Elie Riachi
Oud Junkie
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Survey about Aquila Nylgut 12th string
Hello' ',
Roy Cone at http://www.ukuleleworld.com/uw_oud_strings.html could start stocking a single sixth course string for those of us who would like to use 12 strings
in the oud instead of 11. It would help to have an idea of how many oudist would use 12 strings of the Aquila Nylgut.
So would you use 12 Aquila Nylgut strings in your oud?
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LeeVaris
Oud Junkie
Posts: 379
Registered: 12-16-2003
Location: Los Angeles
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Mood: oud lover
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12th String
I'd go for a 12th string
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Elie Riachi
Oud Junkie
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Roy's exact questions
Hello everyone,
Here are Ukulele World's Roy Cone's exact questions from a reply to an email inquirey I sent him regarding 12 string Aquila Nylgut sets:
" Will most people want the 12th string set?
My question really is...... should I buy future sets from Aquila with 12 strings even if it will raise the price of the string sets by a dollar or
so? "
It is worth it for me. Anyone else?
Regards,
Elie
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aquila
Oud Maniac
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Hello friends,
I think Roy in a misktake:
the sets are with 11 strings, not 12....
Ciao
Mimmo
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Elie Riachi
Oud Junkie
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Request
Hi Mimmo,
Roy is looking into obtaining 12 string sets if possible.
Is it possible to obtain Aquila nylgut 12-string sets for the Arabic tuning c' g d A F C?
Regards,
Elie
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mavrothis
Oud Junkie
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Hi Elie, I'm not interested in the 12 string sets, I'll probably always play just 11. I'm posting b/c I noticed that you didn't
write the typical 12 string tuning which is from lowest to highest:
F A D g c f - all double courses.
Could there maybe be too much tension if you have the bass C string as a double course?
Take care,
mav
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LeeVaris
Oud Junkie
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Registered: 12-16-2003
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12 string sets
I don't think there'd be enough people who want 12 string sets to warrant ordering special sets. For those few that might want it it would
be simpler to just offer single strings. I'm using a double 6th course with low C in one of my ouds to see if I can strengthen the bass on this
particular oud. So far I'm not sure that there is an noticeable effect. I'm pretty sure that just one more string doesn't add
significantly to the stress on the top – I do get some buzzing on that low C if I hit it hard though. I also don't think that using an F
instead of C would reduce the tension unless you used a much thinner string – most string sets are going to have a pretty consistent tension from
string to string across the range maybe deviating a few newtons - a string designed to be tuned to F would have a similar tension to one designed to
be tuned to C. Now if you tuned your C string up to F – you'd have higher tension and THAT would be bad!
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Elie Riachi
Oud Junkie
Posts: 582
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Hello,
Adding an extra string will add tension. also tuning a C string to F will increase the tension.
IMO, a good C string for the oud would have to be made of denser material and just the right modulus so for it to not be such a large gauge to achieve
the working tension.
The tension indicated on the oud strings set J95 by D'Addario, if correct and for the scale length they are using, averages to 14.9 pounds per
string and a total of 164.3 pounds! This may be too much tension for the oud to handle and I think it makes it harder to play and keep in tune.
I agree that increasing tension increases loudness but I do not think that is the whole truth. I think there is a certain range of tension where each
string will vibrate for longer times and sound its best. I have a gut feeling that this range may depend on the Young's modulus of the string
material (more research)!
Experimenting with my oud I found that there are certain frequencies at which each string seem to sound the best (loudness, quality, ease of play,
duration) eventhough it was set to a lower tension.
My experience; low tension = easy play but you need to have enough tension for the string to be able to vibrate the sound board.
I am begining to reach a conclusion that a tension around 6.5 to 9 pounds might be desired (still tinkering.) I also think the tension of the
strings should be balanced across the nut to avoid the possibilty of warping the neck to the side of greater tension.
Also I noticed my oud seems to resonate best at F. Any one else made a similar observation?
Lots of variables in play here.... my apology for the long post.
