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fernandraynaud
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The amazing sustain of a coated neck
To prevent strings wearing the fingerboard on my Sukar Model 1, I did what I've done on my fretless basses, namely put on a few coats of Tung Oil. The
stuff sets to a pretty hard surface that can be made more or less glossy, and on basses anyway, improves the sustain a little. It's a natural polymer,
a bit like the linseed oil used on rifle stocks, but with its own properties. Formsby's "glossy" works well and sets in under 24 hrs.
I was amazed at how much it enhances the sustain on the oud, after I was done with the sanding and installed strings. Here is a very short
before and after video with decent sound quality. No effects are used: the sound is just the natural sustain and sympathetics. The Canon
camera's mics are used, closer in the second case. Yes, new (Mari) strings were used.
I do like the result. I used a lighter coating on another oud with a more classical "Arabic" sound. It also enhanced that instrument's sustain and
personality -- a lot.
It's easy to control the timbre change by making the Tung surface more or less thick and glossy with sandpaper, steel wool, etc. The coating can be
touched up as needed, as the strings wear it, and it is (almost completely) removable by re-softening it with liquid Tung Oil and rubbing it off.
The appearance ranges from matte-invisible to glassy. I think it's a bit of a "lucky discovery", hence my enthusiasm.  Has anyone tried any (other?) finishes on the fingerboard? On the inside of the bowl?
Comments?
Before & after Tung, Sukar Model 1, Windows Media 9 Video
[file]11381[/file]
Before final sandings
[file]11382[/file]
Final look
[file]11379[/file]
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David.B
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Interesting and complete post !
We can ear a big difference ! I used to put some linseed oil at each time I installed new strings, not so much effects but it made the wood a little
bit swell in the cavity under the position of the fingers the most used. I stopped because my oudmaker told me it's better to put none liquid product
on the oud and only use a dry cloth to clean it...
By the way, it seems the last Model 1 has a new fingerboard in comparison of mine (2001). Does the fingerboard have a thin coat of varnish like on my
Model 8 (2007) when it comes out of the workshop ? Should I sand it if I want to put some Tung oil on it (I guess yes) ?
Thanks for sharing : really didactic 
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fernandraynaud
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Well, your oudmaster may be right, but I'm a big believer in reversible madness, which is why I mention how you can remove the coating. It's a
modification, it isn't the same thing as cleaning/oiling the wood.
The Sukar fingerboard varnish is apparently shellac, I rubbed it off with an alcohol-soaked rag, then fine sanded the entire length from nut to
soundhole, using masking tape to protect the soundboard. Then rubbed in a first Tung layer, and painted on additional coats delicately with a small
brush, 4 hours to set between light coats under bright lights, then heavier coats set overnight. Wear gloves. A total of 5 coats, then overnight and
final sanding to an even semi-matte. It's hard to explain, but it FEELS so nice and flat to finger on, it's silky, like it sounds, like the texture
looks!
[file]11415[/file]
Formsby's Glossy apparently has Japan Dryer in it as even thick coats of it can set overnight. I've seen fat layers of some other Tung Oil take days
to fully harden, and it's impossible to find out exactly what's in whose formulation!
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fernandraynaud
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Oh, my God! Allah is great!
I just cannot BELIEVE the sound, power and playability on this Sukar. The strings are starting to play themselves! I've been playing it hard, a lot,
and I just cannot believe the resonance, it's like the whole instrument is shaking on every note I play, and the next note starts to play itself
before I reach it. Never seen anything like it, for what it's worth. Awesome.
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jdowning
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If smoothness and hardness of the wooden fingerboard surface accounts for such a dramatic increase in the sustain and amplitude of string vibration
perhaps an even smoother, harder fingerboard surface like bone, metal or some appropriate synthetic material might be even better? The use of ivory
and tortoiseshell veneer as fingerboard materials - although out of the question today - were employed in the past.
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fernandraynaud
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Yes, but there is a limit. On fretless bass and guitar glass and metal has been tried. It sounds and feels "foreign". For a really integral resonance,
I'm not sure how best to word this, a sort of impedance match between all the parts is necessary.
