fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
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The Palmyrami experience ;-)
I wanted to report on Palmyrami, since they are always selling ouds on e-bay, including Sukars, and they had gotten bad press in the past. I risked it
and ended up bidding on a strange Syrian oud.
I asked them to confirm that this was a "professional" model, and to clarify some details. They answered in a contradictory way about the details, and
said yes it was definitely professional grade. When it arrived it was (of course) not as described, and did not even have the hard case that it was
advertised with. The zippered pink thing it came in resembled a sock in too many ways  .
I politely bitched and moaned. They offered to refund every penny, including shipping. The refund would have left me oudless and not a lot richer. So
I proposed that they let me buy a Sukar at a discount, as compensation. They agreed, though only if I would accept the first one "as is". Had I paid a
lot for it, I might not have been delighted, but I thought it was fair, as I had gotten the first oud inexpensively, and it wasn't bad, though not as
described. The problem is that they have no idea how to accurately describe an instrument, and they obstinately speak in glowing and entirely
meaningless terms. Maybe they really DO sell mostly to people who turn them into flower pots? They also have one common e-mail address that several
people apparently answer to, so they appear confused, and the customer gets contradictory answers.
They let me choose one of several Model 1 Sukars by the photos, and accepted a lowball offer. It shipped immediately and arrived on UPS time. Thus in
under two weeks' time I became an official Oud Junkie, with two instruments.
So I'm happy with the overall result. The first oud needs a little work, but I think it too will turn out fine. Palmyrami don't know much about
musical instruments, and they think they know how to market them. Their photos generally do match the instruments. Their listings are flowery cut and
paste, you cannot take them literally, these are an art form in themselves. It's amazing how many ways you can rearrange the same blather, including
"pegs are varnished", "adjustment section is very smooth", "really a piece of art", and my favorite "make sure to get it", that applies sometimes to
the certificate of authenticity, sometimes to the oud, and sometimes just hangs there with no obvious meaning. But Palmyrami are not alone in the "oud
listing as comic poetry" field.
They did their best. They accepted my strong objections and we worked it out. They were professional and courteous. Both instruments arrived precisely
on time, so well packed it took a long time to unwrap them. I would guess these were never opened in the US, and so they must get the photos (and
maybe most of the "description") directly from their sources as well, and this explains a lot of the "disconnect": they don't seem to really
understand what's in the box, they can only paraphrase what their suppliers tell them. Someone previously suggested they had swapped out a string, and
obviously that's way out of their league if they don't even open the packing (which is just as well). They recently offered an oud with photos showing
the face of a Syrian, and the back of a floating bridge Iraqi, and they didn't think it was strange. It seems they sometimes show previous photos of
the same model, and update them when they receive the actual instrument with its photos. Strange stuff, but how else to explain that the exact oud I
held in my hands, down to the little defect on the bowl, was shown as a "Buy It Now" item 3 weeks out? But what I got matched the photos exactly. My
Model 1 Sukar is marvelous, it is one of those lucky find "diamonds in the rough", though I think most inexpensive Sukars are. If you know something
about ouds, fully understand the bizarre constraints, and enter into a polite dialogue with them, Palmyrami can be a good source. 
[file]11000[/file]
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Franck
Oud Junkie
Posts: 145
Registered: 8-21-2007
Location: Montréal, Québec
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I bought one ''Sukar'' oud from them also, it was advertised as a professional model, handmade and richly decorated. Now, the price was ridiculous
(150$) and I said to myself what the hell, let's give it a try... Of course it came out as an unplayable piece of junk with a broken peg box... But
they refunded me and said they would take the oud back, they were supposed to send somebody to pick it up. Anyway, they must have thought that the
cost of picking the instrument up was overly expensive and they I never heard from them again!
I also purchased a hard case from Palmyrami that came with broken latches (it was the first model with cheap latches, now they fixed it up with better
ones), so I contacted them again and, after many messages, them finally sent me a doumbek as compensation.
All our communications were very courteous and they are not the kind to let you down unsatisfied, but the thing is they sell crap and make it look
like gold. Some of their products are good but, like anywhere, ya have to pay the price.
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
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Mood: m'Oudy
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I'd be curious to hear more stories. Anyone?
Your experience, Franck, agrees with the evidence: they don't KNOW what they are selling, as they don't open the packing. If you're the gambling
bargain hunter type, it's up to you to deduce what they might have in that mystery box. OF COURSE the description is mostly nonsense, but buried in
there, and in the photos, are clues as to what it might be. If you fish out an old shoe, they will work with you and (at least lately) they don't
abandon you. In the end you too came out OK. I understand that some people might not find this lottery a good way to buy an oud, it's a far cry from
some other vendors who know exactly what they are selling and how much they can try to squeeze. I'm convinced there is no intent to defraud on their
part. Of course they make everything sound like gold. If someone is happy with a cheap clunker, why shouldn't they believe it's "a piece of art"?
