drovla
Oud Lover
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Starting to figure things out
Me again! I finally sat with a reputable oud player today and was blown away. Not only by his playing, but by the quality of his instruments. I
have posted in the past about various ouds I have seen for cheap and was rightfully mocked and ridiculed.
I am here again for a little help and guidance.
The Turkish oud that I played today had ebony tuning pegs, a beautiful spruce sound board and a straight, smooth ebony neck. It stayed in tune
nicely. Unlike the one I saw at a local guitar shop. I believe he said Sandi made it. The asking price was $1,500. He said it was a mid level
instrument and anything in the $800 - $1,000 range would probably need around $500 - $700 in work to make it play like this one. Is this
reasonable?
I attached a pic. Hopefully this is enough info.
Kind regards
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
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Dear Drovla,
No, it's NOT true that any oud that sells for $1000 requires another $500 in tweaking to be very good.
The photo shows a basic Turkish oud. Some "Sandi" ouds have sold for less, some have sold for more. Did you ask about its history? Does it have a
label? How did it do on the checklist I assembled for you? Have you read the posts here about Sandi ouds? Everything you mention as "characteristics"
are again like saying a car drives, it has wheels. This may be an exceptional instrument, or it may not. I'm not an expert on such ouds to where a
detail in the rosette might tell me a lot without playing it, and you are apparently in no position to have an impression. At $1500 most of would want
to have some idea.
I'm going to be very blunt, because my choice is either to tell you the truth or to say nothing, and I mean you well. The issue is not cheap vs.
expensive, that's not what people were reacting to. I think that unless $1500 is meaningless chump change to you, you should give yourself a little
time and effort to learn more. Even basics like: is there a specific reason you are looking at a Turkish oud? How does it differ from an Arabic?
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drovla
Oud Lover
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Well, I played an Arabic and this Turkish. The Arabic for one, was a lot more money. That was one thing that turned me off. But, more importantly.
I like the way the Turkish oud sounded. To me the tuning in A (La) is much warmer sounding then G (Sol). That's not to say I would never want an
Arabic oud, but the sound I am after more closely resembles the Turkish sound. The Turkish oud sounded warmer.
As for your check list, yes it faired very well. The action was perfect, it was very light, the sound board very flat, and it sounded brilliant and
alive. It was well balanced and as I mention above the neck was very straight. It played like "butter."
I understand that people were not reacting to "cheap vs expensive" it was my overall lack of knowledge and limited information. I don't mind your
bluntness nor anyone else's. I thought I gave some pretty specific characteristics. I guess I still have a lot to learn about this instrument, So
the fact that the pegs and neck are ebony is like saying a car has wheels? The seller made it sound like an important point. And compared to the
pegs on the instrument I saw at a local guitar shop it seemed like an important point. The overall price point is what I am after. $1,500 is a lot
to me, but worth it if the instrument is nice. I have played many "Mexican" Telecasters that played and sounded nice and were far cheaper then their
American counter part. But, when you find the right "American" Telecaster you can really tell the difference. So, would I spend $1,000 for an
American Strat when I can get something almost comparable for $400? That's the question.
I am a long time guitarist, but I want to do this correctly. I would to learn the styles as an oud player. Not some guitarist who is bored and
looking for something different. I will give myself more time and I will check out the posts regarding Sandi ouds.
Thanks again for you information.
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
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If you really like this oud, and you can afford it ... But maybe pick something cheaper now so you can get a better deal when you are better oriented?
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Christian1095
Oud Junkie
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You can have an oud made for you to your specs for $1500. You should be able to pick up a good oud for under $1000 with NO problems.
The $500 - $700 extra sounds like BS to me... Also, one of my Sukkar ouds and my Shehata oud have nice ebony pegs... My other two Sukkar ouds
don't... I don't have any problems keeping any of them them in tune... I think the assumption is that if you buy an oud that has ebony pegs,
somebody thought enough of thier product to put in the extra effort (so it's prob not a crap instrument) --- however, I would suggest that you can
have a fine instrument w/o ebony pegs.
Now I don't know much about Turkish ouds, but for Arabic, I would be a lot more willing to pick up a Sukkar oud for about $600-$700 or comission one
from a luthier ($1500 - $2000) before I bought a good "mid level" oud with a $700 markup.... Unless it was a "diamond in the rough" sort of
instrument and it was just perfect... I think my cheap Sukkar oud is one of those... but I paid $500 for it (including overnight shipping) - even
then... I would have a hard time not feeling like the guy was trying to take advantage of me....
Also, if you're looking to buy an instrument you can gig with, you might want to look into Najarian ouds... He's in SoCal too.... I believe you'll
pay the same sort of price (his stuff ain't cheap)
Also, Fernandraynoud - Have you seen the Sandi Ouds at Lark in the Morning in SF? The pic above looks just like the Sandi ouds they sell...
Chris Walters
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Yori
Oud Lover
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I was reading this thread and thought it would be useful to let you know that this exact oud was available for not even 600$ USD (and even cheaper)
brand new. And you don't need to put another 500$ to make it playable.
Good Luck!
Yori
Mundo Instruments
mundo.instruments@gmail.com
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drovla
Oud Lover
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Thanks Christian. I sent Najarian an email last night, so we shall see what comes up.
I too saw the Sandi Ouds at Lark in the Morning and was wondering about their quality. Do you have any experience with this store?
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Christian1095
Oud Junkie
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From everything I gathered from the forums... most of what they sell is crap... but I've heard that Sandi ouds are pretty decent Turkish ouds.... so
they may be the exception to the rule for that store... In all honesty I don't know... so don't make any decsions based on my feedback... but before
I dropped $1500 on that oud, I'd check them out...