Metal and glass will cause a very bright tone, but it doesn't couple back as well into the loop which consists of soundboard, strings, fingerboard,
neck, etc. Epoxy and CYA are better than that, but still too hard. When I first tried Tung Oil, I thought ho-hum, nice, and THEN it fully set -- Wow!
into a polymer with an acoustic impedance much like hardwood, and the impedance match was close to perfect, all the way around the loop. That's the
best way I can comprehend it. A fretless bass is very heavy, the acoustic coupling is not as dominant. On the oud, because of the light construction
and great resonance, it's nothing short of mindblowing. Pluck the string, and the vibration keeps on going, nudge it with a little vibrato and it's
like pushing a swing in sync, it keeps getting stronger. Slide your finger up the neck and the next note is practically waiting for you. Hard to
describe.
I would imagine ivory and tortoiseshell might also be very good, but another big advantage of Tung Oil is that the first layer soaks into the wood,
eliminating a discontinuity, making the fingerboard conduct, rather than placing a smooth but distinct surface on top of it. It's important to both
soak Tung Oil into the wood, sort of "plasticizing" it, and then add a thick enough series of coats to create a perfectly smooth and hard "petrified
wood" flight deck. And it's still the same wood, it feels silky-organic-woody!
The other oud I tried it on got a much thinner coating, its tone was enhanced, but it's too much hassle now to take the strings off and add coats to
see how far one can take it. I'm going to be reworking a third one, and that will be a great test as it's not as resonant an oud as the Sukar, and I'm
going to try to really pull every bit of tone and sustain out of it.
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Alan-TX
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Since you have a another test in mind I wanted to suggest changing the test parameters a little to better judge how much the change in sound is due to
the neck treatment. Certainly there was a change but just how was due to new strings is unknown.
If you can use the same string set for the before and after recordings.
Ideally someone other than you who is unfamilar as to why the test is being done would play the samples. But unless you have another oud player
hanging around....
For fun when you post the recordings here do not say which one is the before and which one is the after. Do the reveal a week or so later after a few
people post which ones they think are before and after. If you can, just post audio and not the video. Make sure the names of the sound files are non
descript <g>
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fernandraynaud
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A double-blind buff, eh? The hard part is wasting a set of strings in the name of science, I don't think putting them on the second time is the same.
Of course the strings are the biggest unmeasured factor. I wasn't planning an experiment, I never expected anything quite as dramatic!
There's one more important detail that suggests the new strings are not the main thing that's going on, and that is the way the neck vibrates only
when notes are "fretted". The Sukar was always very "live", but after the fingerboard treatment the neck vibrates much more, it's totally part of "the
loop", and it wasn't like that. Open strings sound good but don't do that "magic thing" , either, I am sure, as I'm playing it it's different.
I'll see how far I can carry the experiment for doubting Thomases.
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Brian Prunka
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Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud  | A double-blind buff, eh? The hard part is wasting a set of strings in the name of science, I don't think putting them on the second time is the same.
Of course the strings are the biggest unmeasured factor. I wasn't planning an experiment, I never expected anything quite as dramatic!
There's one more important detail that suggests the new strings are not the main thing that's going on, and that is the way the neck vibrates only
when notes are "fretted". The Sukar was always very "live", but after the fingerboard treatment the neck vibrates much more, it's totally part of "the
loop", and it wasn't like that. Open strings sound good but don't do that "magic thing" , either, I am sure, as I'm playing it it's different.
I'll see how far I can carry the experiment for doubting Thomases.
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This is very interesting. I'm curious what our Dr. Oud thinks of this.
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Alan-TX
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No offense was meant so I hope none was taken. I find testing methods interesting and enjoyed this post.
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SamirCanada
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The only treatment I apply to my fingerboards is lemon oil. I usually have the fingerboard sanded down to something to 400 grit and apply some lemon
oil.
I think that thick finishes might be nice and even at first but they tend to wear under the wound strings which may not be of any noticeable
consequence on a bass but on the oud it definetly can cause some buzzing. Let us know in a few weeks.
