Mike's Oud Forums

Need help for buying oud

Itman - 12-10-2009 at 03:14 PM

Shalom,

my name is igor and i live in germany - hannover.
In my city it is very hard to buy an oud in a store, you can buy pianos, guitars, drums and banjos, but not ouds.

So the only way i have is the internet. I searched at ebay and found 2 ouds:

http://cgi.ebay.com/OUD-BUY-SELL-Handmade-UD-LAVTA-CEM-MC-SAZ-LUTE-...



http://cgi.ebay.de/OUD-BUY-SELL-Handmade-UD-LAVTA-CEM-MC-SAZ-LUTE-M...


Both are about 300€. I expected a good sounding arabic oud.
What ist yours oppinion ? How should i decide ?


Greetings from Germany

Igor

Hamburglu - 12-10-2009 at 04:08 PM

Hello Igor.
I live in Hamburg. My name is Mutlu. Please, not buying from Internet or ebay. This ouds haven t a good sound. We have tested it. I haven t to sell an oud now. But a good friend also in Hamburg have two ouds to sell. First an arabic style oud from Bakhri Daghir for 400 € and a turkish style oud from Yildirim Palabiyik for 500 €. You can test them in Hamburg. Please contact him hakanhatay@hotmail.com

Itman - 12-11-2009 at 08:00 AM

What do you mean, you tested it ?

John Erlich - 12-11-2009 at 08:59 AM

Hi Igor,

I don't know either what Mutlu means when he says he has "tested it," but I agree that buying an oud that you never held in your hands and tried yourself is a bad idea. If you have to buy an oud via the internet, I strongly suggest buying directly (if possible) from one of the many reputable luthiers discussed in this Forum.

Good luck,
John

Aymara - 12-11-2009 at 09:54 AM

Welcome Igor!
Quote: Originally posted by Itman  

my name is igor and i live in germany


A few weeks ago, I was exactly in the same situation and I also had a look at these CEM ouds from Mannheim ... I decided, that they are not a good deal ... cheap factory ouds ... as nearly all ouds being cheaper than 500-600€.

So I visited Sabbassi here from the forum who lives in the Netherlands and builds nice ouds as a hobby ... I'm happy with mine (the rosewood oud).

So maybe contact the guy from Hamburg, let him send you photos and ask for sound files. If you like, what you see and hear, you'll see, if it's worth to take a trip to Hamburg to test them yourself.
Quote: Originally posted by John Erlich  

I don't know either what Mutlu means when he says he has "tested it," ...


I gues he ordered one and sent it back, which is no problem in Germany. When you're not satisfied with a product, which you ordered online, you can send it back within 14 days as long as the product still looks new.

PS: Another german user of this forum wants to sell a Samir Azar floating bridge oud for 700€, if I remember it right. I tested it and it's a great oud, but floating bridge is not the right oud for me.

Itman - 12-11-2009 at 04:08 PM

Thank you for your answers, I think i shoud wait, i know what you mean, if you say i should hold it in my hands befor i buy, because i play classical guitar.

But one question more: how is this ?

http://cgi.ebay.com/New-Professional-Egyptian-Oud-Arabic-Sound-Samp...

Aymara - 12-12-2009 at 12:41 AM

Hi again!
Quote: Originally posted by Itman  
..., i know what you mean, if you say i should hold it in my hands befor i buy, because i play classical guitar.


That's why I would recommend contact to Hamburg or I could inform the other German with the Azar oud to contact you or wait, 'til Sabbassi has the next oud ready.

Maybe he could also help with contact to his friend Khalid Belhaiba in Morocco (HERE an example), who also builds fantastic ouds for a very good price and is his teacher regarding luthiery.
Quote:
But one question more: how is this ?


Search for Gawharet El Fan in these forums to find the answer and have a closer look ... they might be a better choice, than the CEM ouds, but the fingerboard is varnished glossy ... do I need to say more? If you want to buy from this shop, get a Sukar oud ... that would be a much better deal. They have a good reputation and an adjustable neck.

Itman - 12-12-2009 at 03:26 AM

Thank you for helping.

Aymara - 12-12-2009 at 04:14 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Itman  
Thank you for helping.


No problem ... you'll notice, that it's quite normal in these forums ;)

It's a great helpful community here :applause:

Itman - 12-12-2009 at 05:08 PM

Shalom,

today i was in one, for me unknown, musicstore in Hannover. I was surprised, because they had 2 Ouds. The Seller does not know how old they are and where they come from. So I did not know whether they are good, because i can not recognize a good oud.

