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The expert who unfortunately had so strong hate for Bashir and floating bridge equipped ouds went mental.

Hehe

Imagine Munir Bashir and Mohammad Fadel weren't the inventors of the floating bridge in the late 1950ies, but were inspired by this image to reintroduce the floating bridge.

That would be bad news for Bashir and/or floating bridge haters, who might call floating bridge ouds "hybrids" or "not real ouds".

But who cares ... I think, we should try to keep this discussion free of emotions and concentrate on the question, if the floating bridge might have a longer history as usually documented.

For that reason I tried to find out hints, what inspired Bashir and Fadel to build the first "modern" floating bridge ... so far without luck.

Ronny Andersson - 11-29-2009 at 05:54 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Aymara

The expert who unfortunately had so strong hate for Bashir and floating bridge equipped ouds went mental.

Hehe

Yaroub told me about how the Bashir oud was reinvented ;-)
It was during the period Bashir lived in Beirut. The bridge came off the soundboard right before a concert for Bashir. The hide glue combined with high humidity and also the high string tension used to give his standard ouds problems. I think he should be quite frustrated.

Fadel had the solution by copying the Neapolitan Mandolin.
So we must thank the Italians!

jass - 11-29-2009 at 06:05 AM

Guys, dont shoot me here.

But my opinion is that Bashir got the floating bridge oud from Gypsy guitarists. The bridge is exactly the same on these guitars and they also have an oval shape for the soundhole. I believe it was an attempt to slide easier into the Western world. Just my opinion, but it would make sense, he was exposed to alot of western musicians and gypsy guitarist from hungry...Just a thought.

Jass

jass - 11-29-2009 at 06:07 AM

Ps. I dont think this painting can be any hard evidence either of the floating bridge. According to the painting the oud didnt have tuning pegs

Aymara - 11-29-2009 at 08:18 AM

Hi Ronny, hi Jass,

maybe it's a combination of both ... the mandolin AND the gypsy guitar.

What, if Bashir said to Fadel to build a floating bridge like on the Gypsy guitar and Fadel made comparisons to the mandolin afterwards? Who knows? So far, all is speculation.

Regarding the painting ... for shure this is no hard evidence for an early floating bridge, but it is a vague indication, which is worth further research ... don't you think so?

BTW ... further research lead to two facts:

1. Pythagoras studied the sound produced by vibrating strings and used a floating bridge similar construction (evidence needed),

2. there are other historic instruments (e.g. the ancient Greek Lyra), that had a floating bridge ...

... which both might have influenced oud luthiers in the distant past. So a historic floating bridge oud might have existed.

No question, that research for evidence is needed.

Ronny Andersson - 11-29-2009 at 08:30 AM

Yaroub is Mohammed Fadel son and what he told me is true. It has nothing to do with any gipsy guitar. All features from the Mandolin was copied to the bent soundboard.

Ronny Andersson - 11-29-2009 at 08:35 AM

Reconstructed Iranian oud

Aymara - 11-29-2009 at 09:17 AM

Yaroub is Mohammed Fadel son and what he told me is true.

Aah, ok, thanks.

Reconstructed Iranian oud

Sorry, but regarding to Iranian Ouds website (see gallery, oud makers, page 5 + 6) this is a barbat made by Ebrahim Ghanbarimehr ... part of the soundboard is made of animal skin ... interesting.

BTW ... thanks for pointing me to this website, which has a lot of interesting information.

FLIPAX - 12-2-2009 at 03:30 PM

Hey Guys!

Floating or not. We should be thankful that floating bridge became popular due to the fact of players using it. e.g. munir bashir, Fadel Shamma etc...etc.. Or else it would be not massly produced. And it will be hard to get it. Nowadays its very common to have a floating. Or I think it is getting more popular than fixed bridge due to the loudness that it creates and the sharpness it gives and extra overtones it adds on the instrument. And Sometimes its almost a "hype" to get a floating OUd.

The Modern we get we can see that the oud is slowly changing its course century by century. who knows next mellenia what the new oud looks like. Maybe no bridge at all!

LOL

As it may seem e.g My oud has a mixed of fixed bridge and floating. and it sounds a cross breed between them.

Check out my Bridge:

[file]12622[/file]

So History seems to be faithfull in terms of more improvement and chance to see if we missed something that we should add in todays society.

Cheers

Philip :airguitar:

Aymara - 12-4-2009 at 11:11 PM

Quote: Originally posted by FLIPAX

Nowadays its very common to have a floating.