How long ago was your "Sukar" misadventure? As of this month anyway, they do know which boxes contain a Sukar, and that's good enough for me. From the
common thorough packing on two very different ouds, with an indentifier written with the same type marker, they must have a partner in Syria who buys
them and packs them, this must be the guy who has the "antiques" appraised. I know in the past they've been far less responsible. So as long as they
are fair now and stand behind what they send out (sight unseen), they're a viable source in my book. When you think about it, it's not all that
different from buying a boxed instrument in Cairo or Damascus, like Forest Gump used to say, you never know what you'll get. My wife used to buy lots
of jeans in Istambul, and sometimes they looked good, but on closer examination it turned out each pair had only one leg. It all boils down to whether
the vendor will work with you when there's a problem. If we hear they've screwed someone again, we'll cross them off, but good!
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Franck
Oud Junkie
Posts: 145
Registered: 8-21-2007
Location: Montréal, Québec
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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My experience happened about 2 years ago. Since then I prefer (and strongly recommend) to buy musical instruments only when one can try it. Being a
lutemaker myself I only did this to try my luck, but after losing money, I won't repeat the same mistake again. One should save money to buy from
professional makers like Ismail Fencioğlu, Wissam Joubran or Faruk Türünz to name only a few.
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
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Mood: m'Oudy
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Well, of course, it's ideal if you can afford it. Of course, that is the simple and most effective way to buy a good instrument.
It's the same with all instruments, but my interest is always to find that elusive Rolls at a Ford price, and learn as much as possible. I found
Palmyrami useful in that endeavor, as they have apparently learned (since 2 years ago) to stand behind what they ship. My Sukar Rolls can use a little
cosmetic enhancement, but it's a Rolls nonetheless.
It happens I got two instruments, one excellent and one quite decent, for less than the price of a single Luthier's "beginner oud". In the process, as
well as getting very involved in his forum, I've learned a lot, including how to upgrade the "decent" one. And that is priceless.
If I had all the money in the world, I wouldn't have known enough, when I was starting out, to do anything but put myself at the mercy of a luthier. I
would have likely gotten a very good instrument at a commensurate price, but I wouldn't have learned 1/10 of what I know now. I was VERY motivated and
stressed during that adventure. No gain without strain. I'm not sure I can explain it, but it's like diving into the jungle and wrenching an
instrument from the thickets, having to quickly learn what matters and what doesn't, the types of wood, the design, the measurements, to even be able
to recognize problems and negotiate. Just walking in and dropping a lot of money for what I'm told is good doesn't appeal to me. To each his own
approach.
And frankly, now, if I had all the money in the world, I wouldn't ever give up that Sukar, though I might pick up an additional luthier's beauty or
two  (as may befall me yet...). And that "decent" oud? it was my first love,
and I love it dearly, I know it inside out, and will do everything I can to let it be as good as it can be
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Christian1095
Oud Junkie
Posts: 454
Registered: 4-29-2008
Location: North Carolina, USA
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Mood: No Mood
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I've bought two from them.... One electric and one low end model ($400) -- Both were good experiances.
Chris Walters
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
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Very strange, Palmyrami is getting more into selling expensive antique ouds. This must be their partner in Syria picking them out, but it's still very
strange, considering they never seem to open the boxes they pass on.
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coyootie
Oud Addict
Posts: 32
Registered: 11-22-2005
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very bad sellers!
I wouldn't dream of buying instruments from these goofballs. Their packing is atrocious. I had big problems with them twice on Syrian furniture I'd
bought.Their communications were slow, awful, also dishonest and devious.
You are taking a serious crapshoot if you transact anything with them. it may work out but the chances are high that it won't.
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Christian1095
Oud Junkie
Posts: 454
Registered: 4-29-2008
Location: North Carolina, USA
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Mood: No Mood
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For both of the ouds I purchased, they were both extremely well packed... Case wrapped in foam inside a sturdy cardboard box.
Chris Walters
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
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I dunno, Coyootie, maybe they have changed since your experience. My two ouds came so well packed I cannot imagine doing it better. An outer box, then
lots of cardboard and styrofoam nestling a mummy of oud (in case) wrapped in lots of bubblewrap and foam. You would have to run a steamroller over the
box to damage it. Maybe they've learned a lesson.
