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alfaraby
Oud Junkie
Posts: 796
Registered: 9-18-2009
Location: Holy Land
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Hello Livia
Did you manage to contact Mrs. Nahat & tell her that her father is the last not to be seen ever in a photo !
I wonder if people, trying to assimilate in a new homeland, tend to wipe out their past, & become "more Catholic than the Pope !! I've never
experienced anything alike; since I, like my ancestors, just stayed "home" since ever ! Good/Bad ? I don't really know.
When translating your research into Arabic, I came across some interesting questions/quizzes :
Why did Nahat family staying in Damascus has stopped building ouds ? Why didn't anyone of their descendants try to obtain their
father's/g.father's profession, like almost everybody in the East had done for ages ?
Has the immigration of Abdo the great to Brazil in 1938 just broken them ? Did they all just lived in Abdo's shadow and gained benefit of their family
name, or were they great luthiers by themselves ?
Where did Rofan's, Hanna's & his sons George & Tawfiq's, Antoin's children vanish ?
Were they all by chance sterile/infertile or did they have descendants ? Is there any next of kin to anyone in Damascus today ?
Have anyone ever tried to contact them ? Dr.oud ?
I wonder ....
Yours indeed
Alfaraby
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fhalaw
Oud Junkie
Posts: 144
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Location: Montreal, Qc
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I had a friend, who was my classmate at the engineering school in McGill, (now he is at Oxford I think), who is from the Nahat Family. When he learned
I play oud, he told me that he recently learned his (great)grandfather was a oud maker. He said he was really surprised that he saw somewhere on the
net a picture which was the same portrait hanging at his family home in Syria.
I never really followed up but if I see the guy on Facebook I might press him for more details.
But a question, why are you guys so obsesed with the Nahat family and why are you so desperate to have a Stradivarious equivalent. Buy a nice oud that
sounds good and just play man.
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alfaraby
Oud Junkie
Posts: 796
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Quote: Originally posted by fhalaw  | Why are you guys so obsesed with the Nahat family ?
Buy a nice oud that sounds good and just play man.
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OMG Fadi ! What a question ?
I think you're missing something here, so read, see, play, observe, compare, tune an all original Abdo Nahat oud & you'll get what we are talking
about here. I can't just explain, you should experience yourself.
Moreover, did you think anyone here is sitting alone outside grabbing his head between his hands & morn the fact he ain't got a Nahat ?
We all have several ouds (haven't we) and Nahat's among others & that's why we're looking for another one, the ultimate oud, that does not really
exist, like this one attached !
Cheers Fadi
yours indeed
Alfaraby
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liviajacob
Oud Addict
Posts: 32
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Hi, dear Al faraby.... well, I guess Elias kept his ancestrors religion, once he was an orthodox catholic in Brazil (nothing to do with the pope  ], as they used to be in Syria. I haven't asked the descendents if they are still
orthodox or if they became roman catholic (most common in Brazil)... in general I avoid to talk about religion (you know how problematic this subject
can be). I don't know if people try to wipe out their past in a conscious way... maybe it's not volunteer, but a survival mechanism, and to the new
generations, it's a "natural" route. One of my closest friends here is chinese, although he was born here, his parents are 100% made in China. He and
his brothers can't speak mandarin or any chinese language. They are 100% brazilian. Why? Because they were born here and even their parents are much
more brazilian than chinese after living here for ages... People can't forget that the imigrants suffer a lot. It's not easy to leave your own
culture and try to change your habits from night to day. You just do this in a way to survive. There are prejudices, of course, and surely we are too
"broad-minded" , at least that's what the arabs tell me (this may shock some easterns). But in comparision to other places, arabs have a warm  reception here and can practice the religion they want to. There has never been
any persecution against roman catholics, protestants, orthodoxs, muslims, jews or any one.
Good/bad? Well, dear, it's a difficult choise.Perhaps you don't need to chose! We can't be manichean. Sometimes things are good on one hand and bad on
other...
