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Sazi
Oud Junkie
Posts: 786
Registered: 9-17-2007
Location: Behind my oud
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Mood: مبتهج ; ))
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Quote: Originally posted by Aymara  |
Ok, on the 12-string I use steel strings ... would the difference be greater with wound nylon? Would flatwound nylon sound too dull?
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Apparently not...
413 P Studio - A unique design, the 413P studio set has high-density nylon trebles and polished wound basses. The worlds first noise free classical
guitar strings. Our stone grinding process helps eliminate the harsh squeaking when shifting positions or playing a glissando.
From the Labella website. they're not for oud though.
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FLIPAX
Oud Junkie
Posts: 311
Registered: 10-13-2009
Location: Dubai, U.A.E
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Mood: Bayyati Shuri.....
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Hey Guys Thanks for the Comments....
Can anybody Comment on Savarez Nylon Trebles
One Says the Sound is also Sharper and good attack........
Anybody has Savarez String on their oud?
Thanks
Philip
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Sazi
Oud Junkie
Posts: 786
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Location: Behind my oud
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Mood: مبتهج ; ))
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Sorry Philip, I only use the KF trebles from Savarez so I can't help you there.
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paulO
Oud Junkie
Posts: 531
Registered: 9-8-2004
Location: California
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Mood: Utz
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Hi Philip,
You're going to need to try all these different strings if you want an answer for your specific oud. It takes time and money, and you have a lot of
left over strings. I ended up giving all my extras to a classical guitar player. Also, if you need sharpness of sound, you might try some different
risha's or re-shape one end of your risha...just something else to play with. Good luck.
Regards..PaulO
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freya
Oud Junkie
Posts: 275
Registered: 2-8-2004
Location: Asheville NC
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Mood: Happy in the mountains of WNC
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Differences between PVF strings
I'm posting an excerpt from one of the classical guitar forum's that is no longer available for direct viewing. It points out differences between
various "carbon" strings (which by implication seem to be PVF) and suggests Japanese high-end fishing leader as an alternative. I have used the
Japanese line on a dozen or so ouds and prefer it, in most cases to nylon or nylgut (though nylgut is a good alternative for certain tonal
preferences). I have not had a strings failure yet and have strung one pro player's instrument with it. He shreds a set of wound strings in a few
months but the Seaguar shows little wear. I use 0.52mm and 0.66mm for the C and G respectively in Arabic tuning (tension looked reasonable in Arto's
calculator). In any case you can read what one classical player concluded...
[QUOTE]
Beyond Nylon: Fluorocarbon
The other important development was the invention by the Japanese chemical company Kureha in the 1970s of fluorocarbon polyfilament fishing line. (The
Japanese take fishing very seriously.) This is the same type of material used in the so-called "carbon" strings which are available from Savarez
Alliance, Oasis, Galli Carbonio, and other manufacturers. (We speculate that following the freon ban, the chemical companies started researching
alternative uses for fluorocarbon compounds.)
Advantages of Fluorocarbon: The advantage over nylon is increased volume and brilliance. There is one additional benefit, which is that fluorocarbon
is not as temperature sensitive as nylon. As any working guitarist knows, nylon strings go out of tune when a door is opened, the sun comes out, the
wind changes, or the furnace kicks on. A small temperature change affects the solid nylon trebles, which go sharp when the temperature goes up and
flat when it drops, while the basses remain at pitch. This can be a real pain during an outdoor gig, or when playing near the door of a restaurant in
the wintertime. Fluorocarbon strings are less sensitive in this respect. Both nylon and fluorocarbon are an improvement on gut, which is also
sensitive to changes in humidity.
Issues with manufactured fluorocarbon strings: We have tried all three of the brands mentioned above. Savarez Alliance, which was introduced in the
1980's, is still the best of these. We have had various problems with bad intonation and / or delamination of the strings with all of them, which
means there's room for improvement. Since the material is a polyfilament, it is possible for fibers to begin to separate from the string and it
quickly becomes un-usable. We experimented with Galli and Oasis carbon strings in late 2007 and early 2008.