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I don't have any monetary (or other) interest in this, but fairness cuts both ways. If a vendor can provide instruments to us at a decent price, it's
worth knowing EXACTLY what we might expect.
It's like the ouds that are made for the local market, and are not finished to Western standards. Saying they are total junk and that the people who
sell them are dishonest is not accurate either. You can dispute claims made in a listing, and that's exactly what I did. If the vendor works with you,
he's not "dishonest and devious".
The glorification of one's offerings is endemic to the bazaar. Some merchants really don't have a good idea of what's in the box, or fully appreciate
the subtle difference between a coffee table, a dumbek and an oud. Wood is wood. I'll grant you these guys carry it pretty far, and of course buying
an expensive "antique" under these circumstances is pretty silly. You can argue that they should know more, OK, but then again are you willing to pay
for a greater level of expertise, repacking, etc?
I'm not the only one who's happy with what they got from Palmyrami. I think we know what we're up against. And if we hear a single contemporary tale
of outright deceit, of course they're history.
If you have specific complaints, it's nice to say exactly what happened, so people can make an informed decision.
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Christian1095
Oud Junkie
Posts: 454
Registered: 4-29-2008
Location: North Carolina, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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The packing job on the two ouds that I bought looked the same.
I agree, I don't think they know anything about instruments... but they have a few things going for them....
1. Unless you're buying an oud from someone on the forum... They're pretty much the only source for good/afordable ouds in the States... There just
isn't anyone else importing ouds into the country that are worth anything. So your options are to either buy an oud from someone on the board (I
bought my first real oud from SamirCanada), Get one imported from Egypt or Israel, or take your chances on Ebay (which isn't a bad way to shop... but
you just don't know what you're going to get unless you really know your stuff)
2. Sukkar ouds are good ouds... Not fabulous... but good, solid instruments. I think someone on the boards described them as the Honda of ouds.
They are also consistently good ouds. I have two accoustics and both are solid instruments. The electric they offer is probably the only REAL
alternative unless you want to drop $1,000+ on a Najarian -- Nobody on the board is willing to own up to owning a Saber electric oud
3. You can get one of thier ouds for a pretty cheap price. Compare what most foks pay for a Sukkar oud (mine range from $500-$800) and what they'll
pay for a Ghadban or Shehata oud.
4. Pay these guys through paypal or by credit card so that if there is a dispute, you have a chance to get your money back if there is a problem.
It's the seller's job to get the merchandise to you in good shape. If not, then you initiate a chargeback because the mechandise is "not as
described" -- I wish I had known about that when I bought a Hamido oud off of Ebay. In the example above it looks like they've gotten this clue and
are now working to make the customer happy.
All that being said, there are a few major criticisms....
1. You never REALLY know who you're dealing with on the other end of the email to Michigan.
2. Thier descriptions are a complete and utter joke. ie, "make sure to get one today"
3. They have had problems in the past.... But I haven't heard of anyone in the US having a negative experiance (though I think they probably have no
experiance about shipping overseas....)
Chris Walters
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
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<<2. Thier descriptions are a complete and utter joke. ie, "make sure to get one today">>
No, it's even better, it's "Make sure to get it" tacked on to random phrases chopped up and pasted together out of the same boiler plate set. They
apparently got that alphabet soup from their agent in Syria and in spite of admitting to inaccuracies on this forum, like the varnished pegs, they
continue to use it. That perhaps is the most disturbing detail, that they don't care how absurd it is. They worked things out with me regarding my
complaints on an oud's inaccurate description, yet they now show the same oud again with the same nonsense description (minus the promise of a hard
case). It's all just wood to them. Sell sealed boxes, deal with the occasional complainer. Actually it makes sense.
I should add that the compromise we worked out was OK because I had not paid very much for the first oud. If I had paid a lot of money for it,
accepting it as is in spite of inaccuracies in both the listing and in their replies to my explicit questions, would not have been acceptable. But I
had the feeling there was always room to negotiate anyway. A lot probably has to do with whether you can strike up a rapport, but they sure weren't
going to leave an unhappy customer on the loose. As Christian said, they do offer some OK random ouds at auction, and (especially) Sukar ouds at a
price that's attractive, so as long as they treat any complaints fairly, I'll continue to cautiously do business with them.
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jkndrkn
Oud Addict
Posts: 37
Registered: 9-6-2009
Location: Gainesville, FL, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Hey, I purchased an instrument from Palyrami recently.
I can confirm that their customer service skills are quite lacking and that their packaging is solid bordering on excessive. I'm overall happy with my
purchase, though. They surprised me by accepting a low-ball offer on a Sukar Model 1 Oud.
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