I must be bothering everybody with this subject. Sorry....
So about your request:
I will phone them this wekeend. I have been so busy. And unfortunatelly, I had a problem with my mobile... I hope them to give a picture of Elias to
this forum!
Ok, now let's see your questions. 
Why did Nahat family staying in Damascus has stopped building ouds ?
Answer: Have they really stayed there? Haven't they moved to the USA or Canada as many syrians did?Must check.
Why didn't anyone of their descendants try to obtain their father's/g.father's profession, like almost everybody in the East had done for ages ?
Answer: Because here in Brazil that would be impossible for them to survive just manufacturing OUDS. That would be interesting in the East, not in the
West, once here people have no idea about what is an oud. They could work with furnitures, that's a recognized profession, but I guess Elias (as many
of his generation) after earning some money, encouraged his children to go to the university and have a carrer to ensure their lives. My grandpa did
the same. But past times... things changed a lot. Elias watched the Economic Boom. This is over now.
Has the immigration of Abdo the great to Brazil in 1938 just broken them ? Did they all just lived in Abdo's shadow and gained benefit of their family
name, or were they great luthiers by themselves ?
ANSWER: I don't know. I know they were all respectable furniture makers and they earned money with this profession. Some old arab members of SAO
PAULO community remember ELIAS and his ouds... these people told me he was a luthier who loved to astonish people with the strings of his
instruments.
Where did Rofan's, Hanna's & his sons George & Tawfiq's, Antoin's children ?Were they all by chance sterile/infertile or did they have
descendants ? Is there any next of kin to anyone in Damascus today ?Have anyone ever tried to contact them ? Dr.oud
ANSWER: I asked the Brazilian Nahat by that time. They told me the genealogy must be review. They have no contact with anyone in Damascus.
Well, I hope I could help you... Thank u very much for translating me. 
Yours, Livia.
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liviajacob
Oud Addict
Posts: 32
Registered: 5-11-2010
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| Quote: Originally posted by alfaraby |
OMG Fadi ! What a question ?
I think you're missing something here, so read, see, play, observe, compare, tune an all original Abdo Nahat oud & you'll get what we are talking
about here. I can't just explain, you should experience yourself.
yours indeed
Alfaraby
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Thank u a 1000 times, guys. I'm learning a lot!
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Jameel
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1672
Registered: 12-5-2002
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| Quote: Originally posted by alfaraby | | Quote: Originally posted by fhalaw | Why are you guys so obsesed with the Nahat family ?
Buy a nice oud that sounds good and just play man.
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OMG Fadi ! What a question ?
I think you're missing something here, so read, see, play, observe, compare, tune an all original Abdo Nahat oud & you'll get what we are talking
about here. I can't just explain, you should experience yourself.
Moreover, did you think anyone here is sitting alone outside grabbing his head between his hands & morn the fact he ain't got a Nahat ?
We all have several ouds (haven't we) and Nahat's among others & that's why we're looking for another one, the ultimate oud, that does not really
exist, like this one attached !
Cheers Fadi
yours indeed
Alfaraby
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Woooooooow. That is inspiring. And yes, I do sit and shake my head from time to time about not having one of these. Mostly though I'd just like to
look one over in person. And photograph it. What we really need is a coffee table book of all the great Nahats....
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mavrothis
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1674
Registered: 6-5-2003
Location: NJ/NYC
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Mood: big band envy
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Hi,
I've been enjoying this thread very much. I have to say that the fingerboard Alfaraby attached in his last post might be my favorite fingerboard
design of all time. It is really unique - the oud in general is just gorgeous, having some similarities with a Gameel George I've seen (ebony/ivory
inlays) and also the lavta (ebony/ivory inlays) in the Athens museum of traditional instruments.