Galli Carbonios sound very nice for a very short time, but delaminate quickly (the high E string went after only 4 hours of use in our second trial);
they are not (yet) reliable enough for professional use.
Oasis Carbon strings are not uniform and so the intonation is poor, and they also suffer from delamination (after 3 weeks of use in our trial).
Until recently, Savarez Alliance was our string of choice, notwithstanding the cost — almost twice that of nylon — and the fact that the high E
strings are frequently irregular in diameter. Savarez will also show the same type of delamination eventually, but never (in our experience) in less
than five weeks, which is a reasonable amount of time for a string to last. The occasional irregular high E string is a definite bummer which means
discarding the entire set. (But read more, below, for a new solution to this problem!) Also, the treble strings have excessive high overtones, and on
some guitars, particularly spruce tops, they have a kind of "pingy" quality. In spite of these issues, we have used Savarez Alliance off and on, with
various guitars, for about 20 years.
Hannabach also makes a "carbon" string, but we haven't tried it yet.
A New Source:
Thanks to a tip from a helpful poster on the Delcamp guitar forum, we found fluorocarbon fishing leader made by Kureha's subsidiary Seaguar, which is
readily available from fishing supply stores online in 25 meter reels and in a variety of diameters. We ordered six reels in the most likely
diameters, based on calculations of the density / diameter / pitch / tension equation, using an online string tension calculator for estimates. We
received the order in early May 2008 and at this writing have been using the strings for one month with excellent results. Of course these are only
treble strings! (We bought some sets of Hannabach basses to use with them from Strings and Beyond for $5 USD per set, which we are perfectly happy
with.) For the first two weeks we used a low tension set, and then changed to higher tension (more about tensions and gauges below).
The Seaguar strings are loud but well-balanced, and lack the "pingy" quality which the Savarez Alliance has. They are very temperature stable; we just
played an outdoor gig where the sun moved and we found ourselves playing in full sun after starting in the shade, and (amazingly!) there was almost no
change in the pitch. At this writing, we have had the high tension Seaguar strings on our guitars for one month, with no intonation troubles and no
sign of delamination.
Also, consider this: we have a 25 meter roll of this material for each of the treble strings. We can easily decide to just change one string without
worrying about breaking a packaged set — just unroll another one off the roll!
Fluorocarbon is a little more slippery than nylon, so we have found that it pays to melt the string end into a little ball at the bridge end to keep
the knot from slipping.
About Gauges and Tensions:
We are using 650 mm scale length guitars. We bought 6 gauges of Seaguar fishing leader: .47mm, .52mm, .62mm, .66mm, .74mm, and .91mm. These are the
gauges that we found available within the likely range of diameters suited for guitar strings. (You can try to use "pounds test" figures for guidance,
but diameter measurements are more useful. Some fishing supply websites give diameters, in either thousandths of an inch, millimeters to 2 decimals,
or both, and others give only the "pounds test" figures.) As it turns out, we can get a light gauge set and a heavy gauge set from these, as follows:
Light Gauge Set of Seaguar Trebles:
• Seaguar .47mm E string = 5.816 kg tension
• Seaguar .62mm B string = 5.68 kg
• Seaguar .74mm G string = 5.098 kg
Heavy Gauge Set of Seaguar Trebles:
• Seaguar .52mm E string = 7.12 kg tension
• Seaguar .66mm B string = 6.437 kg
• Seaguar .91mm G string = 7.709 kg
We started cautiously with the light gauge set. They sounded very good, and were very easy to play and very responsive, but after two weekends of
gigs, we decided they didn't have quite enough punch and so we switched to the higher tension. We've now been playing on those for four solid weeks
and they are still going strong. We'll update this page with a fresh report when we find it necessary to change them.
