Mike's Oud Forums - Powered by XMB

Problem with fixed bridge!

Luttgutt - 2-15-2010 at 06:52 AM

Hi guys!

Here is my new oud Attachment: 7S oud.docx (324kB)
This file has been downloaded 228 times

I have changed the way of putting the strings on my new oud. I loved the sound! But the day after, I realized that the bridge is starting to come out from back side Attachment: OUD BRO.docx (186kB)
This file has been downloaded 230 times
You can see that I am capable of sliding a picture under it some millimiters.

What should I do?? please help!

p.s. I have down louded the file Aymara told me about. But did not know how to use it to post pictures here. Sorry

Aymara - 2-15-2010 at 08:20 AM

Hi!

Quote: Originally posted by Luttgutt

What should I do?? please help!

That's definitely a case for a luthier ... the bridge needs to be taken off and fixed again. Even a guitar luthier should be able to do this.

I would recommend to loosen the strings until it's repaired, to avoid further damage.

Quote:

I have down louded the file Aymara told me about. But did not know how to use it to post pictures here. Sorry

I explained in detail how to do it in the other thread ... my friend you need a computer training

... no local friend available?

ExtreamTarab - 2-15-2010 at 09:28 AM

Hey,

I have attached the pictures for you

I agree with Aymara, you should loosen the strings until you get it repaired. Might not really need a luthier, something like this seems easy to fix and I'm sure there are many members here in the forum who would be able to tell you how it could be done.

However, I do not understand what you have added over the bridge...I see some kind of a wire at the end of it, could it be a pickup mic ?

7S oud.bmp - 968kB

Aymara - 2-15-2010 at 09:40 AM

Quote: Originally posted by ExtreamTarab

However, I do not understand what you have added over the bridge...

It's a pickup and as it seems this is the reason, why the bridge loosened.

He placed the pickup on top of the bridge instead of behind, which raises the string's tension, I think.

Matthias - 2-15-2010 at 09:46 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Luttgutt

Hi guys!

Here is my new oud

I have changed the way of putting the strings on my new oud. I loved the sound! But the day after, I realized that the bridge is starting to come out from back side
You can see that I am capable of sliding a picture under it some millimiters.

Hello Luttgutt,

this is not only a case for regluing the bridge again. There exists important reasons making the bridge as it is done for nearly all existing ouds. The strings comming out in front of the bridge and hanging in itself shifts the tension as far it is possible to the frontside. This takes off the tensin from the backside where the loosing as in your instrument starts.

Beside this changing you made a second dangerous changing which brings a lot of additional tension to the backside: You raised the highest point of the the string on the bridge with around 5 mm by applying the pic up. This is absolutely too much.
You should not do both. Theese two changings caused the coming off of the bridge. First of all you MUST losen the strings to avoid the quick comming off of the bridge. The bridge should be removed by a professional instrument maker and then glued again.

Best regards Matthias

Aymara - 2-16-2010 at 01:12 AM

Good morning!

Quote: Originally posted by Matthias

... this is not only a case for regluing the bridge again.

Thanks for the more detailed explanation of the problem!

Quote:

The bridge should be removed by a professional instrument maker and then glued again.

... and he could also take care of the correct placement of the pickup, which might make a modification of the bridge neccessary ... or maybe even a new bridge.

The problem is, that this pickup shouldn't be placed at the top of the bridge ... Matthias explained why ... but to the back- or frontside. But with the current holes in the bridge for the strings, this isn't possible.

An alternative would be to use a different pickup. Similar ones are available, which are very flat and can be "glued" to the bridges's front side or the soundboard (in front of the bridge) with doublesided adhesive tape ... you can see such a pickup in this VIDEO.

fernandraynaud - 2-16-2010 at 05:53 AM

I don't understand what happened when. Luttgutt, did Sukar make this oud for you like this with this bridge? Did his shop put the pickup on or did you ? Can you please explain exactly what happened in what order and over what period of time ? Who made the pickup itself?

Luttgutt - 2-16-2010 at 11:48 AM

Hi guys!

Aymara, Extreemtarab, Matthias and Fernandraynaud
thanks a lot for your concern, answers, and help!!!
I am very gratfull :bowdown:

Don't worry guys, I did release the strings as soon as I saw the problem (the day after I put them).

Matthias, I see your point! The pick up actually rases the strings with 9mm, and that is almost a doubling from the original 10mm!!!!) WHY did I do that?... I'll try to explain..

And I see the need to do some detailed answering here

1- This is a pick up that I put on the oud.
I love this pick up! the best I ever used on ouds. And my sound engeneer agrees with me. I have been using it for 3 years now i guess. And I have it on ALL my fixed bridge ouds.
Actually, that is WHY I turned back to fixed bridge!!!

