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Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 2918
Registered: 1-30-2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
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Mood: Stringish
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Quote: Originally posted by shareen  | To Brian Prunka on his comment:
Brian, I will explain. First of all, I am blessed to live in a musical bubble: the Hudson Valley. There are many artists, musicians and other free
thinking out of the box people are absolutely facinated with the oud. They can't get enough of my rudimentary playing. I tell them I play oud like
George Harrison played sitar and they get it. For the real stuff, listen to Simon or Ara or Marcel, etc. etc. But I am getting people interested in
it, which I think is great. Regarding tuning the oud like a guitar to play in ensembles. What can I tell you. I am a jerk with reading. Always
have been. It's a challenge for me to read anyway. To have to transpose reading on the oud from my guitar brain is nearly impossible for me.
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I get that, and that's all good. I think if you spent a little time reading on oud though, it's probably not as hard as you think.
For one thing, the A D G courses are the same already, and the C is just one semitone higher than the B string. The only real oddball is the low F
course. If you tune low G, then it's the same finger positions as the high G (which you already know).
| Quote: | What you are saying, however, would neccicate Turkish oud players to use and Arabic oud to play Arabic music? A note is a note, is it not? Concert
pitch is concert pitch. If you are talking about having to play Arabic music with an Arabic oud for the low resonances of an Arabic oud, then that is
a different story. Why can't I tune my oud to to make it easy for me to play the music? What does it matter? I am not looking for it to sound or
play like a guitar. I only want to make it easier for me to read music.
I appreciate your thoughts and really welcome them.  |
Actually, yes, if Turkish and Arabic oud players played together they would likely retune to the same tuning, at least on the top 4 courses.
In oriental music, a note is not a note, the way we think of it. The note names are actually the positions: nawa (neva) is the open
second string, regardless of the pitch it's tuned to. Rast is the third semitone on the 4th course, etc.
When Turkish and Arab play the same piece, they finger it the same (usually) but it comes out in different keys. For an Arab player, "Rast"
usually sounds concert C, while for a Turkish player it usually sounds concert D. The notion of "concert pitch" is pretty much irrelevant in this
music. I have recordings where the whole ensemble is tuned down a whole step (i.e., the oud is G C F Bb).
The different characteristics of the way the notes are fingered on the instrument are an essential part of the character of the music.
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
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I don't follow the whole issue of reading on oud like on guitar. Bass and Oud have a regular tuning in ascending 4ths (except sometimes for the drone
strings), and is mostly played in "first position". This is much more natural for me than guitar with its one odd string and long neck. But to really
"get it" with Arabian music, it helps to realize that notes an octave apart are not considered "the same". When western notation is used, it's
understood to be a shorthand, nothing more.
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shareen
Oud Junkie
Posts: 218
Registered: 8-28-2007
Location: Upstate New York
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Brian, you taught me something I didn't realize. That rast or naha is as much a position as it is the essence of the maquam. So when I am sitting in
an ensemble situation and playing, say, a samai, the music written, for lack of a better way to express is, is written in western notation except of
course, the half flats, and those are still written, for all intents and purposes, ln western notation. If the samai is in nahawand, and I am reading
the music, and my oud is tuned like a guitar, the notes I use will simply be in a different position on the oud than if it was tuned to say, standard
Arabic tunic, CGDAFC. I am still playing a samai in Nahawand, then, am I not? I'm just fingering it differently. Please explain or let me know if
you disagree.
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
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Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
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I myself am a bit confused about the term standard arabic tuning. On guitar tuning is clearly defined, but when I just have a look on oud
string choice, the confusion starts:
Let's just have a look at Pyramid strings, the orange 650/11 set ... Kkalaf Oud Luthiery in the US says, the 11-string set is CFFAAddggc'c', but the
german manufacturer documents the same set as CGGAAddggc'c' ... custom tunings available on special order.
???
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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MatthewW
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1031
Registered: 11-5-2006
Location: right here
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QUOTE: Originally posted by Shareen:
Why can't I tune my oud to make it easy for me to play the music?