Then I found a little turkish musicshop, it was closed as i was there, but i saw, that they had lots of saz and one oud, but monday i will ask them for more.

Greetings from Germany

Igor

Igor

Aymara - 12-12-2009 at 11:37 PM

Good morning!
Quote: Originally posted by Itman  
The Seller does not know how old they are and where they come from.


No problem ... take a photo camera with and show us photos of the oud. A further hint is, that most oud luthiers place their label inside the oud behind the large soundhole ... tell us the name of the luthier.
Quote:
So I did not know whether they are good, because i can not recognize a good oud.


HERE you'll find general tips, how to identify a good oud.

A further thing, you should keep in mind is, that though you can tune a Turkish oud arabic, you can't tune an arabic oud Turkish ... the soundboard can't stand the higher tension. And a Turkish oud tuned arabic won't develop that deep bass, that many of us love on arabic ouds.

Visit Youtube and search for "oud" to find tons os oud videos. Listen to as much as possible, as I did. First I compared Turkish to arabic ouds and after I found out, that I prefer the arabic ouds, I concentrated on listening to the sound characteristics of the different oud designs ... floating bridge versus fixed bridge, Iraqi versus Egyptian versus Syrian, etc..

Here are first examples:

Arabic oud

Turkish oud

For better comparison I chose ouds from the same luthier.

Floating bridge oud

Happy listening ;) ... not quite easy, because the sound quality of most videos is far from good.

PS: Info about the most common tunings can be found HERE.

Itman - 12-13-2009 at 03:35 AM

Shalom,

thank you very much for your help. I´ll try to take a photo of the oud, but the inside is not seeable, because there is an ornament. At one oud i saw the manufactor, but it was all in arabic language, which i do not understand.


Thank you about the thing with arabic and turkish ouds, for 2 weeks now i watch videos at youtube, but i did not had a good examples for compareing; the arabic oud is the best instrument in the world :xtreme:

Thanks again and Greetings from Germany

Igor

Aymara - 12-13-2009 at 05:13 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Itman  
..., but the inside is not seeable, because there is an ornament.


You can look through the rosette, if you get close enough. It's even possible to take a photo through the small openings of the rosette, if your camera has a macro mode for close-ups, you hold the lens directly in front of the rosette and enough light shines inside the boul.
Quote:
... the arabic oud is the best instrument in the world :xtreme:


Maybe not the best, but definitly one of the most fascinating instruments ... for thousands of years.

Itman - 12-13-2009 at 07:33 AM

Hi,


i will try on monday or day after tomorrow.

:applause:

David.B - 12-13-2009 at 10:14 AM

Good luck for your new instrument Igor, Chris gave to you great advices :)

Aymara - 12-13-2009 at 12:36 PM

Hey Igor,

did you see THIS?

A Samir Azar oud for 550€ including hard case ... ok, Faladel lives in Spain, but it might be worth a thought, because this luthier has a great reputation.

Itman - 12-15-2009 at 07:56 AM

Shalom,

here are the two ouds i found in hannover

http://www.flickr.com/photos/igoritkin/sets/72157623006313068/

It was impossible to make a foto of the manufacture, but it was a white paper with an arabic letters.
I hope you can tell me something about the ouds.

Greetings

Igor

Aymara - 12-15-2009 at 08:17 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Itman  

I hope you can tell me something about the ouds.


Not much, but I myself would stay away from these ouds, especially the first one ... uaah, what an ugly oud with a varnished soundboard, wrongly stringed (crossing strings in the peg box) and a deep scratch in the fingerboard. And look at the second one ... it needs a new nut, because the distances between the courses are not equal.

How do they sound and how much do they cost? Are they easily tunable and do they hold the tuning?

I would save the money for something better.

Itman - 12-15-2009 at 08:22 AM

The first one i could not tune, the second sounds ok.

Aymara - 12-15-2009 at 09:49 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Itman  
..., the second sounds ok.


Even if it's cheap, I think it's wiser to save that money and buy a good quality oud from the beginning ... starting with a low quality oud might lead to frustration. The nut of the second one isn't ok and who knows what else too, that can't be seen in the photos.

Invest a bit more ... maybe something around 600€ like I did and chances are relatively high, that you will get an oud, that serves you well for a few years and gives you a good start with learning this fantastic instrument.

