jkndrkn
Oud Addict
Posts: 37
Registered: 9-6-2009
Location: Gainesville, FL, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Tuning an Arabic-Style Syrian Oud using Daniel Mari Arabic Strings
Hi there,
I just purchased an Syrian Sukar Model 1 Oud and purchased these Daniel Mari Arabic Oud strings: http://www.ostriemusicsupplies.com/marioud-ar.htm
I'm looking into six-course Oud Arabic tunings, and it seems that these tunings come up most often:
1) C F A D G C
2) D G A D G C
Questions:
1) Can I achieve these tunings using the Daniel Mari Arabic strings?
2) I do not want to over-tension these strings. Can I assume that the low C in tuning one is the C two octaves below middle C? This would be the same
pitch to which the lowest note on the cello is tuned. I'm assuming that the high C is middle C?
3) Is it safe to alternate between these two tunings? Is there a risk that tuning up to tuning #2 would over-stretch these strings or make them not
resonate properly? Are there specific gauges for each of these tunings?
|
|
|
Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 2916
Registered: 1-30-2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Member Is Offline
Mood: Stringish
|
|
Either of those tunings should be fine. Sukar's ouds are pretty sturdy.
Changing the C to D and back is not a problem.
Depending on how sharply your nut is cut, you could wear out the F/G strings faster if you change the tuning all the time, but otherwise I wouldn't
worry about it.
|
|
|
Greg
Administrator
Posts: 926
Registered: 7-22-2004
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Member Is Offline
Mood: Serene
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by jkndrkn  | 2) I do not want to over-tension these strings. Can I assume that the low C in tuning one is the C two octaves below middle C? This would be the same
pitch to which the lowest note on the cello is tuned. I'm assuming that the high C is middle C?
|
Try using the midi files from here:
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=2420#pid148...
Follow those tunings and you can then be confident you are in the correct octave for each of the strings (for CFADGC)
Regards,
Greg
|
|
|
katakofka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 811
Registered: 1-24-2008
Location: Cleveland
Member Is Offline
Mood: Gypsy
|
|
oud notes in frequency values
|
|
|
jkndrkn
Oud Addict
Posts: 37
Registered: 9-6-2009
Location: Gainesville, FL, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Very helpful. Thank you, all. I'm able to confidently approach the correct pitches.
Related question: without the availability of fine-tuners as on a violin or cello, how do you zero in your pitches precisely? I feel like the string
catches behind the nut and resists smooth tuning up and tuning down into pitch. My Sukar Model 1 has a bone nut with very shallow but hard-edge
grooves that don't quite match the width of the strings. On the cello, I often use pencil graphite to lubricate the nut grooves, but this does not
seem to help on my Oud.
Also, in general, how stable is Oud tuning? It seems that with the large amount of strings, peg-style tuners, and low string tension it might be
difficult to keep and Oud in tune during a session.
|
|
|
Christian1095
Oud Junkie
Posts: 454
Registered: 4-29-2008
Location: North Carolina, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
In session, I don't have a problem.... As they set between playings (like a day) you'll have to retune slightly... Also, if you do have a problem
with it slipping, try peg dope for Violins.... I put some on when I change strings and haven't had any problems with any of my ouds...
Chris Walters
|
|
|
fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
|
|
Hi, JD,
Be careful with peg dope. There are lots of ways to make things worse and only a few to make them better. There are several issues here.
The best thing to use on pegs (according to a lot of very experienced and pragmatic people) is a very very dry piece of soap, and some ordinary
blackboard chalk. Start with very little of each. The idea is to have a little lubrication, and the chalk sort of locks it after you come to rest. You
might find the pegs as they ship are better than you think, and if you put too much soap on, you might find they won't hold an will keep slipping
until you clean all that stuff off and start over. So go slow. Peg dope has been said to smooth the holes too much, and I have never tried it.
Violin/viola pegs have a totally different taper, like 25 to 30 to 1, where lute and oud pegs are more like 15 to 1, and it's normal to have to push
them in frequently as you tune.
On the nut, better you don't mess with it immediately until you've had a chance to look at some other ouds. There are lots of ways to do the notching.
If the string "catches" it's a little difficult but you can find a very close position. If you mess up the notching, it can make it eternally buzz.
I have one oud with a nut with deep notches, and what happens is the string's outer winding is immobilized, and the inner core stretches as you tune.
Someone might say the nut is smoother, but that's not at all what's happening. It's a little weird, but it works. If you want the whole string to
slide, pencil graphite helps a bit. Some people put flour on the string to make it like a smooth string. The main thing is take it easy, it's no big
deal, give yourself a little time before you make changes on the nut.
Stretch the strings back and forth in a plane parallel to the soundboard so as not to stress the bridge. After a day or three they will become stable
enough so you barely need to touch up the tuning every day. But, yeah, you need a little nudge on the smooth nylons several times a day if you want
them spot on within 2-5 cents as I do for recording. Most people don't bother, after they stabilize it will surprisingly hold tuning well enough with
a touch up once a day.
