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Pickgard position and risha

Danielo - 12-20-2009 at 01:18 PM

Hello,

As I try to rebuilt my risha technique (which was very bad) from scratch, I am becoming quite focused on risha issues...

Most of us have noticed that on Nahat ouds (and other old ouds) the pickgard is a little bit too close to the bridge compared to the spot where players usually pluck the strings today.

I guess the Nahats knew what they were doing

Does it mean that the 'old-style' plucking technique was different from today?

My guess is that it comes from the fact that eagle's feather risha is held at a stepper angle than current plastic/horn picks...

any thoughts?

Dan

Sazi - 12-20-2009 at 02:29 PM

Hi Dan, regardless of the risha, the old way (from early manuscripts) is to pluck at 1/10th of the string length, (i.e 6cm from the bridge on a 60cm string length), this reinforces the fundamental note.

Danielo - 12-20-2009 at 02:37 PM

Hi Sazi,

thanks, that's very interesting :applause:

indeed the raqma on Nahat is centered around 6cm from the bridge or so...

do you know until when this 'old way' of plucking was in use? why did it change afterwards?

Dan

Sazi - 12-20-2009 at 02:43 PM

There is always a difference between the theoretical and the practical when it comes to music, and tastes and fashions change, perhaps it was because people heard more guitars and wanted to include that tone? We can only guess...

By the way, when I say "the old way" we're talking 9th/13th Century.

Danielo - 12-20-2009 at 02:51 PM

I see.... older than I thought indeed!

But looking at old ouds it seems that this style was still in use at least till the first quarter of the 20th century?

David.B - 12-21-2009 at 03:12 PM

Salut Danielo,

I've been confronted to this problem, I used to play close to the bridge and the sound was "hard". Some people encourage me to play beyond the pickguard, I think the fashion is to something smoother... I use to listen to traditional recordings which focus on maqamat and the 1/10th seems to be more respected. "this reinforces the fundamental note" thanks for the tip Sazi, you put words on what I feel !

Danielo - 12-22-2009 at 01:58 AM

Thanks David...

As an aside, out of curiosity (after all I am a physicist!) I plotted the relative
contributions of the harmonics for a plucked string, depending on where it is plucked...
it seems to contradict this statement??

[file]12950[/file]

PS: of course saying that the oud's strings are just plucked is a crude approximation (as the risha gives some momentum to it)

Sazi - 12-22-2009 at 02:09 AM

Physics shmysics! :shrug:

just pluck the string while touching lightly on the position 1/10th from the bridge and you can HEAR that it's the same note but in a higher octave.

But then again...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/21/Table_of_H...

:shrug:

Danielo - 12-22-2009 at 04:12 AM

I see... I understood that it would reinforce the fundamental, actually it reinforces the first harmonic (which is the octave), as you say.

So no conflict between physics and music

Dan

David.B - 12-22-2009 at 05:43 AM

Heuuu... There's something I don't understand...

I took my oud to make empirical measures : I use to play between ~ 7,5 cm and ~ 10 cm (easy to see where the strings are used...) on a Sukar oud which is 61,5 cm. I took the 1/10th and it gives to me 6,15 cm, I almost never play on this zone, if I follow your scheme Sazi, it gives to me the note C# on the A string. So I checked out 61,5 x 1/8 = 7,6875 cm (closed to my ~ 7,5cm !) and it gives the harmonic A on the A strings. 61,5 x 1/6 = 10,25 cm and it gives the harmonic E still on the A strings (closed to my ~ 10 cm !). I listened to these 3 positions while I was plucking the strings :

1/10 is OK even if I prefer the 1/6

1/8 has the best response with a deep resonance

1/6 is harmonious

I can perfectly hear the difference between these 3 notes, C# A and E.

BTW, something makes me thinking, why the center of the pickguard is at 1/10 ? Is there something I didn't understand, because to me it should be at 1/8 ?

