungary)
Ahmed Mukhtar (Iraq/London)
Naseer Shamma
Ali Alemaam
Ghanim Haddad
Asim Al-Chalabi (Iraq/Austria)
Salim Al-Nur (Iraq/Israel)
Fawzy Al-Aiedy (Iraq/France)
Mohammed Saleh Lelo (Iraq/Qatar)
Salim Abd Al-Karim
Ali Hassan
Ali al-Imam
Ruhi Al-Kamash
In Kuwait:
Ibrahim Tami (Kuwait)
Bader Hamdan (Kuwait)
Hamad Bo Resli (Kuwait)
Jarah Al Hadari (Kuwait)
Fozi Al Lenqawi (Kuwait)
Salman Al Ammari (Kuwait)
Salah Hamad Khalifah (Kuwait)
Yousef Al Motref (Kuwait)
In Lebanon:
Wadih el Safi
Rabih Abou-Khalil
Marcel Khalife
Charbel Rouhana
Bassem Rizk
Fouad Harraka (Lebanon/Australia)
George Abyad (Lebanon/Syria)
Abdul Salam Kheir
Mazen Fouad Salha
Ziad El Ahmadie
In Morocco:
Tarik Banzi
Ahmed El Bidaoui
Said Chraybi
Driss El Maloumi
Armand Sabach
In Palestine:
Le trio Joubran
Simon Shaheen
Ahmad Al-Khatib
Issa Boulos [6]
Nizar Rohana
Samer Totah [7]
Adel Salameh
Kamilya Jubran
Haytham Safia (Palestine/Netherlands)
In Saudi Arabia:
Al-sharif Mohyi-aldain bin ali haidar pacha(Hejaz/Saudi Arabia)
Mohammed ali Al-Sindi
Tariq Abdul-Hakeem
Omar Kadars
Fawzi Mahsoon
Abadi al-Johar
Talal Maddah
Ghazi Ali
Bashir Shannan
Khalid Abdulrahman
In Somalia:
Hudaydi
Omar Dhuule
Hanuuniye
In Sudan:
Mustafa Said Ahmed (Sudan)
Mohamed Al Amin (Sudan)
In Syria:
Alsiadi [8] (Syria/USA)
Muhammad Qadri Dalal
Abolrahman Jabakjl
Omar Naqishbandi
Afif Taian
In Tunisia:
Anouar Brahem
Amine-Hamza M'RAIHI
Dhafer Youssef
Ali Es-Sriti
Khmaies Tarnen
In Turkey:
Ismail Fencioglu
Udi Yorgo Bacanos (1900-1977, also known as Georgios Mpatzanos) (ethnic Greek)
Münir Nurettin Beken
Necati Çelik
Mısır'lı İbrahim Efendi (1872-1933)
Samim Karaca
Udi Hrant Kenkulian (1901-1978) (ethnic Armenian)
Udi Bogos Kireciyan (ethnic Armenian)
Ûdi Nevres Bey (1873-1937)
Coşkun Sabah
Cinuçen Tanrıkorur (1938-2000)
Serif Muhiddin Targan (1892-1967)
İlyas Tetik
Yurdal Tokcan
Mutlu Torun
Gülçin Yahya
In Yemen:
Abu Baker Salem
Ali Alanisi
Ahmed Fathy
Ali Einaba
Alshameeri
Fasel Alawei
Fuad Alkibsy
Najiba Abdullah
Jamil Ghanim (Jemen/Baghdad)
In United Kingdom
Robin Williamson (1943-)
In United States
Daron Malakian (Armenian)
Ahmed Abdul-Malik (United States/Sudan)
Saadoun Al-Bayati [9] (United States/Iraq)
Hamza El Din (Egypt/Sudan/United States)
Sandy Bull (United States)
Rachid Halihal [10] (United States/Morocco)
Naji Hilal [11] (United States/Lebanon)
Naser Musa [12] (Palestine/Lebanon)
Levent Firat (born in Turkey) [13]
David Lindley (United States) [14]
Gayle Ellett (United States) [15]
Basil Samara (United States/Lebanon)
Scott Wilson (United States)
Mavrothi T. Kontanis (United States/Greece [16]
Majed Abu Ajameyeh (born in Palestine)
of Armenian descent:
John Berberian
Richard Hagopian
Roupen Altiparmakian (United States/Greece) (born in Adana, Turkey)
John Bilezikjian
Ara Dinkjian
Charles "Chick" Ganimian
Marty Kentigian
Haig Manoukian
Marko Melkon (Melkon Alemsharian) (born in Izmir, Turkey)
George Mgrdichian
Harry Minassian
Antranig Kzirian [17]
Others:
Ahmad Firdaus Baragbah (Jambi/Indonesia)
Zulkarnain Yusof (Johor/Malaysia)
Samir Zaki (Jordan)
Ali Bin Rogha (United Arab Emirates)
Joseph Tawadros (Australia)
George Farah
I think the Armenians are well represented in Oudland!
