| Pages:
1
2
3
..
5 |
Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
Registered: 1-20-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: g'oud
|
|
ORIENTAL MUSIC NOTATION with Finale?
Hi Friends,
I am writing some music with my FINALE program but I do not have the oriental fonts, or the "quarter-notes" installed in my program...
Does anyone out there have some experience with this??
I need help...
thanks!!
|
|
|
katakofka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 811
Registered: 1-24-2008
Location: Cleveland
Member Is Offline
Mood: Gypsy
|
|
Ed
I tried a lot with Finale with no sucess, It seems the program does not support oriental notation. Mayble I am wrong but I recently switched to
Sibellius also Myriad has a nice program that allows you to write turkish and arabic notation
|
|
|
Reda Aouad
Oud Junkie
Posts: 553
Registered: 1-2-2009
Location: Lebanon
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Ed you're touching on a problem that has been a real headache to me!
You can write quarter notes in Finale.. but this creates a problem.. you will not be able to play it back correctly..
What I mean is that the music sheet looks perfect and I would definitely recommend doing this.. much better than Sibelius.. but when you play it.. the
DO natural will sound DO.. DO1/4# will sound DO#.. DO# will sound RE.. DO3/4# will sound RE#.. and RE will sound MI.. this is because the MIDI
synthesizer doesn't accommodate for microtones and understands only 1/2 notes.. then you quarter will be a half.. and your full note will be 2 notes..
so the intervals will be redefined.. and that's what you technically need to do in Finale to write oriental music sheets.. redefine the intervals..
I've tried Sibelius but it doesn't have the Arabic quarter tone character.. it has only the Turkish ones.. like the inverse flat sign (a mirrored
'b').. but it plays back correctly..
So if you still want to do what you want to do in Finale.. tell me so I can tell you how to do it..
|
|
|
Reda Aouad
Oud Junkie
Posts: 553
Registered: 1-2-2009
Location: Lebanon
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I forgot to mention.. I searched for that a lot.. and it's a messy configuration to do in Finale.. but in the end it works.. you can even have key
signatures with microtones in them.. to some extent.. a feature which is also not available in Sibelius..
And I also spent too much time trying to change the synthesizer for Finale and create pitch bends for quarter tones and a lot of different things..
but nothing worked for playing back correctly in Finale..
|
|
|
Reda Aouad
Oud Junkie
Posts: 553
Registered: 1-2-2009
Location: Lebanon
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by katakofka
Ed
I tried a lot with Finale with no sucess, It seems the program does not support oriental notation. Mayble I am wrong but I recently switched to
Sibellius also Myriad has a nice program that allows you to write turkish and arabic notation |
Souheil.. can you have key signatures with microtones in Myriad? and does it support the Arabic microtones accidentals?
|
|
|
Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
Registered: 1-20-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: g'oud
|
|
Well that's great. It is not too important to have the play back because I am recording the tunes just playing them... that is more correct anyway...
but I NEED to oriental notation - and the only program I have in finale. . .
So if you can drop me a few pointers regarding HOW to swing it - that would be GREAT ! 
|
|
|
katakofka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 811
Registered: 1-24-2008
Location: Cleveland
Member Is Offline
Mood: Gypsy
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by Reda Aouad
| Quote: | Originally posted by katakofka
Ed
I tried a lot with Finale with no sucess, It seems the program does not support oriental notation. Mayble I am wrong but I recently switched to
Sibellius also Myriad has a nice program that allows you to write turkish and arabic notation |
Souheil.. can you have key signatures with microtones in Myriad? and does it support the Arabic microtones accidentals? |
I guess yes. I played with the program I while ago there is a demo version that you can download. My guess is that Myriad is the best for oriental
notations.
http://www.myriad-online.com/en/products/melody.htm
but I am sticking on Finale since I rarely do the playback
|
|
|
oudtab
Oud Maniac
Posts: 85
Registered: 3-17-2009
Location: France
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Hello Edward,
I have tried 3 softwares :
- TablEdit V2.65 (http://www.tabledit.com) : you can see examples on my website http://sites.google.com/site/oudguitare/lestablatures/listetabs and http://sites.google.com/site/oudguitare/lestablatures/tabledit
- Lylipond (freeware) : http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.11/Documentation/user/lilypond/Writing-p... and http://lilypond.org
Writing with Lylipond is a bit difficult, but it works very well and it's free.