That being said, I use a mac so I cant see the video you have posted. However I suspect that any sound change might be more due to the new strings
then the new finish on the fingerboard. However, I can see how the feel of the fingerboard could have improved after the application.
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David.B
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Yes Samir I wonder about the same thing : the space between fingerboard and strings is reduced and might make some buzzing, this problem is supposed
to be solved by a little sanding before and after...
fernandraynaud, I also wonder if it's not too slippery, especially with the first course in the high register ?
I'm not sure the new strings have a big impact : you always need about 1 week to get a good sound with a new set (and it's colorful and warm only
after a few months) !
If I take time to try with my old model 1 I'll give you some feedback too.
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fernandraynaud
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Alan, no offense taken of course.
I'll try to either isolate the sound on that video, or make an audio-only example from previous recordings vs. current state. But I don't have time
right now to extract totally scientific A/Bs, sorry I really wasn't set up to document the unexpected.
The new strings and the fact I lowered the action a hair with the butterfly nut are serious candidates for explaining away at least part of the effect
of the Tung coating. But I'm pretty darned sure at least a part of it is as described and due to the coating.
There was a shellac layer on the neck when I got the Model 1. I wore through that at the C as expected in about 2 weeks of intense 5 hour a day
playing. That, in fact, started buzzing, the shellac was sort of "peeling" around the "trench".
I am prepared to periodically lay on some more Tung oil, you just gently wipe on another layer and it merges with the previous ones and evens out any
wear. On my basses it turns out not to be needed often at all. On my 4 string short scale fretless bass there's a wear spot over a (hard) MOP inlay
where the Tung layer seems to be needing some help now, it's been over a year! BTW, the way I got into this on the bass was because the timbre on that
bass was so different on wood and on those stupid inlays, so I was looking for a way to even it out, as well as protect the rosewood. It turned out to
do both very well.
We'll see how it wears on the oud. It's no big deal to add a layer, it should be possible to just loosen the strings, raise them over the fingerboard,
wipe and let it set in bright artificial light overnight, then barely wipe it with 600 sandpaper. I don't fully understand everything about this
stuff, the re-dissolving of the polymer that has set, the effect of heat, light, etc etc.
The wear behavior is very different from the micro-peeling you get with shellac. I wouldn't expect buzzing until the "trenching" gets serious, and the
whole idea is to never let it get that far.
David, no, it's not slippery, you sand it with 600 to a matte finish and it feels silkier than raw wood, but not slippery at all. It's strange stuff,
even when glossy it's not slippery. If your old Model 1 has a little wear, it's a chance to make it perfectly flat. You can't fill in deep "trenches",
but you can even out little micro-ruts. Also you can build up the edges a little as you brush on layers, then as you sand it level it makes it a bit
like an aircraft carrier deck, the flat surface a fraction of a millimeter wider, and that feels really nice. But I've never made it thick enough to
measurably reduce the distance to the strings, we're still in the realm of a coating, a 0.025" top cc string is huge compared to the thickness of the
"TungStoffe".
Of course I hope somebody else tries it. I'll report as I find out more as well.
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fernandraynaud
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Two Months' playing on Tung-coated neck
OK, this has been a good test, there were some doubters. The sustain is still amazing, and the wear is as expected.
Under note Rast, the original varnish was peeling away within 2 weeks of intense playing and the wood was starting to wear. With the Tung oil, after
two months of heavy playing you can't see any wear to the naked eye,
[file]12422[/file]
but if you put the light just so and blow up the picture, you can see slight string "snake marks" as I get on my basses.
[file]12424[/file]
This is so shallow your fingernails even can't detect it, and a wipe of tung oil when changing strings blends it in and strengthens the coating.
I'm very happy with these results and can recommend Tung oil coating in good conscience for an oud's fingerboard, especially on the softer woods. The
fingerboard's wood is protected, the feel is very good, and as a bonus the sustain is increased.
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David.B
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Convinced !
Thanks for the photos... I'm still waiting for a quiet moment to go and buy some tung oil and I'll do the same on my mod. 1. If I feel it good I'll do
it on my mod.8 next.