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maran
Oud Junkie
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yes and not one of them ever lived in armenia. we are talking about armenia as a country, are we not?
btw daron malakian plays ud!? i would like to see that one. why not put all of our names on that list.
seriously if anyone knows him can you tell him to upload some of his tracks, a taksim maybe?
they are missing one name by the way, a very good one: jack baghsarian. i'm going to upload some tracks when i get home.
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eliot
Oud Junkie
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The absence of Kenya and Malaysia are a major oversight... there is a huge and thriving oud culture in Kenya, and we used to have a couple Malaysian
oud players and one Malaysian oud maker on this board (who made carved, not staved instruments!), who indicated there is a scene happening there, with
a unique repertoire.
I'm with Maran. I don't know of any Armenian oud players living in Armenia (now or historically), and the "classic" Armenian oud culture was specific
to Armenians living in urban areas of Western Anatolia and Antep (in the East). Oud was not a prominent folk instrument, AFAIK, in Eastern Anatolian
Armenian villages. It is possible that some of the Yezidi Kurdish minority living in Armenia plays oud...
Is Crete colored in? I don't remember Crete having much of an oud culture.
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Jonathan
Oud Junkie
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Oh, come on! If there are no oud players in Armenia, how do you explain oud builders in Armenia?
Examples: Sarkis Chirikdjian, based in Yerevan.
Bedros Kazakian, also based in Yerevan
Stepan Payaslyan, based in Yerevan, recently deceased (2007)
Is the oud as prominent in Eastern Armenia as it is in Western Anatolia? Probably not, but to state that the oud is not a part of that culture is
absurd.
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eliot
Oud Junkie
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Jonathan, do you know of examples of oud players currently living and playing in Armenia? I'd be very interested to hear what music they're creating.
When watching Yerevan TV on satellite when I was in Turkey, I saw a ton of accordions and button accordions, and plenty of evidence of balalaikas but
not a single oud. An Istanbul-Armenian friend of mine did doctoral field research in Yerevan in search of Armenian oud culture and came back empty
handed. I think he "found" Sarkis, but not much else. Why so underground?
I have also never come across any historical mention of oud in Eastern Anatolian Armenian villages; rather, it was played by Armenians in
urban musics, most notably in Antep, to a lesser extent in Erzurum (1-2 fasil orchestras).
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
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kenya?
malaysia?
PLEASE SEND CLIP LINKS! THIS IS VERY INTERESTING!
crete?
THIS IS QUESTIONABLE. . .
armenia?
GENOCIDE BRAIN DRAIN? COULD IT BE THAT THERE USED TO BE AN OUD CULTURE THERE AND THAT IN THE LAST 80 YEARS OR SO ARMENIA HAS REJECTED "TURKISH" THINGS
AND PERHAPS MANY TALENTED ARTISTS LEFT? WHY THEN DID SO MANY ARMENIAN EX-PATS CHOOSE THE OUD AS THEIR INSTRUMENT?
azeri?
mauritania?
I GUESS THESE ARE OUT?
below SUDAN, what specific countries should be included - and is there documentation?
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maran
Oud Junkie
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| Quote: | Originally posted by eliot
Jonathan, do you know of examples of oud players currently living and playing in Armenia? I'd be very interested to hear what music they're creating.
When watching Yerevan TV on satellite when I was in Turkey, I saw a ton of accordions and button accordions, and plenty of evidence of balalaikas but
not a single oud. An Istanbul-Armenian friend of mine did doctoral field research in Yerevan in search of Armenian oud culture and came back empty
handed. I think he "found" Sarkis, but not much else. Why so underground?
I have also never come across any historical mention of oud in Eastern Anatolian Armenian villages; rather, it was played by Armenians in
urban musics, most notably in Antep, to a lesser extent in Erzurum (1-2 fasil orchestras). |
Eliot that was interesting to me (esp. fasil orchestras in Erzerum), where did you get that information from? btw I think Richard H.'s family was
from there. I'm sure in somewhere like Kayseri they had it too.
| Quote: | Originally posted by Jonathan
Oh, come on! If there are no oud players in Armenia, how do you explain oud builders in Armenia?
Examples: Sarkis Chirikdjian, based in Yerevan.