If you want to experiment cautiously, try buying just a spool of .52mm (35 pound test) line for your high E string (about $16 USD). You can replace
the E string on a set of Savarez Alliance (or any other brand of string, for that matter) with the Seaguar E string and see if you like it.
Our Online Source for Seaguar Strings:
We ordered online from Fish307.com — the online Fishing Tackle Superstore in New York State in the United States. Here's the direct link to Seaguar
fishing leader.
The cost of these strings averages out, with shipping, to about $3.50 USD a set of trebles, with the high tension G string being the most expensive at
about $30 a 25-meter reel, the others less.
http://www.guitar-vacation-retreats.com/resources/fluorocarbon_stri...
http://oasishumidifiers.com/carbon_strings.html
http://www.delcamp.net/forum/en/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=27823&...
[END QUOTE]
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FLIPAX
Oud Junkie
Posts: 311
Registered: 10-13-2009
Location: Dubai, U.A.E
Member Is Offline
Mood: Bayyati Shuri.....
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| Quote: Originally posted by freya |
I use 0.52mm and 0.66mm for the C and G respectively in Arabic tuning (tension looked reasonable in Arto's calculator).
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Thanks Freya!
Does all here used the same gauge on C & G?
Is .52mm= C, .66mm=G is Standard? Light or Normal Tensions...
BTW Kelly said this Regarding Pyramid Orange Vs kurschner nylon trebles
Pyramids-orange label nylon by way of comparison.( I'm not aware that they do nylgut.) I find them a little heavy and dull- not as responsive
generally as the Kurschner or Mari.
The kurschner nylon trebles by the way are just newly installed and play with much more response and attack than the Pyramids.
Thanks kelly for the info.
Im Making A General survey if anyone can HELP!!!
Im looking for a C & G nylon trebles: Which has the lighter feel not tight. and brighter than normal sound. Good alternative to PVF trebles.
Also which you can find in normal sets. not customised gauges.
Please check the List.......
BRAND = ?
High & Low Tensions = ?
Nylon Treble Sound = ?
Examples: Good Brands That I have Used so far.
BRANDS:
1. Pyramid
Orange Sets
HIGH & LOW TENSIONS
Nice Loose Feel on
the Bottom I thinks its Light in the Top as Well
NYLON TREBLE SOUND
Dull not responsive, Has a round flat sound.
2. Labella
HIGH & LOW TENSIONS
Perfect Balance
Basses not tight or
Loose. Trebles are Quite Normal tension not Light.......
NYLON TREBLE SOUND
Good attack but
Little round Sound
When Played Quietly
Not Long Sustain.
3.????????
4.????????
5.???etc...etc
PLEASE HELP MAKE SURVEY.............
This can also help some people who are looking for a specific sound for strings etc.....etc.....
Shukran
YEAH! GodBless All The Players Here!
Shalom,
Philip
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FLIPAX
Oud Junkie
Posts: 311
Registered: 10-13-2009
Location: Dubai, U.A.E
Member Is Offline
Mood: Bayyati Shuri.....
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Thanks Again Guys!!!!!
Salamat,
Philip
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Sazi
Oud Junkie
Posts: 786
Registered: 9-17-2007
Location: Behind my oud
Member Is Offline
Mood: مبتهج ; ))
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"Fluorocarbon is a little more slippery than nylon, so we have found that it pays to melt the string end into a little ball at the bridge end to keep
the knot from slipping. "
Thanks, that's good advice, I've had a few top f's slip out on me in the middle of something... sure breaks the mood of a piece!
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FLIPAX
Oud Junkie
Posts: 311
Registered: 10-13-2009
Location: Dubai, U.A.E
Member Is Offline
Mood: Bayyati Shuri.....
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| Quote: Originally posted by Sazi |
Thanks, that's good advice, I've had a few top f's slip out on me in the middle of something... sure breaks the mood of a piece!
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Yeah!