And it would be interesting to research, if there was an era in the past, where it was similar.

radixfc - 12-9-2009 at 08:13 AM

this image shows a ghiterna (similar to oud) from 14 th century.
the strings go to the bottom of the bowl, so it would mean a floating bridge, but it´s not painted.
many medieval instruments as citole or bandurria had floating bridge... there is nothing strange in that fact.

jdowning - 12-9-2009 at 08:42 AM

Of course not. Floating bridges were used on a number of early European plucked instruments - particularly those that were metal strung.

However, the question here concerns the history of the floating bridge as it applies to the oud. Just because a Citole, for example, was fitted with a floating bridge it does not follow that ouds ever were (prior to the 1950's that is)

Aymara - 12-9-2009 at 09:29 AM

Just because a Citole, for example, was fitted with a floating bridge it does not follow that ouds ever were (prior to the 1950's that is)

Shure, but it's a nice motivation for further research

Dr. Oud - 12-9-2009 at 10:14 AM

I thought you guys might like to see a pic of the first Bashir oud...1956.

[file]12740[/file]

Aymara - 12-9-2009 at 10:59 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Dr. Oud

... a pic of the first Bashir oud...1956.

Nice ... thanks.

Ronny Andersson - 12-9-2009 at 11:41 AM

Obviously there were lutes during the European Middle Ages with floating bridges.
All these long-necked lutes, which are depicted both in Cantiga de Santa Maria manuscript and many other manuscripts, appear to have soundboards made of skin from the North African tradition. I do not understand why all the reconstructions appear to have soundboards made of wood?
Ouds with floating bridges if they ever existed in the first place, was probably from a much older tradition and certainly not the Medieval European.

jdowning - 12-9-2009 at 12:28 PM

Not wanting to divert attention away from this search for historical evidence of early floating bridge ouds but, for my information (knowing little about modern floating bridge ouds) is the cranked sound board (seen on the image posted by Richard) a feature of this style of oud today or has this been designed out?

The cranked sound board is a feature of the floating bridge, metal strung, Neapolitan Mandolin (that Ronny confirms was the model for the original Bashir oud). It is also a feature, for example, of the strummed, floating bridge, metal strung 17th/18th C Italian Chitarra Battente. Presumably the 'crank' in the sound board below the bridge is designed to increase the downward load on the bridge, and support a higher string tensions, without deflecting the sound board excessively than would be possible with a fixed bridge/flat sound board design?

Aymara - 12-9-2009 at 01:13 PM

The cranked sound board is a feature of the floating bridge, ...

What is this cranked soundboard? Sorry, i didn't understand it.

Isn't the soundboard convex on floating bridge ouds?

Ronny Andersson - 12-9-2009 at 01:28 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Aymara

The cranked sound board is a feature of the floating bridge, ...

What is this cranked soundboard? Sorry, i didn't understand it.

Isn't the soundboard convex on floating bridge ouds?

The first model had a convex soundboard, but also a sharp bend below the bridge.
Sometimes had Bashir an additional bridge for supporting the strings below the main bridge.

you can see the sharp bend at this photo of a mandolin

Ronny Andersson - 12-9-2009 at 01:37 PM

This soundboard design was Fadel alone with for a very long time while other builders preferred the traditional flat soundboard for some reason. Unfortunately, I must say when Fadel instruments do not have the problems that others can get.
I have had Fadel oud as a friend now owns. What is interesting to note is that when you loosen the strings on this oud, so rises the soundboard at the bridge area a lot and bulging outwards. There is never a depression in the soundboard on M Fadel oud.
Imagine an identical pressure on a flat soundboard, what will happen?
Mohammed Fadel son Yaroub explained for me about the differences between his own ouds and his fathers. His own which are reinforced in order to cope with this type of bridge combined with a flat soundboard.
I know that Yaroub ouds are very strong and can handle a very high string pressure .
Of course one can build with a flat soundboard but it seems that many oudmakers do not take into account the problems this type of bridge can cause.

Aymara - 12-10-2009 at 09:00 AM

Imagine an identical pressure on a flat soundboard, what will happen?

Exactly what Edward Powell reported about his new hybrid instrument ... the bridge will "sink" into the soundboard repectively the soundboard will bend inwards and in the worst case break (maybe not at once) ... but that didn't happen with Edward's instrument.

spyros mesogeia - 12-10-2009 at 11:50 AM

FIRST OF ALL....
the incident with the bridge was in France,and that is true.
as for the floating bridge you should search much more on the ancient mediterranean instruments,mostly the tanbouroids.....
ofcourse it's not made by the Italians,but they started to use it alot for practical reasons :Humidity
Also Rohny,many years ago you were telling us that the Only Floating bridge oud was Yaroubs,all the others were not at the same class....
Well.....what do you have to say now,as you are the Bashir type ''Master""
I still have my Dimitris Rapakousios floating bridge ou and sounds amazing....Also Mattas ouds sound amazing,also and others.....
the last 10 years I have changed more than 50 ouds...and I am also occupied with luthiery....so,what I wanna say is that....do you still think the same think?I forgot to mention that most of them are valued more than 3000 euros.....sounding and quality instruments...let us here your opinion my friend....

