Mike's Oud Forums

Attaching face to bowl

Jonathan - 11-27-2009 at 03:38 PM

In the past, when I have made an oud, The face made contact with the bowl via the braces. Also, secondarily, purfling was in contact with both the face, and the bowl, and therefore gave some added stability.

Now I have come to realize that some oud makers keep the entire face in contact with the bowl. That is, not only are the braces giving support, but the entire edge of the face touches the bowl--not only touching the bowl, but extending all the way to the outer rim of the oud. At times, this is really hard to detect, because once the face is glued on, then a channel is removed so that a purfling band can be added. So, if you look really close at the side, you see a super thin band of spruce. really very very very thin.
Any thoughts on this?

DaveH - 11-28-2009 at 03:27 AM

http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=7172#pid456...

DaveH - 11-28-2009 at 03:34 AM

Also, jdowning's current thread on "making a half-binding tool"

Matthias - 11-28-2009 at 04:38 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Jonathan  
... So, if you look really close at the side, you see a super thin band of spruce. really very very very thin.
Any thoughts on this?


Dear Jonathan,

this way of working is standart in european lute making. I do this too in my ouds.

Regards Matthias

Jonathan - 11-28-2009 at 04:42 AM

Thanks, guys. Somehow I missed the earlier threads. In my mind, I'm still not sure how much of a benefit this is, but I really want to give it a shot next time around. I wish I could come up with some sort of a jig for a router (or dremel with router attachment). Otherwise, I can see this taking a long long time.
I appreciate the help.

SamirCanada - 11-28-2009 at 05:17 AM

It takes really a lot of guts and confidence to do this because. you cant inspect the bond between the bowl and the braces and if there is a little gap then you cannot fill it in with a sliver of spruce and hide glue like I sometimes have to do.

jdowning - 11-28-2009 at 01:38 PM

There are router attachments available for 'Dremel' type tools that might do the job of cutting an accurate banding rebate (guitar makers use them) and I don't think that they are that expensive. All a matter of choice.
I like to work slowly 'by hand' but this might not be fast enough for someone trying to make a living from making instruments.
However - either way - no room for error in cutting a rebate on an instrument that is essentially complete.

Jonathan - 11-28-2009 at 03:23 PM

For me, it's not really a matter of time, it's just that I might be more accurate with a router. Not sure. I can't believe I missed the thread. Thanks

SamirCanada - 11-29-2009 at 07:52 AM

Ok if I may keep this thread alive by asking one more question.
how do you make sure that the braces fit 100% from.

first measuring them and fitting them on the bowl.
second gluing them to the top.
third mounting the top and arriving with a perfect final fit.

I use hide glue so when its time to put the top on I always have to heat the joints with a heat gun so that the glue becomes liquid again and then I press the joints together.

I never know 100% that the fit it nice and tight until I remove enough material from the edges to see that the braces all make contact with the side of the bowl. And sadly I always get 1 or 2 brace joints that didnt quite connect and I have to go reinforce the joints with slivers of spruce or cedar depending.
This has happened in the making of Jameel's first oud so I wonder how he addressed this in the next ouds.

jdowning - 11-29-2009 at 01:32 PM

I first glue braces to sound board (to ensure the correct geometrical layout), mark the brace end positions (by placing the bowl over the sound board) and individually fit each brace end to the bowl sides by sense (feel and sound) - see page 9 of 'Old Oud - New Project'. It takes (for me) time and patience to do a good job. No problem if too much material is removed from the end of a brace - just add a sliver of veneer and refit. Repeat as many times as necessary - the great advantage of working with wood!

Once the sound board brace ends have all been fitted, the next step is to register the sound board to bowl with two small wooden pins - one at the bottom end of the bowl, the other at the neck end - so that the sound board may be quickly and accurately aligned to the bowl during the hot gluing operation where speed is of the essence. This is how the 16th/17th C lute makers did it. The wooden pins
(toothpicks are good for this) are located where they will not show later (e.g. within the edge banding rebate of the sound board or on the neck).

The re-melting of the hide glue in the sound board and brace ends joints should be done with a thin hot spatula inserted into the joint - bit by bit - as well as using a hot iron. I don't think that a heat gun is a good tool for this job as the heat for remelting the glue joints must be quite localised.