- Sibelius : CTRL+ALT+K to have the notation symbols menu then F12 to have the quarter tones symbols.
Try to download the demo version ( http://www.sibelius.com/cgi-bin/download/get.pl?com=sh∏=sibde... ), then write your music with it and save your scores by printing with pdfcreator.
Michaël
|
|
|
Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
Registered: 1-20-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: g'oud
|
|
wow, thanks... gee seems like a lot of options available. Of course I would rather go with a free option, but I have had unpleasant experiences
always with trail versions.....
Still I wonder what would be the easiest way to go - since I already have a great working full version of finale - and know well how to use it (except
for the coma notes...)
thanks!
|
|
|
Reda Aouad
Oud Junkie
Posts: 553
Registered: 1-2-2009
Location: Lebanon
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Edward,
First of all.. download the following font
- For Windows/Linux: http://pagespro-orange.fr/christian.texier/mididesi/free/media/temp...
- For Mac: http://pagespro-orange.fr/christian.texier/mididesi/free/media/temp...
In case of Windows.. unzip the file then right-click on "tempera.ttf" and choose install.. this will install the font into the fonts directory in your
operating system.. if you're having trouble with that tell me I'll help you..
Then this is what you will have to do in Finale to have the Arabic quarter accidentals:
- Go to "Document->Document Options"
- Choose "Fonts" in the left pane
- In the "Notation" drop-down box (the third one from top) choose "Accidentals" if it is not already selected
- Click "Set Font" next to it and choose "Tempera"
- Then click "OK" to apply the settings
- Select "Tools->Key signature"
- Right-click on the first measure in the staff and select "Other..."
- In the upper drop-down box, select "Nonstandard..."
- Click "Next" twice
- Click on "KeyMap"
- Set the "Total Steps" to 24 (and not the "Diatonic Steps")
- Click on the squares to change their configuration to oxxxoxxxoxoxxxoxxxoxxxox (o is white x is black)
- Click "OK"
- Click on "Attribute"
- Click on "Symbol Font" and choose "Tempera" as the font and click "OK"
- Click on "Symbol List ID"
- Now set the following by pressing "Insert" then "Next" after EACH one (the characters are case-sensitive):
Alter:0 / Characters: T (capital T)
Alter:1 / Characters: ] (right bracket)
Alter:2 / Characters: g (small g)
Alter:3 / Characters: q (small q)
Alter:4 / Characters: z (small z)
Alter:-1 / Characters: < (less than)
Alter:-2 / Characters: A (capital A)
Alter:-3 / Characters: 7 (digit 7)
Alter:-4 / Characters: . (dot)
- Then click "OK" in all the open widowns to apply the settings and return to the music sheet
- Now you can use the "+1/2" and "-1/2" from the simple entry palette to raise or lower by quarter steps
To change the key signature:
- Select "Tools->Key signature"
- Right-click on the first measure in the staff and select "Other..."
- In the upper drop-down box, select "Nonstandard..."
- Play with the up and down arrows to change the key signature as you like
I tried to be as much detailed as possible.. I hope this will help.
I am using Finale 2009.. so you may find slight modification to the above steps.. and maybe not..
GOOD LUCK 
|
|
|
Reda Aouad
Oud Junkie
Posts: 553
Registered: 1-2-2009
Location: Lebanon
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Thanks.. I will try TablEdit..
