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bibo10
Oud Junkie
Posts: 300
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Location: New Jersey, USA
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I am confused, I say we all just book a trip to Syria and figure this out 
+++++++++++
Michael-GOD BLESS EGYPT
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shareen
Oud Junkie
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Location: Upstate New York
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I would love to book a trip to Damascus to figure it out but they won't let me in with and Israeli stamp on my passport  . Musicians should have full diplomatic immunity I think! We are more diplomats that
the "real" ones.
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Dr. Oud
Oud Junkie
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Quote: Originally posted by Danielo  | | ... Are there btw many ouds with "Abdo G. Nahat & Fils" label after 1935 ? ( ask because I never saw any). .. |
I have only one picture of an oud attributed to Abdo George in 1959 (pictured), but I have not seen the label. Also I misstated, it was George Hana
who remained in Damascus, not George Abdo (who went to Brazil according to his descendants). It is confusing because this is all based on label
information and heresay outside the family. Even the family members that I have asked are not certain about the details. It's been 2 generations since
the emigration, after all.
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DaveH
Oud Junkie
Posts: 526
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Doc, have you tried contacting Vitor Abudhair? He might have more information. He seems to have known Elias. He certainly knew Romeu Feres.
http://www.vitorabudhiar.com/home.htm
I think the email is abudrum@vitorabudhiar.com
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liviajacob
Oud Addict
Posts: 32
Registered: 5-11-2010
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Hi. I’m the author of the cited article about Romeu Feres. My name is Livia Jacob, I´m brazilian, my grandpa was lebanese. First of all,
congratulations, Mike. You have an amazing group here and your web site is also excellent!
Well... I must apologize my translator for the flourish style  May be that was
spring time in Rio when I wrote that? Good job, anyway. Have you lived in Brazil, by the way? That would be impossible for me to translate EVERYTHING
I write... That would be great, I know, but it´s out of my way, hope you to understand me.
I´m just 27 years old, so I haven´t even heard about the brazilian Nahat until I started to research about Romeu Feres who was one of the best arab
singers we had. That´s a long history - not only music promoters claim to be the introductors of arab music in Brazil... That would be…
“common”, I must say. We have a very big problem here , that would be impossible for me to talk about that. You should live here to know. But
anyway, history has been erasing and the new generation of musicians just don´t care about. They don´t care in a strange way… Reading all your
interesting (foreigners) about Nahat… That sounds ironical for me!
Why Brazil? No… not to escape from the Nazis. Brazil became very famous in the Middle East during the 1800´s when the emperor Dom Pedro, the
second, decided to travel to the world. Monarchy soon failed, but the presence of the “king” raised the interesting of the arabs… They started
do arrive by that time, people used to have a romantic imagination about Brazil as a new land, with many chances. Arabs keep on coming for different
reasons since that time. Brazil received lots of Palestinian refugees two or three years ago. Brazil used to have a deep importance in arab cultural
scene during the 50´s, 60´s… Lebanese modern literature is surely influenced by Brazilian modernism. Romeu Féres could sing not only in Arabic,
but also in Portuguese, Italian and Spanish. In general these artists were famous even in Syria and Lebanon… the same we can say about the
Arab-Brazilian musical instruments. Some of these conclusions are written in the book I have cited in the end of my article about Feres - ZEGUIDOUR,
Slimane. A Poesia Árabe Moderna e o Brasil. Editora Brasiliense, São Paulo: 1982.
When I finally received Romeu Feres´ records I decided to research about him and write an article. Not exactly to “save the world”, but to
express the importance of that artists. A newspaper from Santos (the city where Feres lived) talked about someone called Nahat. “Nahat was Feres
teacher” they said. I soon researched about Nahat and had the information that his full name was Elias Abdo Nahat. There are lots of legends about
the way he made people astonished…
By that time, I contacted Vitor Hiar and he told me that Elias was George´s brother and that they were both respectable luthiers. Vitor Abud Hiar was
Fuad Haidamus´ pupil; I guess he knows a lot about this subject, for sure he is a Master, as Haidamus was. Haidamus’ tablas were one of the best
ever. I could play one personally last year and the instrument had still a great sound!
I don´t think Vitor knew Nahat personally, but I´m not sure. Yes, he knew Romeu Féres… but Nahat? I must ask him… But Suzana Khlat knew him!