Beautiful work! Thanks for sharing, and for all the discoveries.
mavrothi
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Dr. Oud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1370
Registered: 12-18-2002
Location: Sacramento, CA, USA
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Mood: better than before
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I have received email from several Nahat descendants all over the world: Switzerland, LA, Saudi, London, etc. The sad fact is that in the Arabic (and
Persian) cultures, only family members are taught the art/craft by a maker. Thankfully Turkey supports an apprentice system, so if you want to learn,
you can enroll with a Turkish master oud maker. This situation explains why Turkish ouds are consistently of better quality while only a few Arabic
makers achieve real mastery in their lifetime. Often they are descendants of other makers. Someone interested in making ouds without a family
connection is forced to start from scratch, disassembling ouds to try to discover the secrets. It is very difficult with Arabic ouds since the designs
vary so much, even within the Nahat family. This fact inspired me to write the Construction book, and I am so glad I did. The art/craft of oud making
has certainly grown as a result of an open dialogue, and many aspiring makers have created their ouds with the help of the book. Some are obvioius
master craftsman (Jameel, Benoit Raby, Pierre Marzin, Jean-Paul Dautais, Joseph Hitti and others). The tragedy of the loss of the knowledge and skill
of the Nahat family may be recoverable, it just may take another 200-300 years to develop.
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alfaraby
Oud Junkie
Posts: 796
Registered: 9-18-2009
Location: Holy Land
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| Quote: Originally posted by Dr. Oud | | The sad fact is that in the Arabic (and Persian) cultures, only family members are taught the art/craft by a maker. . |
It's not only Arabs' tragedy. It's a worldwide problem. I've encountered a western piano builder who has been successfully working for the last 50
years. I asked him if he had taught anyone or if any of his kids had been trained by him, & he said : NEVER ! No one wanted to devote himself to
such an exhausting career like mine !
I have met tens of luthiers during the last 3 decades allover the Arab world. None of them (except for one) has ever managed to earn a reasonable
respectful living . I've never met a luthier who had ever owned a car !! So why would they like their kids to stick to poverty like they did ?
| Quote: Originally posted by Dr. Oud | | The tragedy of the loss of the knowledge and skill of the Nahat family may be recoverable, it just may take another 200-300 years to develop.
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We shall be mourning this for the coming 200-300 years . What a loss !
Yours indeed
Alfaraby
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liviajacob
Oud Addict
Posts: 32
Registered: 5-11-2010
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You are right, Al Faraby. It's not just an Arab-tragedy. My mother's grandmother knew a lot about the herbal remedies of the florest and the correct
way to prepare them. However, she didn't teach her daughters, cause according to her, her descendents were not "gifted" by God. Besides that, she
didn't even teach anyone else! All her knowlegde died with her. The same thing happened to many "natural doctors"of her generation. I am not comparing
this loss to the Nahat's case. May be my exampe may sounds silly, but shows how a cultural treasure may desappear from Earth so easily.
And, yes... none can be just a professional oud maker without having another profession... that's sad.
But I can also understand what you, Dr Oud, want to say. I really can...
Well. I hope u may reconstruct what time destroyed.... I have learned a lot with you. 
Yours, Livia.
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liviajacob
Oud Addict
Posts: 32
Registered: 5-11-2010
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Hi, folks...
I am back. With some good news... and some bad also...
The good news for you - Mussalam Dib´s son, Walter, got in touch with me. He asked me to write a tribute to his late father who was a
Brazilian-Syrian (imigrated from Homs when he was 14 years old) oudist and composer... he recorded some Arab Lps here in Brazil, during the 60´s and
70´s. Walter sent me many old pictures, showing western musicians in Sao Paulo last week, and I published everything in Al Tarab.multiply.
Today he sent me some more pics. Those photos show Mussalam´s oud. And as I have supposed, it´s a Nahat. Mussalam was very close to Elias Nahat, as
Walter told me, so I was almost sure that some of his ouds came from Nahat dinasty. But one more mistery raised now, guys... The label (not the same
label of the other ouds I have taken pics) show the date - december, 05, year 1934. Elia´s family told me he and his sons came in 1935. Abdo George
came after, in 1938. But if Mussalm got this oud in 1934, so the family arrived before! May be Elia´s family can´t remember the exactly year of
arrival (that would be really difficult, if they don´t kept any document or passport), but I guess we are now getting closer...