Also, I understood something : Nowadays players use to play on 1/4 really often. Now I understand, it sounds like 1/8, in other words A (on the A strings). This is not something I've just read, I made the experience on the oud. The trick is to handle the strings at 15,375 cm (on my Sukar) from bridge with the risha...

Really helpful, I'd never thought about this before :bowdown:

jdowning - 12-22-2009 at 05:47 AM

Just to add to the information provided by Sazi - the early specification about the plucking position for an oud comes from the surviving 9th C manuscript fragments of Al-Kindi (died circa 874).

According to Dr. G.H. Farmer :
Al-Kindi gives the plucking position at the widest part of the sound board (midrab al-awtar) which was where the pick guard was placed. This was made from tortoise-shell and fixed to the sound board (to prevent damage to the thin wood of the sound board by the plectrum (midrab). It was fixed at a distance of 6.75 cm from the bridge because greater resonance in the instrument was found at the widest part of the sound board. The depth of the plucking position (from the bridge) was a tenth of the string length (i.e. the string length was 67.5 cm).

jdowning - 12-22-2009 at 06:02 AM

For information, I have just checked the dimensions of my old Egyptian oud currently being restored and, with a string length of 62.2 cm, the centre of the pick-guard is about 6.25 cm from the bridge and is located at the widest part of the sound board. So this matches the Al-Kindi specs. as far as the pick guard position is concerned.

The date of this oud is not known (late 19th C early 20th C perhaps?)

Danielo - 12-22-2009 at 06:07 AM

John I am always impressed by the width of your knowledge!

Actually I did mesure the position of the pickgard on a Nahat oud - and it was as on your Egyptian one, pickgard exactly centered at 1/10th.

David, your feedback is very interesting - after all the final judgement should come from the ear not from equations

I think there are two different things that should not be confused:

-First, as in the picture that Sazi provided above, if one puts the finger lightly on a string at a given position the string will vibrate mostly in the corresponding harmonic. For instance, at 1/10 of the length gives G# for a E open string according to this picture.

-Second, one can take an open string an pluck it at different positions. This only sets the initial conditions for the string vibration, then the string will vibrate in a combination of various harmonics. The relative weights of the different harmonics, or in other words the timbre of the instrument, will depend among other things on the plucking position.

In the picture that I gave above, we see that as the pick is getting closer to the bridge (moving from 1/6 to 1/8 then to 1/10 of string length) the contributions of all harmonics, relative to the contribution of the fundamental note, is enhanced.

dan

David.B - 12-22-2009 at 06:25 AM

Yes, I used the second method... Can't hear very well from the first one. I tried again to play on the 1/10 and there is something like a second breath. I need to feel what I read, unfortunately I'm doing many things at the same time and I'll bend over to study this phenomena later. Might be clearer.

Thanks Dan

Brian Prunka - 12-22-2009 at 12:12 PM

If I recall correctly (which is dubious), plucking the string exactly where a harmonic node is should reduce the presence of that overtone.

So if plucking an open string at 1/10 gives the 5th harmonic (a 17th = 3rd plus two octaves), then plucking exactly at the node should reinforce the fundamental by eliminating the 5th harmonic.

Doesn't seem implausible, but then you would have to adjust your hand position to the millimeter depending on what note you're playing. Which does seem implausible.

Danielo - 12-22-2009 at 12:21 PM

Hi Brian,

you are right, if you pluck dead on at 1/10th of the string, you will completely kill the 9th harmonic which is three octaves + one third....but the contribution of the 9th harmonic is probably very faint anyway.

I think the main effect is not that this 9th harmonic is killed, but that all the previous harmonics
(first to eight) are stronger than if you pluck closer to the soundhole (but again this is just theory!)

David.B - 12-22-2009 at 01:17 PM

Thanks Brian, you wrote what I needed to read. When we play at 1/10 we play on the 5th harmonic I understood that but I didn't understand that plucking exactly at the node would eliminate it ! Now it's clear : without the 5th harmonic the first six harmonics are C C G C (here is supposed to be the E) G, with C as fundamental.

