fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
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Mood: m'Oudy
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Temporary neck markers for intonation (+pics)
At the risk of excommunication, I thought I'd throw this idea out to my fellow new oudies here, as it has served me well.
It's very difficult for people who are new to a fretless instrument to hit the notes perfectly, and permanent inlaid neck markers have become
commonplace on fretless basses. Even experienced players admit they can be useful on occasion. They are rare on the oud. To add temporary ones to a
smooth neck with tape etc is possible, but it's a mess. Dots on the side of the neck are quite insufficient, because of parallax. Pencil
marks vanish and more permanent lines detract from the instrument's appearance. That black 1/16" Art Tape is thick enough to cause buzzing. I tried
everything, then came up with this simple solution for bass, and it works for oud too: don't mark the neck, mark the strings.
Once new [bass] strings have stabilized, position changes due to stretching turn out to be minimal. I was prepared to redo marks as needed, but have
never had to. I don't have much experience with nylon on the oud, so far so good, but I'm not sure long term, you can make your own determination.
It's easy to wipe off markers and redo them if needed in a few minutes ... or not. 
The simplest way to try this is to download the free WFRET program, which is designed for luthiers to place frets on a guitar. It prints out a chart
and a graphic template. Examine all the program's options. Enter the precise measured scale length of your oud, request a template for 7
frets and print it in Landscape mode. You must set up your default printer in landscape mode, as this is an old program which just prints with no
access to the printer properties. Of course if you often play higher up, you can print a template to "fret lines" 8, 9 or more. Say, specify 12 frets.
Test the template very carefully, by tuning perfectly, laying the cut out template on the neck under the strings (see photos), and fingering notes
exactly on the lines with your fingernail, and see if they agree with an electronic tuner and at e.g. the neck-bowl line. I have heard that some
printers distort dimensions, and you might have to tweak the driver settings, clean the paper rollers, or compensate by artificially adjusting the
scale. In my case I have always had very accurate results on several printers.
Once you know your template is good, coat it with scotch tape or immortalize it some other way, so you can keep it and reuse it for this oud. Save the
settings in the software for each instrument. Back the template with something so no ink ever bleeds onto the fingerboard while marking. Align the
template exactly and use e.g. a marker pen, Sharpie, Paint Sharpie, or whatever is most (or least) permanent for your needs, to mark the strings at
the lines on the template. Some markers make marks that resist wear pretty well, yet can be quickly removed with orange-oil "goo removers". Always
cover your fingerboard, soundboard, tabletop, carpeting, clothing, walls, etc to keep ink and solvents off.
Strings don't twist very much once they stabilize, and, if you care, small marks carefully made on the player side of the string are more resistant to
rubbing off and practically invisible from the audience angle. You can use a different color for essential intervals. These are all details you can
work out to your taste.
I don't think it is necessary or appropriate, but if you wanted 1/4 tone markers, you could probably get them by halving the scale. At some point I
will no longer need markers, but until that day comes, I find this simple, reversible, and inoffensive. If nothing else, it makes a good way to get
acquainted with your oud's neck. You may have to determine exactly how to best finger relative to the marks, or you may wish to deliberately offset
them, but people who don't think this can work, for reason X, Y or Z, may be pleasantly surprised if they try it. If this is pedagogically or
ideologically wrong, you can always ignore the dots until your in-laws insist it's time to strum the F#M7+9 chord in "Up, Up and Away".
We all understand, of course, that we are dealing with standard Equal Temperament intervals here, and that if you want e.g. Pythagorean intervals, you
must make adjustments.
You can download the free WFRET program here:
http://europa.spaceports.com/~fishbake/soft/wfret.zip
Here is what a first pass looks like. Granted I didn't do a perfect job, but it's usable, and you can do much better. Notice how some strings against
scotch tape tend to create a capillary suction that smears the ink, so my next template will be different, I haven't worked out the ideal marking
technique for oud strings yet. Feedback and experience with different markers on different oud string materials are appreciated. 