Suzana was an arab singer, his son is my friend. Suzana´s uncle, Naim Karakand, was a very famous violinist. May be you know him. I have pictures
showing arab musicians together in 1928 and Naim Karakand (violin player who lived in the USA) when he came to Brazil in 1937 to visit his brother
Chukri, who was also a violinist.
http://arabesc.multiply.com/photos/album/112/112
My multiply ARABESC was created to talk about EVERYTHING, not only about music. But my researches are increasing, guys! This week I created a new
multiply page only as a tribute to Brazilian Arab musicians.
http://altarab.multiply.com/
Next month I´m going to Sao Paulo. I´m trying to find more information about some other oudists… This will be my second trip! One of our best
oudist died last month. That was a chock… I can´t do anything for him anymore…
I´m writing about Elias Nahat… so I "failed" here. Are we walking in circles? I hope I could help you in a way… Because you helped me.  I had no idea about all "NAHAT dynasty”! Well done! Mike, may I take
some of NAHAT OUD pictures from your site to ilustrate my article about Elias Nahat, please? Doing credits to you, of course.
Well, folks… that´s all. I hope you like the history… not exactly a Gabo´s book … may be a “novela” (soup opera) as it´s happening in
Brazil.  ) I see it´s difficult to find reliable information about Brazilian
arab music. I try to do my best. And I don´t earn anything, it´s just a hobby… It´s a hard work… I don´t hit the target every time. When we
search, we never stop. Please, Mike, Keep in touch!
Have a nice day, Hugs from Brazil. Livia Jacob.
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Danielo
Oud Junkie
Posts: 365
Registered: 7-17-2008
Location: Paris
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Dear Livia,
welcome on the forum ! We are very glad that you join us altough my portugese is
non-existent
(but with french I can more or less understand) I found your website very interesting..
Thanks a lot for all you are doing for keeping the history of Arab music in Brazil alive !
Some people here (myslef included  are quite obsessed by Nahat family's history...
see a more recent discussion that we had:
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=10628#pid71...
I am sure there is lot of information that you can find here in Brazil : stories, pictures,... I also read somewhere that there is a small museum in
Sao Paolo about Nahat luthiery, have you hear about that?
best regards,
Dan
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DaveH
Oud Junkie
Posts: 526
Registered: 12-23-2005
Location: Birmingham, UK
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Hi Livia and welcome to the forum
Em primeiro lugar, peco desculpas pela insensatez do meu comentario. Just another lesson to think twice before posting on the internet! I realise
Portuguese writing style is more complex than English - just jealous I can't express myself well in Portuguese. Thanks for the embarassment - I
deserved it!
Thanks also for coming on the forum and sharing your research with us. It really is a fascinating area. I'm not a Nahat expert by any means, but I
think you and Dr Oud, who contributed to this thread, would both benefit from a discussion and collaboration on your research in Brazil. Another
member of this forum, and a great player - Nizar Rohana, would also be very interested and interesting. It would be great to be able to link up the
Brazilian and the Syrian history.
Also, see this recent thread
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=10628#pid71...
for a discussion of some of the confusing aspects of identifying which Nahat is which.
Incidentally, Nahat ouds are highly sought after and it's likely that many of the ouds bought and sold nowadays are not original - many have original
bowls, but the soundboard (tabua), the most important part - is modern. I'm the proud owner of one of these, and it's still a marvelous instrument!
Boa sorte com a pesquisa!
D
PS nunca morei no Brasil, mais nao foi por falta de vontade! Passei algum tempo num outro pais que tambem contribuiu para a riqueza da vossa musica -
em Angola. Beijinhos.
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Manil
Oud Maniac
Posts: 77
Registered: 3-19-2010
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Very intereting topic thanks all for your informations
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liviajacob
Oud Addict
Posts: 32
Registered: 5-11-2010
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Hello, everybody!
Thank u for having me here! It´s an honor, indeed. I´m traveling to
Sao Paolo next June or July, I don´t know exactly. Depends on my boss… Anyway, I will try to contact Jorge Aidamus, who is Fuad Haidamus’
brother. Jorge is a very good oud player from that generation. I will ask him about Nahat. I also intend to interview Said Azar… an oud virtuoso,
beautiful voice also… unfortunately he´s very sick… cancer. I don´t know exactly what can I do. It will be hard for me to interview him , I hope
to not bother Said. I guess he´s having bad days, suffering a lot. I will try to do my best. Some special people are helping me with the contacts
(phone numbers, addresses, etc), mainly Vitor Hiar and Jorge Khlat (Suzana´s son). Just keep your fingers crossed for me! May be in one or two months
I may come back here to give any news. 
