prince oud
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turkish and indian oud techniques
Hi,
Anybody know where i can learn turkish techniques on the net?And also how to incorporate them to the arabic oud?
Anybody know where i can learnindian scales on the net?And also how to incorporate them to the arabic oud?
I play the arabic oud and is so intrigued at the techniques of the turkish oud players when they play.Also intrigued at how aboud khawaja plays the
tukish And indian styles on the oud
Hope Anyone can help.. 
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Edward Powell
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The first and most important thing is simply to listen to TONS of Ottoman and Indian classical music. Do you want to learn Hindustani or Carnatic
(north or south indian) stuff?
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dubai244
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Hi,
Personally, I have been listen to Turkish players in general and Yurdal Tokcan specifically last 2 years, and i try to copy some of his music and play
it in my oud. And that help me alot to improve my turkish style. and i did same thing with indian style and it works. But i mainly focus in the iraqi
and turkish style than any thing els.
Having said that, you should have the basic for it in order to play these styles. What i mean by basic is the Inverted Risha and Fingers Position
along the neck space and how to use them to forward and backward using different Maqam or scale.
For information about Risha and Finger Position, you search through the forum, it is been covered already.
Thanks
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Edward Powell
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techniques are of course very important... however getting the "feeling" of these styles deeply also requires also getting to know the musical theory
behind turkish makams and indian ragas.
so if you have done a lot of listening, then the next step is to get a teacher who can show you the theory and the techniques... net sources help,
but it is important to hang around those who KNOW what you want to learn...
put all of this together and for sure it will 'rub off' on YOU too 
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MatthewW
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Hi Prince- I have been interested in exploring and adapting Indian/Hindustani music and technique to the oud as well, all things being equal. The
Indian scales or ragas share some similiarites to Arabic/Turkish maqams and a few are more or less identical. One of the big differences in
performance techniques is that ragas are slightly less flexible than maqams - I found that in playing classical Indian music with other Indian
musicians there is very little modulation from one key to another, or maqam to maqam. They tend to stay rooted around one key/tonal centre ( the
chosen raga) and work that baby for a long time. There is also a certain protocol in the classical Indian tradition of how to develop and unfold the
raga during a performance, and then there is the concept of a raga belonging to a certain time of the day a morning, afternoon or evening raga. pretty
cool.
The musical challenge for the musician wanting to play in a more or less classical Indian/Hindustani tradition is not only to know all of the above,
but to have developed the skills to work the notes of a specific raga every which way but loose and to explore every conceiveable pattern, combination
and phrase that the notes of the specific raga can produce. 
The beauty of this is that the playing is nearly all improvisation (sticking to the accepted notes of the raga), and like a taqsim on the oud it can
be a lot of fun, a musical voyage and an expression of your musicianship. If you listen closley to someone like Pandit Ravi Shankar when he was at the
height of his playing (he's 89 now but still a force to reckon with) he just blows your mind with his technique and ability to improvise within the
raga's framework.
There is a book called The Raga Guide ( get it at Amazon) which lists 74 important ragas in use today, their notation, and comes with 4 CDs with
examples.
The sarod and oud share similiarities in having a fretless fingerboard and you can adapt some riffs and sarod technique to your oud from listening
closely to how sarod players do their thing.
here is a list of some ragas;
http://www.wyastone.co.uk/nrl/world/raga/intro3.html
Of course you don't have to play oud in a traditional Indian way with ragas; take what you want, whatever you feel and want to express on your
instrument is the way to go. This is the beauty of the oud, you can play it Arabic, Turkish, Armenian, Indian, Jazz, funk or even Abba - regards, mw
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nayoud
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Try this program for Turkish music
http://www.musiki.org/
Cheers
Hisham
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prince oud
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Thank you very much for your help!!!!!!
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Edward Powell
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I have actually had a very long experience with doing my best to incorporate indian music on the oud (i'm talking about north indian music).
[the other part of the question concerns playing turkish things on an arab oud --- THIS of course is not such a mystery or difficult affair at all!
...but playing indian things on an oud actually really IS something to consider and discuss]
In my experience, of course a normal oud player can learn the "raga-rules/system" and then give a raga performance on an oud. However, I feel it is
really not at all as simple as that...