Bedros Kazakian, also based in Yerevan
Stepan Payaslyan, based in Yerevan, recently deceased (2007)
Is the oud as prominent in Eastern Armenia as it is in Western Anatolia? Probably not, but to state that the oud is not a part of that culture is
absurd. |
i wouldn't be surprised if these guys subsist on diasporans who visit the "homeland" thinking that people play ud there, because they themselves are
of anatolian extraction and therefore think of the ud as an armenian instrument. anyway there is a lot more to be said on this topic but this
probably isn't the right place for it. the bottom line is i think we make the mistake of thinking we necessarily have something in common with other
people just because we call ourselves the same thing. the history is so complex and people are so spread out that it's impossible to find something
that stays constant over space and time. so i just think there is whatever exists at any given place and time and you can try to understand why it is
that way based on information about the context (even the makams have changed, some have fallen out of use and some have even changed entirely from
just 100 years ago). me for example i think the topic of music and istanbul is interesting because of the confluence of cultures that existed there
over the centuries, but i don't think this tells me anything about armenians in van for example, and today that multi-ethnic society is basically
gone. naturally i like to know about the armenians who made their mark (just like mavrothis is probably interested in the greeks, walter feldman is
interested in jews, etc.). isn't it interesting that bimen sen, who became one of the great composers in turkish classical music, was discovered as a
child singing in an armenian church in bursa by haci arif bey, who then brought him to istanbul. when i listen to some of his şarkı's i can
almost hear the armenian hymns. this is not in order to say "look what armenians contributed to the turkish culture!", but rather to see that we have
something in common with people that are supposed to be different from us. i like the fact that because i have studied turkish classical music
somewhat, now when i listen to hymns sung in church i can recognize the makam it is being sung in. i would have never thought to pay attention to
something like that before (unless maybe i had been exposed to the octoechos system or something). but the point is, other people have created their
music from the same set of these beautiful modes, which means: we do not live in a vacuum. the one time i went to armenia they had a festival called
"meg azk, meg mshaguyt" going on - "one nation, one culture". at the time i thought, nice idea but this has no historical basis whatsoever. if you
think about it armenians in armenia today are very different from the rest of us because they live in a nearly mono-ethnic, mono-linguistic, and
mono-religious society, and that is totally different from the way armenians lived for the vast majority their history.
anyway i said i was going to put up a clip of jack baghsarian, who was not on that list. this is from one of those belly dance LPs that was recorded
here in the US. he has a nice solo around the 0:51 mark. unfortunately the liner notes don't indicate the personnel but the clarinet player is
supposed to be greek and is fantastic. does anyone recognize him from his playing?
http://www.box.net/shared/pnxjy5ftkq
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DaveH
Oud Junkie
Posts: 526
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Good morning from the latest oud colony (or Londonistan, as the Bangladeshis call it).
I agree the youtube criterion isn't really valid, but even so...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6kP2xt-1aw
I've been looking for a reasonably priced recording of Zein L'Abdin for a long time - anyone with any idea, please tell me. So that takes care of
Kenya (Mombassa). It's definitely widespread on the Tanzanian coast (well Zanzibar mainly, but the oud definitely exists in Dar, Kilwa etc). None for
mozambique yet, but, as I say, I've seen it.
But given how central trade and migration were to the middle east in history, you're going to find the oud everywhere (don't forget Malaysia!), even
if it's not so common any more.
In this case, rather than getting too caught up in maps, maybe it's better to refer to it as an "Empire of the Mind", the phrase Michael Axworthy uses
as the title of a recent book on Iran. I think it applies very well to our Oudistan.
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DaveH
Oud Junkie
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Just to add to the Zein l'Abdin post:
http://www.busaramusic.org/database/artists.php?whereartistlike=Zei...
I heard one of his recordings once (the Swahili songbook) and have been looking for an affordable copy ever since. Any tips gratefully appreciated. He
has a fantastic style.
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DaveH
Oud Junkie
Posts: 526
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Location: Birmingham, UK
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Maran, what a fantastic post. I hadn't read it before I made those last two. What you say about Armenians applies to us all (there is, for example, a
really, really brain-dead debate going on in the UK at the moment about how we need to be clearer on what it means to be British). This is sort of
what I had in mind when I used the phrase "Empire of the Mind".
Kudos to you!
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
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Ok Folks...
here is the second version.
any quiries?
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Ararat66
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1025
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Location: Portsmouth, UK
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Mood: mellow yellow
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Hi Maran
Thats a wicked solo
Leon
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Butrous
Oud Maniac
Posts: 60
Registered: 12-23-2006
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A more systematic approach might produce different coloration of your chart. It will be impossible to obtain empirical evidence, none the less it
would be interesting to speculate on the following for each country on your map:
1. How many ouds exist per capita?
2. How many ouds exist per household?
3. How many active oud makers exist per one million citizens.
4. How many ouds are exported per year?
5. How many ouds are imported per year?
6. How many recordings were made in the last 25 years which feature the oud as a dominant instrument in a solo performance or in a group with less
than 6 members?
7. How many instrument stores exist that sell a range of quality ouds?
8. How many performers sing while playing the oud?
9. How many composers use the oud as their primary instrument?
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eliot
Oud Junkie
Posts: 252
Registered: 1-5-2005
Location: The Gorges
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Mood: Aksak
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Butrous
A more systematic approach might produce different coloration of your chart. It will be impossible to obtain empirical evidence, none the less it
would be interesting to speculate on the following for each country on your map:
How many ouds exist per capita?
How many ouds exist per household?
How many active oud makers exist per one million citizens.
How many ouds are exported per year?
How many ouds are imported per year?
How many recordings were made in the last 25 years which feature the oud as a dominant instrument in a solo performance or in a group with less than 6
members?
How many instrument stores exist that sell a range of quality ouds?
How many performers sing while playing the oud?
How many composers use the oud as their primary instrument? |
We should petition the UN, or perhaps the CIA (who manages the "CIA world factbook") to insist that these statistics are included alongside those less
important numbers like GDP, infant mortality rates, etc.
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