This label has the adress - RUA MONSENHOR ANDRADE, 8 - São Paulo, BRAZIL, handwritting, what proofs that the instrument was made here, without shadow
of doubt. But for sure Elias label is a post-label, as it´s written in Portuguese.... Now, who can solve this case?
Elias´label: http://altarab.multiply.com/photos/album/17/Brazilian_Nahat_Label_E...
The 1930´s syrian label (Elias oud, kept by his family) - http://altarab.multiply.com/photos/album/7#
Mussalam´s oud - http://altarab.multiply.com/photos/album/30/30
Now, the bad news - Next year, I will close Al Tarab. It means that everything I
could collected until present time will be there. But I am not going to do any other uploads... Hope you have enjoyed, specially Nahat´s instrument
in Brazil.
http://altarab.multiply.com/reviews/item/3
Have a nice time. Merry Christmas, happy new year and so on...
Yours, Livia.
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Dr. Oud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1370
Registered: 12-18-2002
Location: Sacramento, CA, USA
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Mood: better than before
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Another loss to our shrinking world of traditional music, I will miss Livia's insightful and informative research on her website. Dang!
I am also going through some changes. I have been given authorization to write the biography of John Bilezikjian. It is a privilege and honor to
undertake this task, and the depth and breadth of John's talent and contributions will amaze many people I'm sure. This opportunity dovetails
perfectly into my recent education in Graphic Publication, which I have two more quarters to complete.
I too will be closing my oud repair schedule during the effort to write John's story. I will make exceptions for my own ouds or special antiques, but
the work will be slowed down by the effort on the book (and finishing school).
Hey alfaraby, I see Abdo in the shams, but when was your Nahat made? It is spectacular!
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Danielo
Oud Junkie
Posts: 365
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Location: Paris
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Hi Livia,
too bad you will put an end to your research But thanks a lot for all what you
have done so far
Here is my proposal for the mystery:
the label on this oud is exactly the same printed label that was used in Syria for decades by Abdo George. As you can see in the bottom-right corner
on your pictures, there is still the address in Damascus printed on this label. So for sure this label has been printed in Syria. Would Elias have
bothered about carrying printed labels with him on the boat to Brazil? So I think that the oud was made in Syria, in 1934 indeed. Later on in Brazil,
for some reason, Elias (or George who knows) had to open the oud for a repair (maybe due to the drastic change of climate), and add to the label this
handwritten address.
Does it make sense? A way to check would be to find which woods are used on this oud... exotic ones or not?
regards,
Dan
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Alfaraby
Oud Junkie
Posts: 796
Registered: 9-18-2009
Location: Holy Land
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Richard dear !
I wish this oud was mine. This is my friend's in Kuwait. He negotiated for almost a year in order to get & finally he did. He must have paid a
fortune, but he never revealed such info.
It's 1917 Abdo Nahat's, one of three to be known to exist : Hamza's, Sherif Muhieldine's in Qunia/Turkey museume & this one. This type is called
"Prince Type", since no one but princes could afford such a fancy at that time. This is the atmost Abdo the great has ever reached.
I think your chart should be updated, don't you think so ?
Tours indeed
Alfaraby
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liviajacob
Oud Addict
Posts: 32
Registered: 5-11-2010
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Hi, folks....
Maybe you are going to like it. I hope so! A gift to Nahat ouds´ addicted. I must confess I did not want to open the web site again... but it would
be a pity to waste those pictures... I know it can be usefull to many people. So... I am back for a while. Unfortunatelly Elia´s grandson gave me no
clue about the year of those Ouds...
http://altarab.multiply.com/photos/album/31
http://altarab.multiply.com/photos/album/32/32
http://altarab.multiply.com/photos/album/33
With my best wishes, Livia.
P.s.: By the way - Happy 2011, happy carnival, Happy easter and whatever....