Just a little info : Where would you class walnut tree, to me maple is really soft and I guess ebony is the harder ?
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Aymara
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The best (hardest) wood for fingerboards are ebony and rosewood ... used for a loooong time on guitars and basses.
BTW ... my guitar has an ebony fretboard too and I was always satisfied to care for it with good furniture polish, when changing strings.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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FLIPAX
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| Quote: Originally posted by Aymara |
BTW ... my guitar has an ebony fretboard too and I was always satisfied to care for it with good furniture polish, when changing strings.
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Hey Chris!
What is the effect of the polished ebony? coz I never polished my ebony fretboard on my guitar. Only Clean It with Lemon Oil or Lighter fluid.
If It is different fingerboard material like tony in his oud will be okay.
I dont know if many used polish in their Oud's ebony Fingerboard.
Every time I Hear The Oud, I fall into a Deep Long Trance of Perpetual Bliss!
"Naseem Al Rooh"
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Sazi
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For David.B, and anyone else interested in the properties of various timbers...
http://www.woodbin.com/ref/wood/index.htm
Covers hardness, density, elasticity, use etc.
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Aymara
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The result is very similar to using furniture polish, which cleans and protects the wood and prevents it from drying out.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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fernandraynaud
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On fretted instruments, the string sounds between the fret and the bridge. The fingerboard has almost no effect, and doesn't even significantly wear.
You just polish and clean it. On unfretted instruments the string vibrates between the fingerboard, the finger that's pressing it, and the bridge at
the other end. The string chews into the wood, until the fingerboard needs resurfacing. Some oud players finger with their nails to give more sustain
and a brighter sound. Coating the fingerboard with a hard polymer gives a brighter sound with more sustain, and protects the wood. Tung oil is hard
enough (as shown above) but not as brittle-sounding as epoxy or cyanoacrylate. You can use your nails to make the sound brighter, but the fine timbre
of the oud would be lost with a metal fingerboard like on a Sarod. A premium ebony fingerboard is probably hard enough to not need coating, but
cheaper ebony and walnut and rosewood are softer and a coating avoids having to sand/level the neck.
As to Walnut, it's medium soft, but there's a very rare Lapacho variety that's falsely called a walnut, and very hard. All the common woods have a
JANKA hardness rating:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janka_hardness_test
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Sazi
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Actually it depends on the walnut...
According to the Janka test...
Walnut, Domestic 1010
Walnut, African, Mansonia 1290
Walnut, Brazilian 3680
as you can see there is quite a difference.
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FLIPAX
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Hi Tony!
U r Correct last night when I was Playing the Oud I found Out that I played w/ my Figernails.
Good that you have mention coz I will ask this sometime. The result of my experiment about playing with nail fingertips is More Clear note w/ more
sustain and its sounds more natural sound for my ears because when u play with your finger skin normally you get a plastic sound or what I meant is it
sounded more like plucked but if with the help of nails wowowow
Sound came allive like a soft shimmering sustain.
| Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud |
A premium ebony fingerboard is probably hard enough to not need coating, but cheaper ebony and walnut and rosewood are softer and a coating avoids
having to sand/level the neck.
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Mine I Think Has A good Premium Grade Ebony. So maybe not neccesary to coat.
So How do you know if Your Ebony Needs Sanding?
Do You normally do this when e.g. U have a Buzzing fingerboard?
Gracias,
Philip
Every time I Hear The Oud, I fall into a Deep Long Trance of Perpetual Bliss!
"Naseem Al Rooh"
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Sazi
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If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
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FLIPAX
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WOW Sazi Nice to hear from you Man!
How's Everything?
BTW that quote was also said by Yngwie J Malmsteen.
Awesome Player! w/ a rockstar attitude.
Cheers
Philip
Every time I Hear The Oud, I fall into a Deep Long Trance of Perpetual Bliss!
"Naseem Al Rooh"
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Aymara
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Buy yourself a tube screamer and combine it with your oud's pickup and be the first who plays heavy metal on oud
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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