spyros mesogeia - 12-10-2009 at 12:13 PM

OH,and as for the problems....of the others...maybe...I say maybe the problem was that the instrument didn't have enough of tentions and action to have the attack sound...anyway,I believe that all these are characteristics of one maker,and I think that is not that the general Idea....if someone wants to copy of a mandolin,is not an oud...is a mandolin oud...it's nothing wrong with it....but you can not say that a mandolin is a guitar even if it is on the dimensions of a quitar.....PERSONAL OPINION OFCOURSE....
Oh...by the way...did you hear Jamil Bashir,Munirs Brother...he died very young,and he was playinf with fixed bridge....and I believe that his style was much more Iraqui than Munirs,ofcourse Munir was the Flamengo style Master....but,personally I believe that Jamil was a Master of it...take a look on Youtube...I just love his style.I repeat,Munir is a great Master,but personally Like More Jamil.
Oh did I mention that I have a Floating Bridge oud that I love it?
Did I mention that I also have a fretless luth with floating bridge seven courses with metallic strings?Taso Thodoaraki Thanks man
I suppose that there are and many many other luthiers capable to do Great instruments that they last in time and maybe they sound better than the Brands we know....
Regards to all :wavey:

[file]12746[/file]

Ronny Andersson - 12-10-2009 at 12:26 PM

Try to be to be less rude, but it seems to be your nature and you even can threaten with violence.
Do you remember when you threatened me? That post was quickly removed. Maybe you will understand my feelings for you now?
Next time try to be constructive about instruments instead of this ridiculous crap that you are so good at because I answer you the same way.

FIRST OF ALL....
the incident with the bridge was in France,and that is true.
as for the floating bridge you should search much more on the ancient mediterranean instruments,mostly the tanbouroids.....
ofcourse it's not made by the Italians,but they started to use it alot for practical reasons :Humidity
Also Rohny,many years ago you were telling us that the Only Floating bridge oud was Yaroubs,all the others were not at the same class....
Well.....what do you have to say now,as you are the Bashir type ''Master""
I still have my Dimitris Rapakousios floating bridge ou and sounds amazing....Also Mattas ouds sound amazing,also and others.....
the last 10 years I have changed more than 50 ouds...and I am also occupied with luthiery....so,what I wanna say is that....do you still think the same think?I forgot to mention that most of them are valued more than 3000 euros.....sounding and quality instruments...let us here your opinion my friend....

spyros mesogeia - 12-10-2009 at 12:29 PM

OK ROHNNY
WHATEVER....
JUST CONTINUE AS YOU DO...YOU, POLITE AND CIVILISED PERSON THAT YOU ARE....
HAPPY CHRISTMAS EVERYBODY....
You are the '''Master''''
Regards to All my OUD-BROTHERS :bowdown:

[file]12750[/file]

jdowning - 12-10-2009 at 12:53 PM

Apologies Aymara - 'cranked' sound board was the best description that came to mind at the time! However, Ronny's posting and image of the mandolin explains it very well.
Looking again at the image of the original Bashir oud posted by Richard, the 'crank' in the sound board appears to be much smaller (in depth) proportionally than in a Neapolitan mandolin. This seems to be a compromise - to maximise the 'flat' vibrating area of the sound board yet providing sufficient string clearance (below the bridge) in order to maximise downward tension on the bridge?

spyros mesogeia - 12-10-2009 at 12:57 PM

Aymara - 12-10-2009 at 02:22 PM

Did I mention that I also have a fretless luth with floating bridge seven courses with metallic strings?

Interesting and worth a separate thread, I think ... I would like to hear it.

spyros mesogeia - 12-10-2009 at 02:27 PM

do you use msn or skype?
it will be my pleasure to play it for you if you wish my friend.
Regards
Spyros

Aymara - 12-11-2009 at 06:09 AM

do you use msn or skype?

No, sorry.

spyros mesogeia - 12-11-2009 at 10:54 AM

maybe I will make a recording or a small video.... :shrug:

Regards

Aymara - 12-11-2009 at 11:03 AM

maybe I will make a recording or a small video.... :shrug:

For shure a good idea, because I bet, I'm not the only one being interested to hear it.

Dr. Oud - 12-11-2009 at 05:14 PM

Quote: Originally posted by FLIPAX

... My oud has a mixed of fixed bridge and floating. and it sounds a cross breed between them....