Shareen's point of view regarding the way she wishes to tune her oud? Fair enough, any oud player or in fact any musician can choose how to play
whatever instrument they wish and tune it as they wish; if they can get the desired results they are after and are happy, and are able to play well in
that tuning with others, then c'est la vie. 
Shareen, if you have more than one oud then maybe tune each one differently: one to traditional Arabic/Turkish and work on that side of oudability,
and the other one to guitar/own preference and play it as you like.
Aymara also notes, 'using a different tuning is not the point, because there are several different arabian tunings used nowadays'. I'll take that one
step further by adding, as that great American musician Duke Ellington said: in the end "it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing". And 'that
swing' is more often than not independent of any particular tuning, but more on the ability to play with meaning and expression in whatever
tuning you are in. regards, MW
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Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 2918
Registered: 1-30-2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Member Is Offline
Mood: Stringish
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| Quote: Originally posted by shareen | | Brian, you taught me something I didn't realize. That rast or naha is as much a position as it is the essence of the maquam. So when I am sitting in
an ensemble situation and playing, say, a samai, the music written, for lack of a better way to express is, is written in western notation except of
course, the half flats, and those are still written, for all intents and purposes, ln western notation. If the samai is in nahawand, and I am reading
the music, and my oud is tuned like a guitar, the notes I use will simply be in a different position on the oud than if it was tuned to say, standard
Arabic tunic, CGDAFC. I am still playing a samai in Nahawand, then, am I not? I'm just fingering it differently. Please explain or let me know if
you disagree. |
Shareen, there's no easy answer to your question. Is it possible to play in a different fingering and still play the essence of the maqam? Yes,
though I expect this will prove a practical impossibility for all but the most accomplished oudis (I bet Mav can do it . . .)
The maqam is more than the notes, there are ornaments and expressive devices that are tied to the physical structure of the oud in various
positions.
In addition, the intonation of the various notes is related to the tuning. The open E string you've tuned to has no place in the common maqamat,
except for Kurd or Bayati on A or Nahawand on D. The E used in Ajam or Hijaz on C, for example is quite different. Anything you play on that E
string will be very difficult to play in tune (this is partly why violinists tune their E down to D).
re: standard tuning, I regard the Arabic standard tuning as: all fourths on the top four (i.e., 1-4) courses, with the fifth and sixth course
variable.
The variations are mainly limited to a few options: octaves below the 1st-2nd courses (e.g., CGADGC), octaves below the 2nd-3rd courses (e.g.,
DGADGC), or 2 octaves down from the 1st course and a 12th down from the 1st course (CFADGC).
The exact concert pitch is irrelevant as long as everyone agrees where nawa (second course on the oud) is. Most Arabic music written in western
notation assumes that nawa is G, but the actual tuning could be F#, F, C, Bb, or somewhere in between.
I disagree that there are many different tunings being used. there are many different references for the concert pitch of the instrument, but the
essential aspects of the tuning rarely exhibit much, if any, variation beyond what I've listed above.
Occasionally, one of the strings is tuned slightly different for a particular piece.
for example, the 5th course could be tuned a fourth below the third course, most likely if one was playing a maqam where the open 4th course is the
tonic. (if nawa is G, it would be (low to high): X E A D G C, maqam on A)
Sounbati and Qassabji were known to tune the 4th course a M3 below the 3rd course, for maqam Hijazkar kurd. (If nawa is G, it would be: C G Bb D G C,
with maqam on C)
There is more variation in Turkish/Ottoman tuning, as I understand, but even that primarily concerns the 5th and 6th courses or using a different
reference pitch.
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ameer
Oud Junkie
Posts: 458
Registered: 9-14-2009
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Brian,
Thanks for clarifying what I always thought had to be true but never confirmed.
Whenn you speak of the "essence" of the maqam, does that include the ease with which one can emphasize and modulate using certain notes? I.E. assuming
nawa is G, one would normally play nahawand on C and make use of the upper g. But if one tries to transpose nahawand up a tone to D, it then becomes
much easier to swing down to the lower open A rathre than the higher A. I suppose then that if one did try to swing down towards A for Hijaz then they
would really be playing Hijaz on A rather than Nahawand on D.
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