It's like with your guitar ... if the first one isn't ok, you will have problems learning and might think, you lack talent, though it's only a matter of a bad instrument.

Itman - 12-15-2009 at 11:15 AM

Hi Chris,

you are are, but where shoud i beginn? I know that some people at this very nice forum are selling ouds,
but I need more offer to choose an oud, which fits to my individual taste.


Greetings

Igor

Aymara - 12-15-2009 at 12:09 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Itman  
..., but where shoud i beginn?


Ok, Germany is not the oud land of milk and honey, but there was an offer from Hamburg already, you could also ask Sabbassi, when he'll build his next oud and I told you of someone, who sells a Samir Azar oud too in Germany.

A further option is a famous luthier in Great Britain, but you would have to wait several months and pay around 1000€. But he would be able to build your dream oud.

BTW ... what is your maximum budget?

Or you just wait for further offers in the Buy&Sell forum?

Itman - 12-15-2009 at 03:54 PM

Hello Chris,


I allready contacted the guy from Hamburg, so i wait for his answer. Who is Bakhri Daghir ?

The Samir Azar Oud:

the seller send me a Soundfile, it is a beautiful oud with very good sound, but nothing for me.

I try to ask Sabbassi.


Greetings

Igor

michoud - 12-16-2009 at 06:33 AM

Hi Itman
Check your u2u

Aymara - 12-16-2009 at 09:31 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Itman  
Who is Bakhri Daghir ?


I don't know, maybe Mutlu (Hamburglu) can answer this question.

David.B - 12-16-2009 at 10:49 AM

Hi Igor,

You can buy a good (but not the best) oud for less than 600 €

Many of us use Sukar's oud :

http://www.oudsukar.com/en/products_oud_en.php

Mod.1 sounds good :

http://www.youtube.com/user/davidlazzi#p/a/f/2/X6DAUYlPZtM

Tony uses a good microphone and you can judge by yourself.
I bought mine in a shop (Paris) but many in this forum buy them on the internet, you can ask them...

Aymara - 12-16-2009 at 11:21 AM

Hi David!
Quote: Originally posted by David.B  

You can buy a good (but not the best) oud for less than 600 €


I myself decided against the Sukar oud, because it would be too expensive for my taste.

The problem is, in Germany we would have to buy it over the internet from the middle east or the USA.

If I buy it for example from Palmyrami, I would pay 500$ for the oud, plus 150$ (or even more?) shipping, plus 22.5% taxes on 650$ ... yes, unbelievable, but we have to pay taxes an both, price plus shipping :(

So I would have to pay 796.25$ ~ 550€ ... a bit too much for a Model 1 for my taste.

An alternative would be a Model 14 for 700$ => 700 + 150 + 22.5% = 1041.25$ ~ 719€

But a real advantage of the Sukar oud's is the adjustable neck ... and the real arabic sound.

David.B - 12-18-2009 at 01:54 AM

Yes Chris, I've just check out the prices !

I bought my Mod.1 ~ 385 € (2500 F) in 2001. Now Khaled sells them 550 €, he adjusted the price you calculated to his ouds :

http://www.chamusic.com/cordes.html

2 years ago I bought a Mod. 8, 800 €, now it costs something like 1180 € (if I remember well, I've been to his shop a few weeks ago) ! I wanted to tell you to come to Paris to buy one but it's not interesting anymore...

With 550 € for a Mod.1 we are just at a border where it could be more judicious to save money for something better. Also the adjustable neck is not so appreciate around me : to some purists a oud must not have metal in its construction. Might be a question of vibration, I don't really know about this. BTW it's appreciable to adjust it and it sounds deep and arabic, that's right :)

I tried some jazzy stuffs on my Mod.8 but it doesn't exploit the potential of this oud to my sens :

http://www.facebook.com/DavidBrocard21?ref=profile#/video/video.php...

Danielo - 12-18-2009 at 02:00 AM

Hi Igor,

you can enjoy a week-end in Paris beautifully covered with snow and come back home with this:

http://instrument-musique.vivastreet.fr/vente-instruments-musique+p...

I don't know exactly which Sukar model it is but the price is good :)

Dan

fernandraynaud - 12-18-2009 at 03:07 AM

That 200 Euro Sukar looks good. Also Palmyrami will sell a Model 1 for a lot less than $500.