-just to clarify a few things....
Your bridge is glued to the face, but it does have a saddle, like all guitars have. The saddle allows you to adjust the height of the strings at the bridge, but it is fixed in position. The pressure on the soundboard is torsional, or twisting because the bridge is glued to the face. Nothing is "floating" about it.
A floating bridge is NOT glued to the face so the string pressure is perpendicular to the plane of the soundboard, not twisting.
The face of the Bashir design is convex (arched up or out) in both directions: the braces are arched across the face for added strength and resistance to the downward string pressure; and the face is arched downward from the bridge toward the tail to provide more clearance for a sharper string angle at the bridge, this allows higher pressure and more volume. The arched tail replaced the bent or cranked face, perhaps it sounds better, I dunno.
As for the sound or volume, in either design, it is a balance of strength and response. You can make an oud very strong, but then it loses sustain and volume, unless you use heavier gauge strings. If you make it very light, it will be loud, but will fail sooner due to the constant pressure of the strings, whether they are acting on a floating or fixed bridge.

Aymara - 12-12-2009 at 07:12 AM

I think I found a further hint for a medieval floating bridge oud:

Look at this book's (Jack Goody - Islam in Europe) cover ... HERE:

HERE is a larger version of this image.

The Cantigas de Santa Maria medieval-era manuscripts were written during the reign of Alfonso X "El Sabio" (1221-1284) and HERE we find this image again under the list of the black and white illuminations.

What do you think about this?

Ronny Andersson - 12-12-2009 at 09:39 AM

Thanks Richard for your post. I was expecting a post from you when I remember the correspondence we had a few years ago on the subject.
What you says about building a oud but very strong with the loss of sustain and volume must be something I think we can see/hear in many ouds with floating bridges.
Fazwy and Fadel bashir model, are both relatively light and sounds very strong even with low string tension.
Two diametrically different design and interpretation of their builders, but despite that, they have more in common than you might think at first glance.
Despite all the personal, national and conservative views for or against so has the Bashir model become incredibly popular, but I am convinced that it can evolve and improve.

Ronny Andersson - 12-12-2009 at 10:03 AM

Chris, These images are interesting and I test played a reconstruction in the early 80s it had a soundboard of wood, but personally I think they were made of skin. The same decorative patterns on the soundboard are found among North African folk lutes with soundboard made of skin.
This manuscript is very famous for a depicted short-necked lute of the Maghreb tradition but not with floating bridge. It has much in common with the modern kuitra.

Aymara - 12-12-2009 at 12:02 PM

It has much in common with the modern kuitra.

When I look at THIS small image of a kuitra player, I don't think so ... the kuitra seems to be less wide, but the neck also is longer as in the above medieval image.

jdowning - 12-12-2009 at 05:48 PM

These well known images from the 'Cantigas', Aymara, are not of an oud - except in the broad categorisation of a plucked stringed instrument (guitar, mandolin, banjo etc.) as defined by a modern organologist.

What is an oud? Well according to those who wrote about the oud from the 10th to 14th C (and who presumably knew their stuff), state that an oud was made from wood and had a specific, defining, geometry.
The author of the 10th C Arabic 'Risalat al-Misiqi' gives the 'excellent', defining, proportions of an oud. "Its length being half as much again as its width .... and the neck should be a quarter of the length."
Author of the Persian 14th C 'Kantz al-Tuhaf' is consistent in stating that .."the length of the oud should be one and a half times as much as its width ..... and ... the length of the neck should be a quarter of the length of the lute".

The posted images from the Cantigas do not come close to matching these specifications so, presumably, are not images of an oud but of some other instrument.

spyros mesogeia - 12-12-2009 at 10:14 PM

finally
I agree my friend. :wavey:

Aymara - 12-13-2009 at 12:01 AM

The posted images from the Cantigas do not come close to matching these specifications so, presumably, are not images of an oud but of some other instrument.

I interpreted that as a painting error, but ok critics accepted ... the search goes on

PS: Regarding THIS info page the image shows Cantigas guitarras.

jdowning - 12-13-2009 at 06:36 AM

Just for clarification, it is the attached image of instruments from the Cantigas that I was referring to that (to my eye) do not come near to being ouds - judging from the early oud specifications of the same period of history.

The image posted by Ronny is likely meant by the original artist to be an oud but is lacking in geometrical precision and may also be subject to artistic convention - as much of the early iconography is. There are other similar images in the Cantigas that might also be taken to be ouds - all with fixed bridges.
It would surely be odd if the court of Alphonso did not have oud players represented among all of the other non-oud instruments.

Aymara - 12-13-2009 at 12:25 PM