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Alfaraby
Oud Junkie
Posts: 796
Registered: 9-18-2009
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OMG !
Livia keeps surprising us over & over again. What a great exposure of Elias Abdo Nahat (1902-1993), RIP. No one on the net has ever seen his face
before today: Palms Sunday 2011, for he didn't use to stick his "nose" in every label, like other did. He just wrote Abdo Nahat & Sons, but never
inked his photo in the label. See for yourselves the labels @ Livia's site.
Great job as usual Livia dear !
Mehran Mississian 1924 oud is a beauty as well. I envy these people who had the luck to find such beauties. I hope its sound sounds the same as its
looks.
THANK YOU LIVIA for keeping us posted and for keeping this thread alive.
Yours indeed
Alfaraby
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mavrothis
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1674
Registered: 6-5-2003
Location: NJ/NYC
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Thank you for these pictures. They are all beautiful instruments.
Something about the Missisian oud really makes an impression on me. It must be the combination of symmetry, outline and tasteful decoration. I would
love to hear all of these sometime - though I realize that might not be possible.
Just seeing them is really a great treat, thank you again.
Take care,
Mavrothi
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Adel Salameh
Oud Junkie
Posts: 235
Registered: 4-18-2008
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a very nice Antoun Nahat oud in excellent condition too.
best wishes,
Adel
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liviajacob
Oud Addict
Posts: 32
Registered: 5-11-2010
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| Quote: Originally posted by Alfaraby | OMG !
Livia keeps surprising us over & over again. What a great exposure of Elias Abdo Nahat (1902-1993), RIP. No one on the net has ever seen his face
before today: Palms Sunday 2011, for he didn't use to stick his "nose" in every label, like other did. He just wrote Abdo Nahat & Sons, but never
inked his photo in the label. See for yourselves the labels @ Livia's site.
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Mahraba, ya aziz! Thank u for supporting me. It seems that there was a strong reason that forbade Elias to stamp his face in the labels. Another
member of the family wrote me last week. Elias´ niece. She gave me some new information... Let´s see if she keeps writting or if she gives me her
phone number. It´s common to be emailed by people who show some interesting in helping us.... and suddenly they just disappear (sometimes they help
for a while and them show they are not interested anymore. I just don´t like to imagine myself as a distubing person and I can´t publish stuffs
without people´s agreement. So you see.... it´s not very easy).
Anyway, Elias´picture was really nice!
Mavrothis and Adel, You are right, the oud is just WOW. Do you envy those peoples, Alfaraby? So do I. I also wish I was as lucky as those heirs! )
I fell happy to see how excited you folks are reading the altarab´s updates. Incredibly, Brazilian-arab musicians don´t show 1% of your enthusiasm
about my research. C´est la vie... et c´est le destin. And here I am... back,
despite such things. I would fell worse if I had not re-open the site to post that 4 you.
Have a nice season guys (as I don´t know when I will come back... and if I will come back). Bye bye.
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Alfaraby
Oud Junkie
Posts: 796
Registered: 9-18-2009
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Brazilian Elias Nahat oud (1976) in Nazareth
This evening I had one of the most moving experiences I had with the Nahat ouds issue . An old friend of mine, knowing I suffer from an acute Nahat
fever, invited me to join him in a visit to a friend of his, who had told him he's got a Nahat oud. We dropped in at a very friendly youngman's place,
who, after serving (Brazilian) coffee, brought a big cartoon box from which he pulled out a velvet bag, apparently containing an oud, & showed us
his Nahat : It was a brand new oud, very shiny and a clean soundboard, so I thought to myself: OMG, another replica ?!
"The story of this oud", said the gentleman, is in short : " My parents visited Sao Paulo/ Brazil back in 1976, where my mother was supposed to meet
cousins of hers. One of these cousins was Mrs. Elias Abdo Nahat" !