As for Sibelius.. it doesn't have the Arabic half-flat accidental.. the usual flat ('b' facing to the right) with a slash on it.. and you cannot have
a key signature with quarter notes..
I just tried Lylipond but it is too much of a hassle.. I've previously used such tools but it is too much time consuming..
Thanks anyways
|
|
|
Reda Aouad
Oud Junkie
Posts: 553
Registered: 1-2-2009
Location: Lebanon
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by Edward Powell
wow, thanks... gee seems like a lot of options available. Of course I would rather go with a free option, but I have had unpleasant experiences
always with trail versions.....
Still I wonder what would be the easiest way to go - since I already have a great working full version of finale - and know well how to use it (except
for the coma notes...)
thanks! |
Ed.. I wrote to you the steps for the Arabic notation.. only quarter notes.. if you want to write in Turkish coma style tell me so I can tell you what
to change..
|
|
|
eliot
Oud Junkie
Posts: 252
Registered: 1-5-2005
Location: The Gorges
Member Is Offline
Mood: Aksak
|
|
Lilypond has a steep learning curve, but is the only program with true native support for Turkish and Arab microtones. It also allows flats
and sharps with arrows or with superscript numbers (either on the staff or in the key signature), which is immensely useful when accurately notating
things like a 2-comma flat note.
|
|
|
eliot
Oud Junkie
Posts: 252
Registered: 1-5-2005
Location: The Gorges
Member Is Offline
Mood: Aksak
|
|
Thanks Reda for the tips on using Finale - sometimes I have to work with finale scores, and typically I lose 2 hours trying to recreate the steps you
detailed above!
|
|
|
Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 2916
Registered: 1-30-2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Member Is Offline
Mood: Stringish
|
|
There are a couple of simpler ways to work with Arabic notation in Finale.
As Reda says, it is pretty much impossible to have it play back correctly.
I've come up with some workarounds that preserve most of the playback function (except for the specific notes when a quarter tone is required).
1- first thing is, install a font that has the appropriate symbols.
2- if you just need an occasional symbol, use the articulation tool, create a half-flat and/or half-sharp symbol, and apply it directly to the note.
You can figure out how to make it appear in the correct position automatically, or just position it manually.
If you had a piece that was in Hijaz, but had a few B-half-flats, this might be a good solution.
Everything would play back correctly except the half-flats (it's actually possible to make the articulation a 1/4tone pitch bend and have it play
back, but it's not worth the effort, I assure you).
2- if you want a key signature that has no mixing (i.e., all half-flats, all half-sharps) you can just choose the closest normal key signature and
assign the font to the appropriate symbol.
For example, Rast would be a Bb key signature (2 flats) and set the key signature "flat" symbol to = the half-flat symbol.
Everything would play back sort-of right, except it would be a different mode, with flats in the place of half-flats, etc. Still, it would be useful
for audio-proofreading (the main function of playback for me).
3- I don't like using the key signature system that's built-in for microtonal key signatures (as Reda described).
Here's a solution I came up with, using the "clef designer" tool, it allows you to make any key signature you can imagine:
Go into document options
select "clefs"
go to the clef designer
design a new clef+key signature:
You want to have a clef (typically G clef).
Next to the clef, put in the symbols for the key signature, so the the key signature is part of the "clef". you can use any symbols you want.
All of this is done with the text tool (within clef designer), using your music fonts for the clef and accidentals.
fonts should typically be 24 point.
once you create the symbols, you can move them around into the right positions.
Once the clef is done, go back to the document and hide the key signature (either with the measure tool, or with the staff styles tool).
You may have to adjust the option for the spacing following the clef, so that the music doesn't collide with the clef.
Once you make some clefs, you can save them in a library and use them again later.
My preference is to make some blank templates with the common key signatures and use those as a starting point when I do a new piece.
This works well for microtonal and mixed key signatures, or other nonstandard key signatures.