Aymara - 12-18-2009 at 06:37 AM

Quote: Originally posted by David.B  
... but it doesn't exploit the potential of this oud to my sens ...


It impossible to show the sound characteristics of an oud by video or even MP3 ... data compression is too high. That's why I prefer Ogg Vorbis or lossless compression like FLAC.

Nice music though :applause:

David.B - 12-18-2009 at 09:42 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Aymara  
It impossible to show the sound characteristics of an oud by video or even MP3 ... data compression is too high. That's why I prefer Ogg Vorbis or lossless compression like FLAC.


Thanks for the tip about FLAC, I didn't know this codec. And thanks for the comment about the music !

Itman - 12-18-2009 at 04:23 PM

Shalom,

thank you for your offers and help. I cant imagine what would happend, If i would not know this forum.
Now i decided for sabbassis offer. He will built an oud for me, he is a very very good oud maker.
Quote: Originally posted by Aymara  
Quote: Originally posted by David.B  
... but it doesn't exploit the potential of this oud to my sens ...


It impossible to show the sound characteristics of an oud by video or even MP3 ... data compression is too high. That's why I prefer Ogg Vorbis or lossless compression like FLAC.


What about Monkeys Audio - APE ? It is one of my favourite.

Greetings

Igor

David.B - 12-18-2009 at 10:43 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Itman  
What about Monkeys Audio - APE ? It is one of my favourite.


Thanks Igor, got it now for further recordings !

Aymara - 12-18-2009 at 11:25 PM

Hi again!
Quote: Originally posted by Itman  

Now i decided for sabbassis offer. He will built an oud for me, he is a very very good oud maker.


I tested two of his ouds and bought one of them. Both ouds were very different regarding sound characteristic, but both sounded fantastic, though they were finished only two weeks before I tested them. So I bet you won't regret your decision.

A further big advantage is, that you can take care about the transport yourself to avoid huge temperature changes in the ice cold winter.
Quote:
What about Monkeys Audio - APE ?


I didn't test it myself, but it is a lossless codec like FLAC, so who cares ... you don't loose the original.

My tip is to compare different codecs with a very good headphone and also visually with the help of Audacity, which enables you to do frequency analysis (frequency spectrum and EAC). Analyse MP3s and you'll notice, that even at highest birate all overtones above 16 kHz are lost.

Most people will say now, that this doesn't matter, because adults can't hear such high frequencies any more, but this is wrong regarding newest research and my own experience. Even people over 60 can hear 20 kHz, if it's not a single sinus wave. Single test tones won't be recognized, but if it are overtones which sound together with deeper frequencies even old people are able to hear them ... or let's say, they are able to regognize them, if they have a trained sense of hearing ... but that's the same with young people ... without this sense most people can't distinguish between violin and cello :D

How else could an old music expert distinguish between a Stradivari and a common concert violin, if he/she wouldn't be able to hear overtones? ;)

David.B - 12-18-2009 at 11:31 PM

100% agree. Even what the ear cannot hear is music...

Itman - 12-19-2009 at 02:38 AM

The loseless format is usefull for audiophil people and for those, who have this Headphones

http://www.testberichte.de/test/produkt_tests_sennheiser_hd_650_p27...


like me :buttrock:


Greetings

Itman - 12-19-2009 at 02:43 AM

Sabbassi wrote me:

I will aim ofcourse for the deep arabic sound, very good bass.
to inform you The real arabic sound will come from the ud only it you play for a while on it. the first months are aclimitizing months.
I will put a avery old soudboad from german spruce and in combination with walnut, will produce one of the best sounds there is i hope.


Greetings

Igor

Aymara - 12-19-2009 at 02:45 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Itman  
..., who have this Headphones


The Sennheiser is nice, but it has no chance against the Beyerdynamic DT-880 or DT-990 ... I have the later ... test them, if you find them in a shop. You'll be astonished!

PS: I also was a Sennheiser fan, before I tested Beyerdynamic ;)

Aymara - 12-19-2009 at 03:04 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Itman  

I will put a a very old soundboad from german spruce and in combination with walnut, will produce one of the best sounds there is i hope.


I also have such a spruce soundboard ... good choice ... but I still prefer a rosewood bowl over walnut, which gives a warmer bass tone ... it's smoother ... but a bit more expensive I think.

But it's your choice.

PS: Ask him, if he still has this fantastic Macassar ebony for the fingerboard ... it feels and looks great.