Danielo I don't understand about the 9th harmonic you're talking about, it's supposed to be a 2nd plus three octaves... Is the 9th affected by plucking on the node of the 5th ?

Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka

Doesn't seem implausible, but then you would have to adjust your hand position to the millimeter depending on what note you're playing. Which does seem implausible.

Yes it's impossible to adapt this method all the time on each note we play with the left hand. But it's really interesting to hear the difference by plucking here or there, also we certainly adapt the position where we pluck unconsciously. Something to meditate...

Sazi - 12-22-2009 at 01:35 PM

Thanks John, I knew I'd read it but couldn't remember where, all my books are in storage

And to throw in another curly one... most of the time we would be playing a note while pressing on the string, thus shortening the vibrating length, changing everything, fundamental, harmonics, the lot, so unless we somehow compensated by moving our picking hand all over the place like we've got Alzheimers... oops Brian said that already!

ahh forget it, I'ma just gonna play! :airguitar:

Brian Prunka - 12-22-2009 at 01:47 PM

Danielo's right, 1/10 of the way would actually be the 9th overtone or 10th harmonic (the fundamental is the first harmonic, as it's usually defined).

So the 5th harmonic would still be present, and the 10th harmonic is generally so subtle that eliminating it would have a pretty small, almost negligible effect.

I was just going by the notes mentioned earlier in the thread, but didn't think about the actual math.

If you wanted to eliminate the 5th harmonic, you would pluck at 1/5 the length of the string.

David.B - 12-22-2009 at 02:10 PM

Ok, I believe you it's the 10th harmonic (question of succession on the string). But I don't now about overtones, my knowledge stops when yours starts guys :shrug:

Quote: Originally posted by David.B

Also, I understood something : Nowadays players use to play on 1/4 really often. Now I understand, it sounds like 1/8, in other words A (on the A strings). This is not something I've just read, I made the experience on the oud. The trick is to handle the strings at 15,375 cm (on my Sukar) from bridge with the risha...

In fact 1/4 is a bit far from the bridge, really closed to the soundhole. I guess many players play at 1/5 it's more reasonable and it matches with your opinion Brian...

I think I should give up and only play like Sazi suggested it

Sazi - 12-23-2009 at 12:53 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David.B

if I follow your scheme ..., it gives to me the note C# on the A string.

Yes, what is interesting me now is that in an article from American Luthierie # 54, Graham McDonald states that the usual basic soundboard resonance for a guitar is around G# (on the E string), which coincides with the same harmonic at the 1/10th position, [and for a teardrop instrument usually around D to E, though he is refering to bouzouki, tuned C,f,a,d.] (I checked two of my floating bridge ouds and they both have a resonance of Eb, and now I'm wondering if the sound would improve if the resonance were raised to E?)

ameer - 12-23-2009 at 02:41 PM

It seems to me that string tension also has a great deal to do with the relative effectiveness of playing close to the bridge. I tuned my Sukar down a wholestep today and playing close to the bridge sounds a lot less tinny than it originally did. When they're looser the strings (mostly the nylons, but this is somewhat true for wounds as well) have more of a bright twang (somewhat like the difference between the neck and bridge pickups on the electric guitar), which translates to a more pleasing sound when you pluck close to the bridge.

David.B - 12-25-2009 at 03:48 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Sazi

(I checked two of my floating bridge ouds and they both have a resonance of Eb, and now I'm wondering if the sound would improve if the resonance were raised to E?)

Sazi,
It's not clear, could you explain in term of fraction, or with a string as a reference ? Also I don't understand the resonance you're talking about : timbre ? harmonic nodes ? Something else ?

David.B - 12-25-2009 at 04:12 PM

Quote: Originally posted by ameer

It seems to me that string tension also has a great deal to do with the relative effectiveness of playing close to the bridge.

Indeed ! I think it's a balance between harmonic nodes and string tension which make us chose between this or that position to pluck the string. Also that's why the thickness of the risha comes into the equation, a thin one allowed us to play close to the bridge without to much twang, at the opposite a thick one allowed us to play beyond the pickguard with enough clearness.

ameer, did you try all these position when you pluck :

1/10, 1/8, 1/6, 1/5 and 1/4 ?

