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billkilpatrick
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medieval european oud tuning
at present, my oud is tuned C-E-A-D-G-C (bass to treble) - a simple, easy to play tuning - but was wondering about trying something a bit more
adventurous.
if there are those present who play early, european music on the oud, may i ask what tuning(s) you use? ... and why?
regards - bill
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Sazi
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Hi Bill, I used to play mediaeval music with my oud - actually, that's what got me into oud in the first place! - I used the same tuning you use,
probably for the same reasons, though occasionally would tune the Bass C to D, just for a handy drone in some of the Cantigas de Santa Maria.
Cheers, S
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Aymara
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Hi,
from what I read, the medieval oud (before 15th century) was much smaller and had only 4 course, later 5. So the European lute became the same, but
with frets.
But what might have been the original tunings?
The written records for the lute seem to start in Renaissance with a 6 course lute, tuned to GG CC FF AA dd gg, as far as I know.
But what about the oud? Where did the written records regarding tuning start here? Did musical notation maybe start earlier in the arabic world?
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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patheslip
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I use CFAdgc. It's a choice between tuning all the way in fourths: BEAdgc, and keeping it simple, or gaining the extra resonance. It's nearer to the
lute pattern C,F,Bb,d,g,c which I might try soon. I'll have to to use tab, when I get round to learning it..
As Aymara writes, these extra courses are a newfangled introduction anyway.
As far as musical notation, there've been some recent discoveries from Anglo-Saxon times in Wessex: late 10th century Exeter I vaguely remember.
This would be for vocal religious work in the Minster. (can't be bothered to google)
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Aymara
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Hi again,
I found something interesting about the history of notation in German Wiki:
In ancient Egypt a simple notation existed since 3000 B.C. ... wow. The first advanced notation is known from ancient Greece 250 B.C. and was also
used in Europe, but got lost with the fall of the Roman Empire. The use of the Arabic notation startet in the 13th century and was based on the Greek
tradition ... that means, it didn't get lost like in Europe.
So we might have a chance to find something out about the tuning of the medieval oud, though it won't be easy as it seems.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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DaveH
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I'm not exactly sure either but I think 4 string examples were in fourths. It's only with more strings where you have to worry about sticking that
major third in to avoid sharps and flats on open strings and to get back to the 2 octave interval between strings 1 and 6.
The thing I really wanted to suggest though, is to experiment with octave stringing on the lower courses - I think it would give a good medieval
sound, even though these courses weren't on medieval lutes.
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billkilpatrick
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some background information:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guido_of_Arezzo
... arezzo is about a hour away - wonderful place.
thanks for the DEAdgc and CFAdgc suggestions - bill
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Sazi
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Check out "old oud, new project" From jdowning, the man is a minefield of information and a very thorough researcher, (thanks for all your great work
JD) , the last few posts in particular, re: guages and composition of early oud strings, - from this it should be relatively easy (?!) to work out ,
by the tension, what the actual pitches of the tuning might have been...maybe by the time you read this the hard work may have even been done for
you
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Aymara
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Wow, that's a long discussion ... 11 pages ... too much for this time of day, ehm, night ... gotta go to bed 
Thanks for the tip!
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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fernandraynaud
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For what it's worth, one of the earliest detailed treatises is Al Farabi's. Al Farabi writing in Baghdad in the early 10th century, describes lute/oud
tuning issues in detail, and the 4 or 5 strings are invariably tuned in ascending fourths. This is a sort of primordial tuning to lute and oud.
BTW, the belief that Arabic and Western music and culture developed in isolation from each other is complete fantasy. Al Farabi knew Greek thought in
detail, the Arabic language was studied by the learned in France in the 10th-13th century, and the songs of the European troubadours were popular in
Syria. The mysterious tradition of the sung poetry of southern France was developed in contact with traditions likely more ancient than either
Christian or Islamic culture, and common to both.
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Sazi
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Alsiadi's site http://www.alsiadi.com/ has some old Syrian tunes, and you can hear that some of them have a distinctly european Mediaeval flavor, which I like.
(I wish I could remember which ones, but... ) and Scorch doesn't want to work with this 'puter 
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fernandraynaud
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Guido's was a sort of Music For Dummies, and unfortunately it won over some influential patrons. Guido was the one who said the neumes contained notes
that were "fruits of corruption", "laxities brought about by lack of reasoning". That's apparently how microtones got cleaned out of the staff and
Western music took a sharp turn in a different direction.
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billkilpatrick
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clean lines; simplicity in many things - architecture, being one - and a general lack of ornamentation seems to have been an early medieval theme in
europe. can't remember the exact phrase but at some point, music that didn't fit the mold was considered satanic.
i used straight 4ths (BEAdgc) when i first started playing ... the great habib guerroumi uses it.
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fernandraynaud
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Oh, heavens, I didn't realize this site is there, and more than covers many of these issues, like the influence of Arabic culture:
http://www.muslimheritage.com/
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billkilpatrick
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great site - thank you ... "music science" in the search engine brings up the pertinent articles.