[file]10648[/file] [file]10650[/file]
[file]10654[/file] [file]10656[/file]
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oudtab
Oud Maniac
Posts: 85
Registered: 3-17-2009
Location: France
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Mood: No Mood
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Bonjour Fernand,
Oud markers and markers in general (guitar, bass...) are only for the player. The most important in music is music. If you feel better and
comfortable in your playing with markers, use it, and the music you play will be better.
I've written something about oud markers : http://sites.google.com/site/oudguitare/theneck
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SamirCanada
Moderator
Posts: 3405
Registered: 6-4-2004
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Hi Fernand,
there is another trick to help beginners with the positions on the oud. You can take sticky paper (the kind you separate from another wax paper film)
and punch little holes in it with a hole puncher. Now take those little pieces of punched paper and stick them to the TOP edge of the neck just above
the area where your thumb glides on the neck. You can place them easily now since you already have the lines where the major and minor tones are. This
is way better in my opinion because it enables the player to have a proper posture and playing position and it avoids you looking at the fingerboard
which is something you shouldnt do otherwise you will have neck and back pain.
and also they are only temporary so you can then remove them easily.
by the way Fernand this is off topic but since you live in san francisco you should really look around to see if you can find a teacher and sign up
for a few lessons. There is a wealth of teachers in your area and there really is nothing better to speed up the learning process then someone
actually showing you how to play.
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Christian1095
Oud Junkie
Posts: 454
Registered: 4-29-2008
Location: North Carolina, USA
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Hey man, I have the same kind of markings on the neck of my Sukkar oud.... If you notice, your ''frets'' come right to the last square more or
less... that's how I tend to think of them anyway... It's not exact, but I have big fat fingers anyway
Also, I try go go over some scales with my tuner next to me... that has helped me too...
I agree though, It would be nice to have some inlay on the neck that marked out interval...
Chris Walters
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SamirCanada
Moderator
Posts: 3405
Registered: 6-4-2004
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Chris! what are you doing looking at that neck? shouldnt you be looking at the crowd??
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freya
Oud Junkie
Posts: 275
Registered: 2-8-2004
Location: Asheville NC
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Mood: Happy in the mountains of WNC
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I'd like to amplify the importance of getting instruction early on even if one has been playing guitar and/or bass for a long time as I had. After
about six months of bad left hand position, I developed trigger finger in my left pinky. Basically my hand position was wrong and I was reaching too
far with my pinky. I never felt any pain or strain until the finger went snap I ended up needing cortisone injections to reduce the inflammation but
was left with permanently weakened tendons (a cautionary note about cortisone injections). As soon as my first oud instructor saw my hand postion
(which was shortly before the damage), he said that I would blow out my pinky if I kept playing that way. Unfortunately, it was too late; the damage
was done.
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Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 2918
Registered: 1-30-2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
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Mood: Stringish
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Quote: Originally posted by freya  | | I'd like to amplify the importance of getting instruction early on even if one has been playing guitar and/or bass for a long time as I had. After
about six months of bad left hand position, I developed trigger finger in my left pinky. Basically my hand position was wrong and I was reaching too
far with my pinky. I never felt any pain or strain until the finger went snap I ended up needing cortisone injections to reduce the inflammation but
was left with permanently weakened tendons (a cautionary note about cortisone injections). As soon as my first oud instructor saw my hand postion
(which was shortly before the damage), he said that I would blow out my pinky if I kept playing that way. Unfortunately, it was too late; the damage
was done. |
Sorry to hear that! It's terrible when a musician has that kind of injury.
I'm curious to know what your hand position looked like that could have caused such a problem . . . I've never heard of that happening (and I've known
lots of musicians with various hand problems, including myself).