The issue that I have come up against time and time again is that in fact (and obviously), over the centuries, middle-eastern instruments evolved to
better produce THAT music. And Indian instruments evolved to better produce INDIAN music. Each of those musics, although intimately related and
similar, still are significantly different - enough so as to require instruments with different characteristics.
An oud has a rather blunt dry sound (like a desert)... but this does not work well with indian phrasing which requires long sustain and legato.
Sarods and sitars on the other hand have much less capacity for modulation between 'scales'.
This is exactly why I designed and built the "ragmakamtar" [ http://www.youtube.com/edwardpowellmusic ]... to in fact come up with a single instrument capable of both oud and sarod styles.
If one still wants to play indian style on an oud, then the best way in my opinion is to do it on the nylon strings with the sarod nail technique -
this works well. Otherwise, it still can be done and I would never want to discourage anyone -
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MatthewW
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You raise a good point here Edward, that Indian instruments have evolved to play classical Indian music and Arabic/Turkish instruments their musics.
In trying to play the oud in an Indian style along with classical (north ) Indian musicians, I have seen some of the ouds limitations in this area. I
then stopped trying too hard to sound completely Indian and accepted that each instrument has it's own strong points and limitations when compared
with other instruments, and to just let the oud sound like an oud and let it bring something new to Indian music.
Some of the limitations I have come across are that many Indian instruments can be tuned to a specific raga on the spot, where as I don't want all the
hassle of tuning my oud ( 13 strings) to a raga that may be in an unusual or harder to play key for the oud and so am challenged to play in different
keys/modes/scales in my ouds set tuning.
At first this was really tough work, I think we get used to playing maqams in different keys that are 'right there within our grasp', and we don't
have to actually change our oud's tuning for each maqam.
then there is the challenge of playing ragas where you have to avoid some notes and only play others that belong to the raga, and no modulation, and
to try and play runs/phrases at speed within this context. I found this to be a good discipline, and challenges one to be inventive and try to keep it
interesting. The positive side of coming up against these factors just mentioned was to help me to gain a better working knowledge of my oud's
fingerboard and to discover how to improvise in new ways that I wouldn't have attempted before had I stuck to the Arabic/Turkish maqam system only.
Perhaps you had this experience as well.
However for some ragas it was not a problem to play if the raga was in D/C and the raga was similiar in notation to a maqam I was familiar with- like
ragas bhairaivi, kirvani or yaman to name 3.
As far as the sound of the oud, I just accepted that the oud has it's own unique sound, and that it will work with Indian music. It may not have the
sustain of the sarod or sitar or dilruba etc, but what it does have is unique and I found that listeners enjoyed the sound of the oud playing in an
Indian context, along with tablas,tanpura, bansuri and so on. with a good sound system you can add a bit of reverb or delay to the oud and that will
add a wee bit of sustain, but I think anyone wanting to play the oud in an Indian style, in a raga framework, needs to accept the oud as it is and let
the magic of the oud shine forth. I was told after one recent concert where I played oud with Indian musicians by some listeners (who actually were
Indian) that the oud sounded at times like a cross between a sarod and santoor! I was humbly pleased by their comments, especially as I was very
apprehensive all through the concert! As the world gets smaller and musicians from different cultures jam, then perhaps we will see more Indian oud
being played. I also think the oud is more of an adaptable instrument - it can play Indian ragas better than say the sitar or sarod can play
Arabic/Turkish maqamat.  cheers- MW
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Edward Powell
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Playing exactly "oud" specifically in an Indian context, my feeling is that the best way (my opinion) is for the oudi to know the raga and the tala
and that raga system fully - THEN to play the oud in an arab or turkish way for the most part using the raga/tala instead of makam.
This way the oud sounds it's best, and the oudi is actually bringing forth something totally new into indian music - - - also to take a few small
liberties, like when playing bhairavi, to do a tiny tiny occational touch on ussak or bayati... WHY NOT?
I feel that the oudi in this context should not behave like a small scared mouse intimidated by a bunch of RULES that the normal listener has no idea
about anyway. The oud comes from the middle-east so bring some middle-eastern SPICE to the party you have been invited to.
Of course it doesn't hurt to learn a bit about gamak and harkat type indian decorations, and throw that in a bit also - but to try to be wholesale
indian on an oud is perhaps an injustice to the oud.
IMO
)
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