Regards,
Elie Riachi
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billkilpatrick
Oud Junkie
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i don't think there's much to be gained from an additional 6th course string. as stated, the increased tension could effect the structure,
not only from pulling the neck up but also by pulling it to the left as well.
there's hardly enough space as it is on the oud's narrow neck, why try to cram in another string?
a thin, octave string in the 6th course might be a novelty but i don't fancy it much.
also, the nice, even distribution of tone that one gets with nylgut could get imbalanced and made top heavy with too much emphasis on the bass.
i'm not a great fan of these irritating little "smile" buttons but if there was one with its thumb pointing down, i'd be tempted
to use it for this.
tante bene cose - bill
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Elie Riachi
Oud Junkie
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Hello friends,
I placed an order for a set of 12 Nylgut strings by Aquila for the Arabic oud tuning. Waiting to try them out.....
Bill, I am thinking that having 2 strings in the 6th course would be more consistant with the rest and kind of have a better tension distribution?
Regrads,
Elie
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billkilpatrick
Oud Junkie
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dear elie -
it occurs to me that unless you have one already adapted for the full 6 courses, you'll also have to reposition the notches (make new incisions)
in the nut to accommodate the additional 6th bass string.
let us know how you get on.
- bill
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Elie Riachi
Oud Junkie
Posts: 582
Registered: 4-9-2004
Location: Kansas
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Hello everyone,
Wow! Roy at Ukelele World is sure fast. I got my Aquila Arabic oud string set (tuning cgdAFC) in the mail Monday. I haven't installed them in
the oud yet, but I weighed and measured the length of one string per course, pluged this information along with the scale length of my oud into an
equation I set up on the computer to compute the tension each string will have and I came up with the following:
Tuning / Tension in pounds
c4 / 10.4
g3 / 8.47
d3 / 10.8
A2 / 8.83
F2 / 8.55
C2 / 9.11
There are about 6 pounds of unbalanced tension across the neck towards the high pitch end but the saving grace is that 4 pounds of it is close to the
center (I am using 12 strings.)
The C2 string is very interesting, it is not as large a gauge as one might expect given the working tension, and for that I would say that Aquila has
done a good job.
Next is the real test when I get a chance to install them and try them out.
Regards,
Elie
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Elie Riachi
Oud Junkie
Posts: 582
Registered: 4-9-2004
Location: Kansas
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Mood: Gebran Tueni Lives For Ever, 12-12-05.
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12 th bass string and other observations...
Hello all.
Bill,
I installed all 12 strings, and this tourist oud can take the net tension with no appearant problems. The 12 bass sounded fine no buzzing and
computed tension is 9.11 lb @ C2.
However due to the original nut being made of wood, the bottom of third course's d3 groove got worne out and it was at the level of the
fingerboard at the time I was tuning it. So the third course started buzzing. To shorten the story, I cut me out a new nut from Corian. My first
attempt at cutting the groove failed (I do not have the $125 set of nut files) since the first course and 3rd course grooves were cut too narrow at
the bottom which lead to tearing up the first and third courses' of my Aquila strings.
Second attempt at cutting a nut came out successfull. I replaced the 3rd and first courses with D'Addario J4703 and J4701 strings... Here the
intersting obseravation:
First course: J4701 @ 9.1 lb @ c4, sounds fine. Less tension than the Aquila replacement but still feels the same;
Third course: J4703 @ 6.4 ib @ d3, sounds low volume but rich. This is too little tension in my opinion for this string other than that it fits in
fine with the Aquila strings above and below it.
I decided to compare the D'Addario J4703 string pair to the Aquila 3rd string pair when both pairs are tuned to G3 and observed the following:
J4703 (Gage .040", tunned g3 @ 8.6 lb): Sounds deep, rich and a little on the bass side. Pleasant and blends well and good volume.
Aquila (Gage .0305", tunned g3 @8.47 lb):
Has (as my wife put it) a little twang, pleasant, blends well and good volume.
In conclusion:
1. The two had the same loudness at about same tension, like Dr. Oud said, loudness is a function of tension.
2. Note the big gage difference. The gage seems to affect whether the produced sound is deep or bright etc....
3. A 12 th string for bass seems to work fine. But I have always strung my oud this way, so I cannot compare yet. We need the input of more seasoned
oud players on the pros and cons of a 12 th bass string.
Next, I will be testing a set of D'Addario strings that I custom put together to keep the tensions around 7.5 lb:
c4/7.1 lb
g3/7.5 lb
d3/7.33 lb
A2/7.27 lb
F2/7.45 lb
C2/7.7 lb
This time I will only use 1 string for C2.
I hope you find this post useful.