As you play on a Sukar like me you can give your feeling about the timbre, interesting to compare even if it's not scientific...

Sazi - 12-25-2009 at 05:01 PM

Quote: Originally posted by David.B

It's not clear, could you explain in term of fraction, or with a string as a reference ? Also I don't understand the resonance you're talking about : timbre ? harmonic nodes ? Something else ?

Well, you see in that table, when you pluck at 1/10th position, you get an E harmonic on a C string, well when I tap my oud (or sing into it) the body (air?) resonance is Eb. And since C is the most prominent open note in a lot of stuff I play, I was thinking maybe E would be a better body resonance, coinciding with the harmonic given using the directive of playing in the 1/10th position.

Or that my oud would sound better tuned down a semi-tone, which I tried and it does, making it A=415, which was a common historical tuning and as ouds are really basically historical instruments that makes sense to me. Munir Bashir often tuned down a semi-tone, and a few other players on this forum do too, all with great results, a richer more resonant sound.

David.B - 12-26-2009 at 01:36 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Sazi

Well, you see in that table, when you pluck at 1/10th position, you get an E harmonic on a C string, well when I tap my oud (or sing into it) the body (air?) resonance is Eb.

OK, so you mean the construction of the oud imply one note or a specific frequency in resonance... Don't really know about this. But in this case why E (1/10th of C strings) should resonate, if we want to eliminate it by plucking the harmonic node ?

jdowning - 12-26-2009 at 06:17 AM

[rquote

.... making it A=415, which was a common historical tuning .....

[/ rquote]

A diversion but this comment from Sazi caught my eye. In fact A415 pitch has no common historical basis but is a modern invention of the 'early music' fraternity derived from the modern orchestral A440 pitch standard that became an International standard in 1939.

For those interested in historical instrument pitches check out the tables on pages 495 to 511 in Dr Hermann Helmholtz treatise "On the Sensations of Tone" available free from the Internet Archive website at

http://www.archive.org/details/onsensationsofto00helmrich

There is only one example of an A415 pitch from the 270+ entries tabulated and only two examples of A440 pitch. Otherwise pitch standards used historically by instrument makers varied widely.

A415 pitch standard and tuning practices is subject of a discussion paper by Jeremy Montagu, past Curator of the Bate Collection of musical instruments in Oxford, England that may be of interest.

http://www.jeremymontagu.co.uk/415.pdf

Sazi - 12-26-2009 at 02:34 PM

Ooops!! Thank's john, I stand corrected...

Apologies for inadvertantly mis-leading anyone with that post.

Perhaps then I should re-phrase what I said...,

I find the oud sounds better a semi-tone lower, (which just happens to be A415ish [oh alright, A415.3] in the newer numbers, but maybe it should be called Ab...), and has perhaps only slightly historical basis in the oud world in that it was the tuning often used by Munir Bashir... (the semitone flat that is... not that he used A415 (.3) as a reference)...Phew!!!

or not...

That first article by JM was quite humorous, it sums up the situation nicely.

Danielo - 1-14-2010 at 02:23 AM

Hi guys,

After this discussion (thanks everybody for your contribution

)I decided to try this risha position... I practiced plucking in the middle of the pickckgard, i.e. at 1/10 of string length. At first it was a bit difficult because the strings lack elasticity that close to the bridge but I got used to it.

I use very low tension (a whole step lower) and it sounds really fine this way, very punchy. However there isn't much sustain, as probably the string displacement during the stroke is smaller. So, kind of Farido sound

However I find it hard to have the upper course (c') sounding the same way as the lower ones... more practice is needed!

Dan

David.B - 1-31-2010 at 02:53 AM

Yes I changed my risha position too Danielo, at 1/10 of the string. I stick on c-G-D-A-FF-CC but I sanded my risha a bit more. The sound is classical and bright. Thanks for this helpful thread !