Danielo:
I can´t write in a perfect French, however, I can read it quite well. There are many French people here in Rio, you must know that. I made some good
friends from France, unfortunately they are now living in Paris. I miss them a
lot! This people were crazy. And of course: the best parties I have gone… unforgettable!) What I want to say is – it´s maybe better keeping the English as our official language. Although I´m a non-native speaker and my
English is not 100%… About a Nahat museum in Sao Paolo… Are sure about it? I have never heard about that, Dan… I saw the link. Wow! You guys are
really mad about Nahat history.
Daveh:
Just never mind. In fact I like your critics. They make sense. I was angry when I
wrote that article. I really have to find the “right tone”. May be – get down… You are totally right about the differences between English
and Portuguese pragmatics (cultural) aspects. English is commonly written with short sentences. In Portuguese we like going in a long way. To
translate is always a hard work. You did a good job in my opinion. I had no idea about fake nahats ouds… Hope Nizar to get in touch.
p.s: Você morou muito tempo na Angola? Infelizmente não tive a oportunidade de passear por essas bandas... E confesso que conheço pouquíssimo da
música angolana, embora goste muito de música africana por causa da percussão. A kizomba e o Kuduro são similares a ritmos que temos por aqui. Sem
dúvida a influência de culturas africanas na música brasileira é marcante. Se tiver oportunidade, conheça o Brasil. É um país lindo. Sou
suspeita para falar. Um beijo!
That´s all, folks. “See” you soon.
Livia Jacob
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liviajacob
Oud Addict
Posts: 32
Registered: 5-11-2010
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I forgot to send you a correction...
The man in the picture posted by Mike does not show Elias Nahat. That man is Jorge Aidamus who is Fuad Haidamus' brother. He´s an oud player. May be
he has an instrument made by Elias.
Well, Dr.Oud, I have tried to send you an email, but it failed. May be your email adress changed?? As I´m going to meet the old musicians in Sao
Paulo, I can also keep in contact with Nahat´s daughter to ask her if she can give us more information, pictures, testemonials, etc , about her
father.But I don´t have her email adress and none of my friends does.
If you want, I can do it. Well, it depends on you, Sir. I think it´s your chance to find some reliable information. I guess Daveh can help
translating my text.
My email: liviadv@hotmail.com
See you...
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Danielo
Oud Junkie
Posts: 365
Registered: 7-17-2008
Location: Paris
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Hi Livia,
about the museum I read it in a french book about Damascus.. you can get a sample here.
I don't know why you do not receive an answer from Richard (our Dr. Oud), who is always very helpful... The fact is that he did not post on the forum
for some time, I hope that he's doing well!
Please collect as much info as you can from these old musicians in Sao Paulo, all our small oud community would be really grateful
Keep us updated !
regards,
Dan
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liviajacob
Oud Addict
Posts: 32
Registered: 5-11-2010
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Salut, Danielo. Merci pour votre attention! And also thank u for the link, I have checked it. I have never heard about a Nahat Museum before, but I
will ask for it when I go to São Paulo.
Unfortunatelly I commited a mistake. I thought Dr Oud was Mike´s nickname, I mean Mike, the forum´s owner. Sorry Mr. Hankey. I finally received an aswer from the right Dr Oud and he redirected my email adress
to Elias´daughter as I requested him.  I hope her to help me with my
researches. Unfortunatelly I can´t force people to help me. It depends on each´s will.
Let´s see what happens. I always try to keep myself optimistic. For sure I will keep you updated. It´s my pleisure! By the way - Thank u very much
indeed for support me. Sometimes even in Brazil it´s not easy to find musicians interested in our history...
Regards and see you soon,
Lívia.
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DaveH
Oud Junkie
Posts: 526
Registered: 12-23-2005
Location: Birmingham, UK
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Ola Livia
I look forward to seeing what you find out. Please keep posting!
Dave
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liviajacob
Oud Addict
Posts: 32
Registered: 5-11-2010
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Obrigada, Daveh! Não sumirei! Espero conseguir o que quero. Infelizmente nem sempre as pessoas colaboram. Mas vamos torcer...
Um beijo e tudo de bom! Livia.
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liviajacob
Oud Addict
Posts: 32
Registered: 5-11-2010
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Hi, guys, I'm back.