On tuning method, obviously a little chromatic tuner is very helpful.
On the diffs on the bass strings, this is non-critical, B or C or D is OK on a 0.041". My Model 1 came with a 0.051" on the bottom, so clearly you
have a lot of slack with a 0.041" like come in the Mari set. That Mari bottom string is a little short, you might have to tie a little bead on the end
instead of a proper loop around the bridge. Works OK.
The Mari Arabic strings are funny in that the top 2 courses are a little heavy, 0.026" and 0.032" on the plain nylons, but it's OK. I like their
Turkish set that comes a tad lighter 0.025" and 0.028". Needless to say, it's the gauges that count, not the "turkish" or "arabic" labels. In other
courses the Mari Turkish set is the same gauges as the Arabic, but you get two bass strings and they are maybe 0.042" rather than 0.040", it's rather
within the measurement error. You can mike to within 0.0001", but no strings are perfectly even along their length. The only reliably repeatable
difference between the sets is that second course being 0.032" on the Arabic and 0.028" on the Turkish.
You might find that your Model 1 came with 0.020" on the top course, mine did. If you like those light strings, just keep the pair that came on the
top (cc) course for now and order a pair of "mumtaz" 0.020" from Bill Ostrie for $0.75 to replace them. Use the normally topmost 0.026" for the gg
course, then use the remainder wound strings as is. That will give you a top-light set. If it's too light, switch to the normal 0.026" for the cc
course. I always order the $0.75 Mumtaz "course 0" 0.020" strings with a set for that flexibility.
Have fun!
|
|
|
fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
|
|
One more note.
re: nut
I have a wood nut, and as you see, wood or bone, the substance it's made of is not the determining factor. There are many. Even the strings rubbing on
each other in the pegbox. Short of reshaping the notches (that's delicate), I was able to get a lot smoother tuning by rubbing the same piece of very
ancient dry soap that I use on pegs, on the strings at that point and the nut notches, and "working" the tuning. Helped more than graphite. On two
courses it made it completely better, on the others it still "clicks" a bit, but the "jump" is a lot smaller. It's quite manageable.
Re: tuning
Almost everyone on Arabic ouds uses cc gg DD AA for the top 4 courses. On the bottom two courses people often tune to the Maqam they are playing in,
though the most common default is FF C.
I personally like EE B because it's all in fourths/fifths like on a 6 string fretless bass, or EE C if I'm playing in a C-based maqam. In any case the
strings and the oud won't mind a semitone up or down.
Some people shift everything up a 4th, which is what the 0.020" "mumtaz" strings are "officially" for, so you can tune the treblemost strings to ff,
for "solo players", in which case you discard the thickest string. The tuning is then ff cc gg DD AA FF. Forget that for now).
|
|
|
jkndrkn
Oud Addict
Posts: 37
Registered: 9-6-2009
Location: Gainesville, FL, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Yeah, I've run into the ff cc gg DD AA FF tuning. I realized it could be easily modified to ee bb gg DD AA EE to make the Oud very guitarist-friendly.
I've run into mentions of using soap in pegs. Did not consider its possible usefulness in the nut.
I'll do as you say and let the strings settle in before I consider making changes to the nut.
Why would you want to go to lighter gauges on the top strings? I feel that the instrument already has very low string tension and that even lower
string tension would make it difficult to play clean-sounding tremolos.
Somewhat related question. What is your preferred by-ear tuning method in cc gg DD AA FF C tuning?
I've settled into the following:
1. Tune C to a tuner. (My C has especially bad "clicking" and "jumping", so this often takes a while).
2. Tune gg to the C
3. Tune cc to the gg and C
4. Tune DD to gg
5. Tune AA to DD
6. Tune FF to C
This method words reliably for the C, gg, and cc courses, but I'm afraid I might be introducing too great a drift in pitches in the AA and DD courses.
Also, the low string tension in the C and FF make me feel as if I can't quite hear the strings ringing clearly together, but maybe that's just because
I'm used to playing higher-tension string instruments.
Thanks again for your help!
|
|
|
Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 2916
Registered: 1-30-2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Member Is Offline
Mood: Stringish
|
|
Just a suggestion on the tuning: most Arab musicians tune with "G" as the reference, and all pure 4ths. Obviously if you tune all the strings to a
tuner, it doesn't matter what pitch you start with, but if you're doing pure fourths, then everyone should use the same reference pitch.