Its Better to Melt that Nylon end. It happened to me In Pyramid Nylon F's. It always Slips
I also Melt the other end of the strings from the pegbox so it does not slip.
Anybody Can Help On The Survey Of Strings?
Care to comment about the strings your Using now?
Shalom,
Philip
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
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Mood: No Mood
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Hi again,
I have great news about Kürschner strings:
I had a phone call with Mr. Kürschner and talked about this tuning. He told me, that he has already been informed by other oud players, that this
tuning isn't arabic. He plans on updating the web site accordingly.
But now the best news:
I also asked him, what I'll have to pay, if I order a special tuning. He said that depends on the details.
i told him, that I'm currently undecided, if I should order C-F-A-d-g-c (which I currently use) or C-E-A-d-g-c instead. He asked me to fill out the
order form on his website as soon as I'm decided, which of this tunings I want to order and he will then manufacture the strings especially for my
oud's dimensions and I'll have to pay the same price he has listed for his standard 11-string arabic set on his website.
Isn't that great service?
So I would recommend to everybody, who is interested in Kürschner strings, to drop Mr. Kürschner an email and ask for details. He's a nice helpful
man!
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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FLIPAX
Oud Junkie
Posts: 311
Registered: 10-13-2009
Location: Dubai, U.A.E
Member Is Offline
Mood: Bayyati Shuri.....
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Hey Chris I sent you an U2U man
How Life and Music?
I had a Bad experience Though........
Good to hear That Mr. Kürschner replied.
Have a healthy long Life man!
Cheers,
Philip
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
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Mood: No Mood
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I already answered 
| Quote: | | How Life and Music? |
I make good progress on learning oud and that's much fun ... but I play Europian music ... Rock and Pop ... strange for an oud, but that's exactly,
what fascinates me.
| Quote: | | I had a Bad experience Though........ |
Show us a photo in the forum and I bet the gurus will tell you, that it's nothing to really worry about.
Best wishes!
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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FLIPAX
Oud Junkie
Posts: 311
Registered: 10-13-2009
Location: Dubai, U.A.E
Member Is Offline
Mood: Bayyati Shuri.....
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Nice to hear about the progress....
Music should be fun and comes from the Heart, It does not really matter which level you are in.......
Cheers
Philip
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
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Mood: No Mood
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My girlfriend doesn't cry and listens when I play ... a good sign, I think
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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FLIPAX
Oud Junkie
Posts: 311
Registered: 10-13-2009
Location: Dubai, U.A.E
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Mood: Bayyati Shuri.....
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Good thing...
BTW how's Your String Thing Question Addario Set?
Did u Change it Already?
Philip
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
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No, I'll order Kürschner strings tomorrow ... I wasn't quite shure about the tuning yesterday, but I decided to stay with C-F-A-d-g-c ... and if I
should like to use the E instead of F some day, I can easily downtune that single course ... it's just a half tone, so the tension loss is minimal.
Regarding D'Addario ... this set isn't harmful for my oud as it seems, because my string length is only 59cm. But though the wounded strings are ok,
the two blank nylon courses are not that crisp in sound as I would like them.
I'll switch to Kürschner PVF, which are far better than D'Addario.
Better sound, more fun
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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FLIPAX
Oud Junkie
Posts: 311
Registered: 10-13-2009
Location: Dubai, U.A.E
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Mood: Bayyati Shuri.....
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Its the most versatile Tuning known to Mankind  LOL!
| Quote: Originally posted by Aymara |
... and if I should like to use the E instead of F some day, I can easily downtune that single course ... it's just a half tone, so the tension loss
is minimal.
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The F = One Strings is Awesome so and its easy to change from F to E or Vise-verse
But for me I use F down to D and C sometimes depending on the makam. and also the String Tension Capacity.
Cheer mate!
Philip
P:S:
Any more Suggestions Regarding PVF Strings? Other Alternative Brands?
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
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Hi Philip!