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Aymara
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Hello again,
in Germany currently the medieval era is very popular. From spring to fall you find medieval events all over the country, medieval markets, medieval
festivals, where people dress like in that era, drink met, eat historic meals, watch show fights of knights and listen to bands, playing medieval
music.
Though my girlfriend and I like to visit such events, I think about this with mixed emotions, because ...
Yes, for shure. As I read in Wiki, the early Greek notation e.g. was used in the Arabic world and partly in Europe too.
I think the reason is, that the Roman Empire, though they conquered many countries, the Romans didn't destroy their cultures. Parts of these cultures
were even "assimilated" and Latin as official language helped to spread knowledge over the borders.
Don't you think so?
But then with the fall of the Roman Empire and the upcoming Christianization, it seems the opposite happened.
The first is, that Latin vanished, except in Christian church, but most important is ...
The question is, what was not considered satanic? Fact is, that the Christianization destroyed cultures and a wealth of knowledge got lost. Let's have
a look at the Celtic culture for example.
So I look at this era a bit like this: Medievil
But back to music ...
I especially find THIS one very interesting, which seems to be proof for Fernand's above thesis.
But maybe we should concentrate more on the original topic and try to find hints about the medieval oud tuning?
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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Aymara
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Hi again,
regarding the tuning, I found the following in JDowning's medieval oud building thread mentioned above:
Quote: Originally posted by jdowning  |
The string length of the project oud is 56 cm which determines the maximum pitch of the 'Hadd' string (to avoid frequent breakage). For a simply
twisted gut string made from modern gut this would be g' (at A440 pitch) ... |
If we compare that to the documented tuning of the 6-courses Renaissance lute which was tuned to GG CC FF AA dd gg, might that lead to the conclusion,
that the medieval oud was tuned to FF AA dd gg ???
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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Aymara
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Assuming, that the early lutes have been inspired by the oud, it's very questionable, that above thesis is correct, because HERE I found a quote from Praetorius (1619), that the tuning of the early 4 courses lutes had the tuning: c f a d'. But even this
seems to be questionable.
But it might help to research in both directions, medieval lute and oud.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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Aymara
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Goog morning,
I found something by chance which enchanted me, so I thought I should share it with you, though it's slightly off-topic, because they play lute and
not oud:
Rondellus is a medieval band from Estonia, which tried somthing totally new. Listen to their song Magus. This is the old
Black Sabbath song The Wizard, but a medieval version with Latin text and it sounds, as if this song would have been originally
written in the Middle Ages. I love it and I hope you'll find it inspiring.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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billkilpatrick
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yes - i was never into black sabbath (loathe that gothic rock sound) but theirs is a nice acoustic treatment - thanks.
... thanks also because i'd never made the "est" (east) "estonia" association before.
- bill
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fernandraynaud
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There's one detail in all this talk of tuning: unless you had a wind instrument handy with a known pitch, I would imagine you often didn't KNOW what
you were tuning to, other than ascending fourths. It's likely RAST was, shall we say, a tad mobile, depending on available singers, cat gut, etc. And
if it felt too tight starting on THIS note with these strings, no problem, here kitty kitty, start over lower.
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billkilpatrick
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this is true ... a movable, musical feast.
i don't known when additional strings, tuned in 3rds, were added to the original 4 but i would assume there were musicians who continued playing in
straight 4ths.
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Aymara
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A further question I have is, when did the oud become fretless?
PS: Regarding Fernand's hint about tuning to a wind instrument ... I think this is important, because the tuning fork was invented not until 1711.
PPS: Black Sabbath is not a Gothic Rock band. They were one of the inventors of Hard Rock in the late Sixties / early Seventies.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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billkilpatrick
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A further question I have is, when did the oud become fretless?
... good question - could there have always been both, depending on musicial preference?
PS: Regarding Fernand's hint about tuning to a wind instrument ... I think this is important, because the tuning fork was invented not until 1711.
... didn't know that - good information.
PPS: Black Sabbath is not a Gothic Rock band. They were one of the inventors of Hard Rock in the late Sixties / early Seventies.[/ rquote]
yes - i know ... i remember listening to them and wondering if the beautiful, exotic, rock and roll chrysalis was becoming just plain noise.
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Aymara
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I'm not 100% shure, but as far as I know, the first ouds had frets and it became fretless later ... maybe in the Renaissance era?
| Quote: | | ... didn't know that - good information. |
I thought, the tuning fork would have been invented earlier, but Fernand's hint let me check it out. I think, it would be interesting to dig deaper
into medieval tuning methods.
| Quote: | | i remember listening to them ... |
For comparison HERE you'll find the original song The Wizard which shows cleary, what fascinating job Rondellus really did by porting this song to a
medieval version with Latin text. BTW, they made a complete album with such BS cover songs ... maybe someone is interested like me ... check it out HERE. For those interested, HERE's a further song from that album.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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