Chris Walters
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Sasha
Oud Maniac
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Chris, it is not that the instruments (all types) at Lark in the Morning are crap - they aren't.
You really need to know something about the instrument (s) you are interested in - some are excellent, and some are very expensive firewood in terms
of playability.
I wouldn't buy a pricey instrument via mail order, but I do often pick up instruments when I am in town - the last time I was in Mendocino for Middle
East Camp, I stopped by the shop to tell them I would be back later in the week to look at baglama saz, and would they send over a bunch for me to
pick through.
When I returned, they had a selection of 25 or so student-model longneck baglama for me to look through. I spent a happy few hours tuning and playing
before picking out 6 to come home with me.
There are some nice instruments available there, but you need to have an eye, an ear and a sense of what is a fair price - I've seen some things that
were horribly over-priced, and I've seen some screaming deals...
Sasha
Ramadan mobarek, everyone!
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spyrosc
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Sandi
Sandi makes very good ouds. I have two of them and they are great and at different price levels (see pictures in the file sharing section).
However the one you posted does NOT look like a Sandi oud to me.
Spyros C.
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
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I'll just mention what I've dug out, which is that ebony is abrasive and too hard for most pegboxes, so it's a nice marketing touch, but technically
not even the best choice. My Sukar Model 1 had roughly black-painted pegs, and I was going to replace them until I realized they were good olive wood,
have a specific ideal taper, work fine, and only needed a little fine sanding and re-dying to make them look as good as they are. On his less
expensive models Sukar saves labor on irrelevant stuff where the user can do the final touch up, but the core design, including the adjustable neck,
is the same on all his ouds, is intelligent, repeatable, predictable and nothing short of excellent. I'm infinitely grateful to the members here who
made me aware of this, some more explicitly than others.
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drovla
Oud Lover
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Thanks fernandraynaud! Just more to ponder.
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Brian Prunka
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Good points Fernand. I also admire Sukar's work. A Lebanese friend of mine likes to call them "the toyota of ouds", since they're not fancy
(usually) but are consistently good.
I also have had good experience with olive wood pegs, I think they're a neglected resource. They seem to have a bit of natural lubricant.
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
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I think of Sukars as the Honda of ouds, in light of the low maintenance requirements -- look, ma, no neck jobs! I forget the other maker, but there
are apparently only two who offer an adjustment for the neck angle. I imagine some traditionalists would argue that articulated coupling of the neck
to the body compromises the timbre, and that the occasional neck job is a small price to pay for perfect resonance, but Sukars sound fine.
There are so many parallels. In the harpsichord world, there are radical traditionalists who eschew all adjustments; they say whatever was good enough
for the masterpieces of the 18th century is good enough now. And there are moderate pragmatists who love their adjustable jacks (the little plunger
that each key pushes up and which holds the plectrum). A tiny screw (that was too expensive to make in the 18th century) lets you control how deeply
each plectrum (made of the same Delrin our reeshas are made of) grabs the string, and another adjusts the height. When the weather changes, and the
wood shifts, the traditionalists are out there shimming and trimming, while the pragmatists pull out their little screwdrivers. Guess which side I'm
on  Same with the oud. Mabrouk, Ibrahim Sukar!
One great thing about the purely traditional harpsichords is the documentary value of the countless playing and calling cards used as shims, and which
many vintage harpsichords are full of . There have been abuses, where most early
20th century harpsichords had so many "modern improvements" they are useless. Many of these imposing gagged 350 lb mastodonths end up on e-bay, buyer
beware. Like an oud, a good harpsichord is traditionally made, of thin wood, light, resonant, loud. The oud will maybe go through similar phases. I'm
not at all impressed with the solid-body electric ouds. There's a happy middle ground.
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
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Dear Drovla,
Oh, one more detail, I feel guilty having casually mentioned such a delicate issue. If ever you sand painted pegs for looks, be careful. Check the fit
and if they fit well with that paint on them, do not ruin them: restrict your (light) sanding to the head and the part of the shaft that clears the
pegbox. All you're trying to do is make that paint smoother to your eyes. If you sand the area where contact is made, other than
literally a smidge, you could create an intractable problem.
It seems a lot of pegs (and bridges) on "utility ouds" are perfectly functional, though rough-looking. What I've learned is that rough-looking pegs do
not a "beginner oud" make. There are instruments made for locals, that aren't very fancy, but are pretty darned good. Coming from Western standards,
where even $100 Chinese guitars are well-nigh perfect in finish, it's important to make adjustments. There are stunningly well-finished ouds made for
demanding pros, but I've run into good ouds that decidedly cried out for some clean-up finishing. And there are some mediocre ones that have been very
well-finished. This makes things triply difficult for the first-time buyer, but also offers some opportunities.
It's strange that the makers apparently don't realize how bad a first impression funky pegs can create. But better rough and functional than pretty on
a tourist oud, you know, the ones with a log of a soundboard that are nothing more than a wall decoration, not to speak of well-polished mediocrities
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Luttgutt
Oud Junkie
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Agree with Brian and Fernandraynaud!
I have 4 sukars. 3 with ebony pegs and one (model 1) with Olive pegs.
And I am VERY pleased with the olive pegs (of course, I had to do the "chalk and soap" thing first , maybe even more then the ebony pegs.
But hey, I guess the ebony pegs would be much better if I do "chalk and soap" them, except that I will not do so because I want them to look as nice
as they do 
My conclution:
1- Ebony is much better then olive if none is "chalk/soapes".
2- "chalk/soap" only olive, then they get better then ebony.
Any experience with "chalk/soap" ebony pegs?
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