My approach: 2nd course G to a tuner, then tune the fourths pure for the 1st and 3rd courses. tune the 4th course to the 3rd. Then I tune the low C
to the G (pure 5th, this is more reliable in my experience than tuning it to the high C). Finally tune the 5th course F to the C. Then double check
everything, as some strings may have drifted slightly.
|
|
|
David.B
Oud Junkie
Posts: 640
Registered: 9-5-2009
Location: France
Member Is Offline
Mood: Renaissance
|
|
Thanks Brian for the tip, I'll remember the way you tune your oud with pure fourths... Right now I use a tuner for all strings and I prefer to start
with the high c and finish with the low C, when I start "upside down" there are 100 % of chance the oud doesn't keep the tune at the end of the job :
because the lower courses are laid on the pegs of the higher ones and they inevitably move. Now I realize your way is the perfect one the keep the
tune from the beginning of the job on the 2nd course G to the end on the last 5th course F, it follows the implantation of the pegs.
jkndrkn I've got the same problem as you when you tune the low C to a tuner, why don't you anticipate the clicking and jumping ? When the string is a
little too sharp I lift it about the middle and when it's a little too flat I push the string with my finger just behind the nut : it equilibrates the
tension all along the string and sometimes it's enough. And when it's not, I give to the peg a good 1/2 turn to move around C# and back to the C in
one shot !
|
|
|
fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
|
|
John David,
re: tension
On the top courses it's very hard to match the rich sonority of the wound strings of the lower courses. I find that lighter tension approximates it
better, with really tight nylon it sounds quite different. But 0.020" is a little TOO light, and 0.026 is a little too heavy. At the moment I use the
0.025" and 0.028" that come in the Mari Turkish set.
|
|
|
David.B
Oud Junkie
Posts: 640
Registered: 9-5-2009
Location: France
Member Is Offline
Mood: Renaissance
|
|
I've got some tension... in my life, but if I keep playing oud I'll try Daniel Mari's strings. I read so many good comments about this brand and I'm
curious to test it !
|
|
|
fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
|
|
I just got some more Daniel Mari strings, "Turkish". This time the gauges of the nylon plains are 0.022 and 0.027, just fine with me, but a little
different from the previous batch (was 0.025, 0.028). The Mari Arabic set started with 0.026, 0.032, quite a bit stiffer. Then come wound 0.024,
0.028, 0.032, 0.041 +/- 0.001, on all sets.
That's almost exactly what the D'Addarios and the LaBella OU80 offer. The GHS is a touch heavier on the gg strings, 0.029, more like the Mari Arabic,
but its cc is also 0.022, and the rest is very close.
It bears repeating that a Turkish oud being tuned a bit higher than an Arabic, but on a bit shorter scale, it's a wash. Only the gauges are relevant
anyway. The manufacturers like Aquila, that provide mystery sets designed for specific tunings, or Thomastik surprisingly providing no technical data,
should be whined at.
So it's possible to specific a sort of generic oud set for standard scale and tunings that should work for Arabic and Turkish ouds, as a point of
departure for customizing, something like:
1st 0.022 plain (arabic cc)
2nd 0.028 plain (arabic gg)
3rd 0.024 wound (arabic DD)
4th 0.029 wound (arabic AA)
5th 0.034 wound (arabic FF)
6th 0.042 wound (arabic C)
If someone who is sure of the material densities could calculate tensions and correct this table for equal tensions, that would be great.
The point is just to have a rough reference, so you don't try to tune a 0.028 nylon to cc without knowing that's going to be a bit tense.
A 0.050 bass string is great, but expensive to make, hence seldom seen. On the latest Mari Turkish sets the bass course is similarly single now
instead of double.
The Mari wound strings are really luscious. The nylons are fine, mercifully uneventful, and feel nicer to me a little thinner, as in their "Turkish"
set, but to each his own.
|
|
|
jkndrkn
Oud Addict
Posts: 37
Registered: 9-6-2009
Location: Gainesville, FL, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
My inclination would be to have slightly more string tension, especially on the bass courses. However, the low string tension on the Oud, I'm finding,
is integral to its tone and expressiveness. Still, I sometimes yearn for the assertiveness and increased sustain of slightly stiffer bass courses.
|
|
|
fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
|
|
Personally I like the low tension feel, and sound. I also think of the bottom courses as part of the range, not just drones, so I like tuning them EE
B.
If you like a stiffer bass, the fact that a Sukar Model 1 was shipped with a 0.051" bottom string means it can handle it, unless of course we want to
think Palmyrami swapped a string. Not likely. So that's a start.
There are string tension formulas, and Matthias' tables of tension for specific strings, and it's important to get into this if you want to customize
your stringing. The shear tension that a standard face-glued bridge can take is the limiting factor, and a standard oud is not designed for big
tensions. A floating bridge oud obviously can handle more (but might sound muted with too much).
The tension on a string can be calculated from the pitch, the string gauge, the scale length and the string material's density. You will find that
some of Matthias' tables have serious errors, but if you have an engineering streak you can backtrack and find them, then go from there, with a bit of
reading, and arrive at a working sense of how much tension changes with the gauges and materials you might use, and then come up with some plausibly
safe choices. In addition to the 0.051" on the bottom, my Model 1 came with 0.033 on the (double) 5th course. Maybe the way to go is to use a heavier
single string on the 5th course for a clear tone without excess tension on the bridge, perhaps a single 0.042?
Also once you have the formulas figured out, you could experiment with different materials on those bass strings, no reason to be limited to oud
strings if you want a different sound on the drone, as long as you don't overdo the total tension?
|
|
|
|
![[*]](images/xmbprobrown/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