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freya
Oud Junkie
Posts: 275
Registered: 2-8-2004
Location: Asheville NC
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Mood: Happy in the mountains of WNC
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Brian,
Maybe there should be another thread on hand injuries (both on instruments and in the workshop) and how to avoid them - especially for older folks
that have long history of heavy hand usage. In any case, when I started I had my thumb far across the bass strings - typical guitar player style,
especially if one often frets the bass string with the thumb gypsy style. This meant that the pinky was fully extended when, say, playing the C# on
the A string. That combined with excessive force puts a lot of strain on the tendon. Bassam straightened me out both on hand position and minimizing
fingering force. This all reinforces the importance of good technique when starting out.
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
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Samir,
Look at the photo below, the ink spots are visible from the top. Your dots would work, there are many ways, I happen to like mine (what else is new?).
Personally, I can't get any precision out of dots on the side of the neck because of the parallax angle problem, it becomes little more than a rough
guide. Any adhesive stuff under the strings causes buzzing, and marking the neck looks ugly. Even professional inlays can be a problem if they have a
different hardness from the wood, the sound is affected, and they degrade the appearance IMHO. Ink is subtle, it comes off the strings with a little
solvent any time, and the instrument is never altered at all.
If you wonder about stretching, I can see the markers move as I tune, but if I let the strings settle and tune precisely before marking, so far even
on nylon it seems the positions have remained accurate. We'll see over time.
String markers can be made visible from the side (top as you play) and almost totally invisible to anyone but the player. If you try to twist strings,
you will see that they like to return to their original position. So if I ink the strings correctly, the marks are mostly on the player side. As you
can see on the photo, I can see them on the bass string even if I hold the oud perfectly vertical, and as the ink rubs off the top of the string, it
stays on the sides. Anyway, it works for me and helps me, that's all, so I thought someone else might find it useful, I'm not trying to harm anyone or
turn the oud into a ukulele.
[file]10712[/file]
| Quote: Originally posted by SamirCanada | Hi Fernand,
there is another trick to help beginners with the positions on the oud. You can take sticky paper (the kind you separate from another wax paper film)
and punch little holes in it with a hole puncher. Now take those little pieces of punched paper and stick them to the TOP edge of the neck just above
the area where your thumb glides on the neck. You can place them easily now since you already have the lines where the major and minor tones are. This
is way better in my opinion because it enables the player to have a proper posture and playing position and it avoids you looking at the fingerboard
which is something you shouldnt do otherwise you will have neck and back pain.
and also they are only temporary so you can then remove them easily. |
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spirit
Oud Lover
Posts: 10
Registered: 8-19-2009
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Promising idea! Particularly for playing on the oud face above the neck where dots on the side won't work (and where honestly it seems trickiest to
know where the pitches will be).
In at least one video of Farid el-Atrache it appears he is playing a oud whose inlays correspond to diatonic scale positions, though I suspect he was
about the very least likely person to have use for it.
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
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Can someone help find a teacher?
Can someone help me find a good teacher in the San Francisco or Berkeley area? I'm not sure how.
Thanks,
| Quote: Originally posted by SamirCanada |
by the way Fernand this is off topic but since you live in san francisco you should really look around to see if you can find a teacher and sign up
for a few lessons. There is a wealth of teachers in your area and there really is nothing better to speed up the learning process then someone
actually showing you how to play. |
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
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to: mmraslan
@MMRASLAN Moustapha, my U2U is always full, so I can't use it. Is this topic what you were talking about? This can be helpful to some people, but
watching a tuner is a better way to develop good intonation and not get into the bad habit of watching the left hand.
If you're talking about the spreadsheet I posted, no it's not meant to be placed on the neck.
The WFRET program has become harder to find, I'm uploading it here. It's useful for lots of things.
Attachment: Wfret.rar (34kB)
This file has been downloaded 168 times
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mmraslan
Oud Lover
Posts: 12
Registered: 7-14-2012
Member Is Offline
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I believe this was the thread I was talking about I was reading a lot at once  .
Thanks for the program and the spreadsheet has also been very helpful!
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