Yes, but there are individual preferences as it seems. Some people tune the F course to E, others to G instead. The later is the tuning used in
Pyramids orange set.
| Quote: | | Any more Suggestions Regarding PVF Strings? |
I would expect the PVF trebbles to sound most crisp, so I think the Kürschner strings will be most to your liking. Lute strings have a much warmer,
soft sound even on the wounded strings.
But depending on the oud design, PVF trebbles might sound a bit like a flamenco guitar ... which we know well from Naseer Shamma.
Maybe others have different opinions?
But as others said before ... if you want to be shure, which strings are most to your liking, you will try them yourself, because even the best
strings will sound slightly different on different ouds.
As I already told you by U2U ... if I were you, I would order Kürschner nylon strings and the PVF trebble courses too, which only costs 6.50€ more.
Then you are on the safe side, have very good strings especially made for YOUR oud and you have the chance to compare nylon to PVF for yourself and
keep that trebble strings, that you like most.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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FLIPAX
Oud Junkie
Posts: 311
Registered: 10-13-2009
Location: Dubai, U.A.E
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Mood: Bayyati Shuri.....
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Thanks Always Chris!
Your The Man!
Thanks Again for the Enlightenment!
Philip
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Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 2918
Registered: 1-30-2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
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Mood: Stringish
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| Quote: | We have had various problems with bad intonation and / or delamination of the strings with all of them, which means there's room for improvement.
Since the material is a polyfilament, it is possible for fibers to begin to separate from the string and it quickly becomes un-usable. We experimented
with Galli and Oasis carbon strings in late 2007 and early 2008.
Galli Carbonios sound very nice for a very short time, but delaminate quickly (the high E string went after only 4 hours of use in our second trial);
they are not (yet) reliable enough for professional use. |
This is exactly the problem I had when I tried PVF strings, they would fall apart after 1 day of playing!
So far, my favorite treble strings are D'addario rectified nylon. They're not the same as what comes in the 'oud' set. The Pyramid nylon
strings are rectified, too, but have a slightly less focused sound to my ears.
.024 and .028 are the gauges I use. Depends on the oud, though.
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ameer
Oud Junkie
Posts: 458
Registered: 9-14-2009
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I use .024 and .029 D'addarios myself, though I'm thinking of bringing the first course down to a .023 for a somewhat more consistent tension next
time I swap strings. I also want to give Aquilas another shot... this truely calls for a second oud.
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
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| Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka |
This is exactly the problem I had when I tried PVF strings, they would fall apart after 1 day of playing!
So far, my favorite treble strings are D'addario rectified nylon. They're not the same as what comes in the 'oud' set.
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Very interesting, because I like on the D'Addario set the wounded strings, but find the nylons a bit flat sounding. And I didn't know of the short
life of PVF strings.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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Sazi
Oud Junkie
Posts: 786
Registered: 9-17-2007
Location: Behind my oud
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Mood: مبتهج ; ))
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Neither did I and I use Savarez PVF, but the amount of playing my oud gets I change them every couple of months, I've (touch oud) never had a string
de-laminate yet... maybe they've improved in the last year or so?
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FLIPAX
Oud Junkie
Posts: 311
Registered: 10-13-2009
Location: Dubai, U.A.E
Member Is Offline
Mood: Bayyati Shuri.....
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Thanks Brian!
Lovely Site though!
Good Information and Practice Notes Sheets!
Can anybody comment with thier PVF String Life Span?
Thanks Again,
Philip
P:S:
BTW Sazi whats the diameter gauges of your PVF Trebles?
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Sazi
Oud Junkie
Posts: 786
Registered: 9-17-2007
Location: Behind my oud
Member Is Offline
Mood: مبتهج ; ))
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I don't think the guages I use will be relevant to you as all my ouds are floating bridge, but I started with ff's .0525 & cc's .0625
and changed them to ff's .041 cc's .052 as they felt too tight.
good luck, S
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