Here are the results of my researches:
http://altarab.multiply.com/journal/item/5/5
Soon I will publish the pictures of Elias Nahat's ouds. Please, Daveh (or anyone else), can you correct my English mistakes?? This is very important
to me.
I hope this may be usefull for you. Longing to hear from you,
Livia.
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Danielo
Oud Junkie
Posts: 365
Registered: 7-17-2008
Location: Paris
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Olá Livia,
I was about to write you to have news about your research!
thanks a lot for this unvaluable contribution to the Nahat's history ! I just read it, it is really
very interesting... we're all waiting for the pictures
Unfortunately I cannot help you with English (mine is no better than yours )
Just one thing to avoid confusion: the father of Elias is usually refered as Abdo George, not George Abdo (which should be the full name of his son
George, as the second name is the father's name).
EDIT: I just noticed that this is a problem in the English version, but not in the Portugese.
There remains one big mystery: The Nahats were the most famous luthiers of the Arab world... Apparently Elias had the talent to be a great luthier as
his father (as Adel Salameh testified)... so why did they emigrate to a country where they probably expected that the oud demand was low
??
regards,
Dan
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DaveH
Oud Junkie
Posts: 526
Registered: 12-23-2005
Location: Birmingham, UK
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Hi Livia
You've been busy! Looks pretty good to me, but I'll have a look at it over the weekend.
Just realised I wrote your name as Jabob in an earlier post. Sorry!
Dave
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alfaraby
Oud Junkie
Posts: 796
Registered: 9-18-2009
Location: Holy Land
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Great unprecedented research. But one "fact" is still controversial, and that's the claim that Farid's oud shown in the photos is George Nahat's !
NO, IT IS NOT !
This particular Farid's oud had been built by a Lebanese luthier called Emil Khoury from Beirout.
The famous Iraqi luthier Thabet Albasry saw the oud personally at Faisal Al- Atrash, Farid's nephew's place in Cairo & wrote in
"Zeryab Musical Forum" he had seen the label himself, but couldn't take a photo of the inside of the oud . The label says : "Emil Khoury, 17
Bishop Gabriel st. Ashrafeyah, Beirout, Lebanon". See the attached photos.
The Syrian junior player Ghassan Yousef had a once in a lifetime chance to play the oud as shown in this video :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SINA5Dd8Fc
It's not clear though who is this luthier Emil Khoury &/or if he was really the luthier, or had he just restored the oud while Farid lived in
Beirout; but in any case, it's obvious from looking at the fixed bridge that it's not Nahat's AT ALL . All Nahat ouds I've ever seen, whether in
person or in photos, had the same bridge as my George Nahat's 1942 bridge as seen in the last photo attached herewith.
Yours indeed
Alfaraby
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liviajacob
Oud Addict
Posts: 32
Registered: 5-11-2010
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Hi, guys. Thank u so so much. I have no words to express all my gratitute. I had a hard day. It's like finding the oasis!
Dan, merci , you were right about the name.... a problem with the translation. I have already corrected! About coming to Brazil, well, I think it's
not exactly a mistery. Dear, I have a close friend here, she's french. 84 years old. She married to run way from the World war2 and came to Brazil.
Yes, she look for a foreign husband. Here she had to start the university from the 1 year (in France she was gratuated)... but at least could work as
a french teacher and felt safe. Yes, sometimes the only thing we can do is TO SURVIVE! Even nowaday she is scared about France, because she has very
bad memories. This may sound impossible for us, cause we don't know what a war is. Lebaneses and syrians came to scape from the turks (that happened
to my gradpa)... and from the war. In the Middle East this "neighbours"have their problems. Here they became friends. We have syrian-lebanese clubs,
hospitals and do one. I see the Nahats could work with wood (not only making ouds, they were specialized in making furniture also). We used to have
many woods here (still have, but now ... well, that would take time for me to explain). For sure coming to Brazil to work with wood was a big deal by
that time. They were not ONLY luthiers. They were also luthiers. I see Elias missed building the instruments. Why did he waited so many years to build
that again?? For me it's clear - we can't build an instrument without research. he may be had a long research on brazilian woods and many experiments,
until find the best way to do that. I guess he studied for years! Elias keep builting the instruments much more for passion, althought we had good
oud players here, but they were not so many people as they were in the East. That's what make the history so beautiful to me, he was in love with
it.