Elie
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Dr. Oud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1370
Registered: 12-18-2002
Location: Sacramento, CA, USA
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Elie Riachi
"(I do not have the $125 set of nut files) since the first course and 3rd course grooves were cut too narrow at the bottom which lead to tearing
up the first and third courses' of my Aquila strings."
You don't need a full set of files, only the small round bastard. The grooves should be slightly larger that the string diameter to avoid binding
and the rear of the groove should curve gently and open to allow the string to enter the peg box without bending sharply over an edge. The front edge
of the groove should be broken or radiused to avoid binding on the windings of the wound strings. The grooves can stop short of the top edge of the
nut if you like, just be sure there are no sharp edges that the string has to pass over. The bottom of the string should be 1mm or 1/32inch above the
fingerboard. I suggest checking with the string in place in case there's a drop in the fingerboard at the top nut.
"...In conclusion:
1. The two had the same loudness at about same tension, like Dr. Oud said, loudness is a function of tension."
Loudness or volume is a result of complex factors including tension and mass of the string as well as the structure of the face. Elie's
measurements and experiments are very informative and helpful, but each oud will react differently and each player should experiment to find the best
combination of guages for each of their ouds. We should be thankful to Elie for showing us how to find those optimum string guages unless we are lucky
to have an oud that reacts well to a standard set. The better ouds will, since they are designed to, the cheap ones aren't, don't, need help
and often a lot of it. Guaging can improve these, but you know you can't polish a pig's ear ( or something like that).
"Also I noticed my oud seems to resonate best at F. Any one else made a similar observation?"
Every oud has it's favorite pitch, influenced by the player's preference, strings, mizrab and even the weather. A well made oud can be
designed for a specific pitch range, but the combination of factors will ultimately determine what that is. |
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Elie Riachi
Oud Junkie
Posts: 582
Registered: 4-9-2004
Location: Kansas
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Mood: Gebran Tueni Lives For Ever, 12-12-05.
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Hello
Dr. Oud, what I meant regarding loudness is that holding all the other variables the same, except in this case the string gauge and material, loudness
appeareds to be a function of tension. I was just trying to make a long post short. Thank you for expanding on this. Your input is very helpful and
informative too and I respect your input and experience very much.
(P.S. Which round file is that, what are the diameters on it, is it tapered and where can I get one?)
Regards,
Elie
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billkilpatrick
Oud Junkie
Posts: 563
Registered: 1-3-2004
Location: italy
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6th comma meantone
there's been an interesting thread on the lute site related to tuning the lute. in it, i discovered for the first time something called 6th
comma meantone. if i understand this properly, the relationship between one note and another is not perfect; the number of spaces (cents) between
notes on the scale are not equal, therefore the distance between them varies. i can retrieve some of the more technical correspondence for those
that are interested (they also discuss the merits of different digital tuners and tuning computer programs) but the basic - home spun - tuning advice
is this: (bearing in mind this is for a lute)
"For 6th comma meantone (I assume you've set your frets), tune your 1st and 6th courses, then just try to tune the 5th string 2 cents sharp;
the 4th 4 c sharp; the 2nd 2 c flat the 3rd 4 c flat. In my experience, since the pitch of a lute drops over time, and pegs and strings are not
perfect, it is very difficult to get it spot on, but that is what I am for. I also have a tastini glued at the first fret on the fourth string for F
sharp."
perhaps not having frets allows us oudies the ability to find a more spontaneous, easily adjusted, "perfect" tuning and it may be that
arabic music simply doesn't have this tuning discrepancy built in (i'm completely ignorant about arabic modes of tuning - i use an oud
tuning on my oud to play early european music) but what i gained from this thread is a renewed confidence in my own sense of what is "in
tune" and what ain't - regardless of what the little light on my digital tuner has to say about it.
- bill
added later...
for those with a technical leaning, here is a very interesting and informative site. again, it's lute orientated but pertains to us as well:
Http://home.planet.nl/~d.v.ooijen/david/
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Dr. Oud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1370
Registered: 12-18-2002
Location: Sacramento, CA, USA
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Elie Riachi
(P.S. Which round file is that, what are the diameters on it, is it tapered and where can I get one?)
I use a tapered round file, ranging from 1-3mm and can be found at some hardware stores, jeweler's suppliers and machinist suppliers.
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