You can still use the regular key signature that's closest, since it will be hidden anyway, and this will make your playback a little better
(i.e., you could use an Eb key signature for D bayati, so that most of the notes will be close, and the E 1/2flats will just sound as Eb's)
4. If the piece has a lot of half-flats, half sharps, etc., you can set the "double-flat" and "double-sharp" symbols to be half-flat and half-sharp
instead, then you can just alter the notes to get the symbols.
It sounds pretty wrong when playing it back, but not as wrong as using a 24-step key signature.
Honestly, the solution that Reda outlines works, but it's a huge pain, effectively makes playback useless, and I avoid it if possible.
|
|
|
Reda Aouad
Oud Junkie
Posts: 553
Registered: 1-2-2009
Location: Lebanon
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Thanks Brian and Eliot for the tips They should help in most situations.. but
anyways it's always a workaround and never perfect..
Honestly I don't know why one of the most professional notation software doesn't natively support microtonal notation and playback, considering that
geographically, half of the world play non-western music of some kind. It's frustrating. You just start trying different other tools and find out that
each has its own problems and/or deficiencies.
|
|
|
Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
Registered: 1-20-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: g'oud
|
|
I have downloaded and installed LILYPOND, and when I now try to open it it says to conduct this small test, which I did successfully - - - but still
the program will not open... it keeps asking me to do this test again and again...
any suggestions?
|
|
|
Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
Registered: 1-20-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: g'oud
|
|
...another small irritation I am experiencing is trying to UN - RAR a keygen which I need to re-install FINALE... can anyone suggest a good
available un-raring program on-line?
THANKS
ps, man i would rather be playing oud )
|
|
|
Reda Aouad
Oud Junkie
Posts: 553
Registered: 1-2-2009
Location: Lebanon
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
download the trial version of winrar.. it will do.. and will not expire.. just google it
|
|
|
Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
Registered: 1-20-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: g'oud
|
|
cool!
will try!
|
|
|
Reda Aouad
Oud Junkie
Posts: 553
Registered: 1-2-2009
Location: Lebanon
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by Edward Powell
I have downloaded and installed LILYPOND, and when I now try to open it it says to conduct this small test, which I did successfully - - - but still
the program will not open... it keeps asking me to do this test again and again...
any suggestions? |
What test? :S
I installed it.. didn't start the program.. just create a text file and change its extension to ".ly".. follow the documentation online to create your
first sample sheet.. save the file.. and then double-click it.. it will compile and generate a pdf file if your syntax is correct..
After taking Eliot's advice.. I may stick to Lilypond.. I have the programming spirit like he does and I am used to writing thousands of lines of
code.. and after knowing that it natively support microtones it's great news! I am digging my way into it now.. I wonder though if the playback is
correct with microtones..
|
|
|
Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
Registered: 1-20-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: g'oud
|
|
... well you are much more clever than me !  I still can't get past that test
page but will try again...
I realise that the playback is infact very important for me because my reading and writing is not great, and the playback help me to confirm that I
have written it all properly.
For sure Reda, let us know if the playback is working nicely... even if it can not play microtones...
|
|
|
Reda Aouad
Oud Junkie
Posts: 553
Registered: 1-2-2009
Location: Lebanon
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
A-M-A-Z-I-N-G !!
The microtonal MIDI playback of Lilypond is totally correct!! 
|
|
|
Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
Registered: 1-20-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: g'oud
|
|
...getting lilypond to work:
so I
-installed it
-clicked on the icon
-it tells me to save this as text.ly
-then i drag this and drop it on the icon
-this creates a PDF file which shows a C major scale.
NOW WHAT?
|
|
|
Reda Aouad
Oud Junkie
Posts: 553
Registered: 1-2-2009
Location: Lebanon
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
What do you exactly want to do?
Im not an expert yet but I may help you as I wrote a simple sheet with microtones and played it back in MIDI..
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
2
3
..
5 |
![[*]](images/xmbprobrown/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