OMG, I held my breath ... "They had a wonderful time with the old couple, and before leaving, Elias Nahat gave my father an oud of his. My late dad
apologized he doesn't play the oud, but the oldman insisted he'd take the oud and try to play it. He told my old man that this is a handmade of his,
so dad thankfully took the oud and said farewell to the nice couple, hoping to see them again. My parents visited another cousins of my mother's and
didn't have a chance to re meet the Nahats again. Two weeks or so later, they flew back home, leaving the oud at one cousin's home, asking him to
return it to Elias.
After my folks left Brazil, Elias knew they've left the oud in Sao Paolo, so he got very angry saying this oud was a present to my wife's relatives,
how do you let them leave it here ? He took the oud, went to the post office and sent the oud to my father via air mail ! A month or so after my
parents came back, they got an notice from the customs to come over & pick up some item coming from Brazil. Coffee ? Wondered my father ? What
could it be ? He released the item right away to find in this same cartoon the same oud Elias gave him in Sao Paolo. So here it is the present of
Elias to his wife's cousin" End of story !
So here I am holding the first Brazillian Nahat oud in my life. As far as I know it's the only Brazilian Nahat oud ever seen in Palestine &/or
Israel, "It's brand new", I said & our host replied : "It is ! It has been kept like this for the last 35 years in the same cartoon sent by Elias
ever since and no one ever played it but me once I tried to learn how to play and shortly quit" .
The bowl is made of an unknown wood to me, pretty heavy, the soundboard is B' class spruce, the roses are handmade ivory on wood, the fingerboard is
ivory inlay in ebony, the bridge is the same we see in other Nahats', the pickguard is ebony ...
Unfortunately, I couldn't play the oud. The strings were old & worn out producing dull sound, but after all it sounded just like any other new
oud, or unplayed oud for 35 years.
What a pity !
Take a look !
Yours indeed
Alfaraby
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Adel Salameh
Oud Junkie
Posts: 235
Registered: 4-18-2008
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This is a great find my friend Alfaraby....excellent Job....
I have 2 things to say here
this forum has been of a great inspiration to all of us who wants to know more about this beautiful instrument....Playing the oud or the history of
it.....
This also tells us, that we no longer have a great deal of nahat ouds in the Arab world, and we have to wait until somebody from the USA or Europe to
sell thier ouds to find the beauty of these instruments.... 2 examples are Marcus , few years ago has sold a beautiful George Nahat coming from
Germany.... today we have Franck from France selling another great Abdo on this very Forum.
Another point also to say that Palestinain people have the best Nahat ouds in the World and when a Palestinian hold a great Nahat in his /her
Hand..... that oud will never ever go...it stays with the person.
Thank you Alfaraby for this beauty....while you about it..... may be you can post the other Abdo oud in Nazareth.
Take good care and all the best wishes to all of you.
Adel
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myeyes2020
Oud Junkie
Posts: 172
Registered: 10-5-2007
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| Quote: Originally posted by Adel Salameh | | Another point also to say that Palestinain people have the best Nahat ouds in the World and when a Palestinian hold a great Nahat in his /her
Hand..... that oud will never ever go...it stays with the person. |
Does this mean that if a Palestinian is selling a Nahat, then it is probably not a great Nahat and perhaps we shouldn't consider buying it?
Adel
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Adel Salameh
Oud Junkie
Posts: 235
Registered: 4-18-2008
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Nahat oud has to be protected....any one has a nahat oud should keept it to her/himself.
best wishes,
Adel
http://www.adelsalameh.com
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Ararat66
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1025
Registered: 11-14-2005
Location: Portsmouth, UK
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Mood: mellow yellow
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OK then ... being half Armenian I think it's only fair that I should step up to the mark and announce that I will undertake to accept all your spare
Karybians and Bedrossians from around the world into my safe keeping.
... you know it makes sense
Leon
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ALAMI
Oud Junkie
Posts: 643
Registered: 12-14-2006
Location: Beirut
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Mood: No Mood
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Leon,
I am Sending you half of the LEON Stanbuli oud, which half do you prefer?
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