Hey, Daveh, no problem. I just wish you didn't know me. That would be great to hear your comments again hehe I hope you to be true and don't fell shy
to tell me what you think, ok?
Alfaraby, it's a honour to hear from you. Well, now that makes sense. I took this picture from this forum, I don't remember the exact link... I will
remove the picture....
Thank u, a thousand times. You have no idea of how your comments mean to me!
See you.
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liviajacob
Oud Addict
Posts: 32
Registered: 5-11-2010
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http://altarab.multiply.com/photos/album/5/5
http://altarab.multiply.com/photos/album/6/6
The first albuns of the collection. Sorry, I have been so slowly... I
wish I could upload everything faster, but.... no time.
There are more 10 instruments... i'm editing the whole thing.
I hope you like it!
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liviajacob
Oud Addict
Posts: 32
Registered: 5-11-2010
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http://altarab.multiply.com/photos/album/7/7
Oud made by Abdo, in 1930. I have translated the label (french text). Please, Dan, can u see if my translation is Ok??
I hadn't time to translate the arabic part (in fact I would need some help and can't do just by myself), but the year in arabic is 1930, Damascus,
Syria.
It's an oud to kids. Very special.
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Danielo
Oud Junkie
Posts: 365
Registered: 7-17-2008
Location: Paris
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Ola Livia,
thanks for the pictures ! really beautiful ouds
Ta traduction est tres bonne ! Juste une chose :
It is not 'meubles ou entaux' but 'meubles orientaux'
In 1930 Elias worked in his father's shop, so it may be that Elias constructed this one as well... see here for an Abdo and Elias women's model of the same period. Quite similar except the pickgard..
regards,
Dan
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alfaraby
Oud Junkie
Posts: 796
Registered: 9-18-2009
Location: Holy Land
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Mood: Cool
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My pleasure & honor Livia !
Great photos. Any more ?
Here's my gratitude : a trial translation of the Arabic label on Abdo's 1930 :
"Carpentry Shop, Established in the year 1880
Performs all oriental crafts & all orders at super compromising
prices as compared to the craft's precision & strength. Experience is the best proof.
Abdo George Nahhat & Sons
Rose Alley, Damascus, Syria 1930
No. 908 ".
Quiz :
If the number at the lower left corner is correct, there's something that should be clarified : How come the attached 1927 Abdo's is numbered 2327
& Abdo's 1928 number is 2395, while this one, shown in the photos Livia has posted at Altarab site, is numbered 908 ?
If the number is missing a digit at the beginning, and the right number is 2908 for example, this would make no sense either, since no luthier is
capable of manufacturing this number of ouds on annual basis; not even uncle ABDO & his both sons.
More on the numbers, pls see here also :
| Quote: Originally posted by ALAMI | the serial numbers stayed consistent and consecutive over the years whether the rosettes were signed Abdu Only, Abdu & sons then Abdu &
Elias.# 1964 in 1921 - #2161 in 1924 - #2333 in 1927 - #2500 in 1929
|
A Mystery, isn't it !!
Yours indeed
Alfaraby
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David Parfitt
Oud Junkie
Posts: 629
Registered: 11-16-2003
Location: Devon, UK
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| Quote: Originally posted by shareen | | I would love to book a trip to Damascus to figure it out but they won't let me in with and Israeli stamp on my passport . Musicians should have full diplomatic immunity I think! We are more diplomats that
the "real" ones. |
Can't you just request a new passport? That's what I did when I went to Iran, as I also had an Israeli stamp in my mine.
All the best
David
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liviajacob
Oud Addict
Posts: 32
Registered: 5-11-2010
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It is not 'meubles ou entaux' but 'meubles orientaux'
Thank u, Dan. I'm lucky to know some french and some arabic, otherwise,
that would be difficult to create this catalogue of the instruments.
I think u are right, may be Elias made this one with his father... and wow, thank u for showing me the women model, so interesting! And quite similar
to this one I have photographed!
Al Faraby, thank u so much for translating the whole arabic text. That would be impossible for me without your help. And you are right, this number
makes no sense. Could it be a 2.608?? I am posting some other pics here. Can you read them and tell me your opinion?? I am waiting to hear from
you...
p.s.: I will post some others pics showing more brazilian nahats as soon as I can.
p.s. 2: About a new passport to Shareen - Why don't you come to Brazil? You don't need any new document and of course, we have the most beautiful
beaches and landscapes on Earth! Of course Syria is also beautiful, but.... I'm sure you will have no regreat.
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