So I know how it should be put

And that is how I had it first (look at the first picture!).

Aymara, it is not supposed to be in front! It does distub the strings, and the pressur would be the wrong way (away from it!).
It might be put at the back (in some ouds you can only put it back, like in Turunz ouds), but it is best on top (according to Shadow and the sound engeneer).
And if you look closely at the first picture, you see that the hight of the strings is not affected at all.

2- So, why did I do that change!?
a- I read on this forum that Sukar ouds are loud because oftwo factors. The first is a smart bracing system, and the second is high bridge! But I did NOT agree, on the contrary, Sukar fixed bridge is ONLY 11mm high, and the srings are ONLY 10mm higher then the sound board. To me that is as LOW as possible actually.
So I wanted to EXPERIMENT. I wanted to see what would happen to a Sukar when you put a high bridge.

Having this pick up gave me the idea that I can try that WITHOUT having to change the bridge! But then I HAD to make the strings come the other way (by the way the strings go twice around the bridge and pick up, so that the pick up would stay in place.

And the action was just raised with ONE mm, from 3mm to 4mm!
That is the buteay of adjustable oud neck.
I lowered the action to 1mm, and VOILA!

And I tell, I LOVED the result! The sound got even lowder, clearer, got a wanderful tone that I never heard before!

I knew that I am putting a lot of presure on the bridge (I am a matematitien

. But the sound was sooooo nice that I couldn't put the strings back the way they should be!

Now I am thinking about gluing a 5mm extantion on top of the bridge, and put the strings and pick up the way they are supposed to be (after getting the bridge fixed of course).

Do you think that would work!?? Please tell what you think.

And thank a lot again and again
Geko

Aymara - 2-17-2010 at 03:16 AM

Hi again Geko!

Quote: Originally posted by Luttgutt

And if you look closely at the first picture, you see that the hight of the strings is not affected at all.

When I compare the two pics, I get the impression, that the pickup is placed in the same position and only the way the strings are tied to the bridge changed.

That leeds me to the conclusion, that the damage wasn't caused by the new string tieing, but that it was a long term damage caused by "raising" the bridge's hight by the pickup ebing placed on top of the bridge.

I'm highly interested, if Matthias can confirm this or has a different opinion.

Quote:

Now I am thinking about gluing a 5mm extantion on top of the bridge, ...

To my understanding, this won't help ... check Matthias' explanations again. Or am I wrong?

How about the Shadow Nanonflex pickup as an alternative? I would expect it to sound as good as the current, without the "bridge raising" problem.

Luttgutt - 2-17-2010 at 05:33 AM

Thanks again Aymara for your concern and answers!!

The pick up in itself is NOT the problem (when put the way it should. Like in the first picture. And it does NOT raise the strings at all! The strings still go out of the holes the way they do without the pick).

The problem lays in the WAY I put the strings around the pick put. As Matthias says, it resulted in two problems:
1- the strings are now higher on the bridge (acyually 9mm higher, and not just 5mm as Matthias guessed).
2- the strings this way, are pulling back and up, putting too much extra tention on the back of the bridge.

I was just experimenting (making the strings higher at the bridge WITHOUT having to change the bridge. Just to TEST it first. And that is why I HAD to tie the strings the way I did.

And I LOVED the result. So now I want to make it into a permanent change. Highering the bridge, and the holes of course, with 5mm instead of 9mm. And that wa I will NOT have to tie the strings around and back for the bridge.
This way I will ONLY be having the 1st of the two problems Matthias talk about.

I am guessing that would work!

What do you think guys??

Aymara - 2-17-2010 at 08:19 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Luttgutt

The strings still go out of the holes the way they do without the pick.

Aah, ok ... didn't see that the strings weren't raised in the "above" shot.

Quote:

Highering the bridge, and the holes of course, with 5mm instead of 9mm.

I think that is still very riscy and will very likely result in the same problem, but let's wait, what Matthias thinks.

Matthias - 2-17-2010 at 09:30 AM

Hello Luttgutt,

both changings are the reasons for the comming off of the bridge:
-->> the pick up raises the tension
-->> the different string tying shifts the tension to the back corner

Both is dangerous.

Luttgutt, if you have an adjustable neck, why you do make the bridge so high? May be you drill new lower holes, integrate the pickup to the bridge and then adjust the neck to the actual situation, or you change to the nanoflex picup which is flat.

By the way, if the bridge did not come off more than the paper shows, it may be that it does not change more, if the strings will be arranged as it is nomally done on an oud and then it is not necessary to reglue it.

Best regards Matthias

Luttgutt - 2-18-2010 at 04:11 AM

Hi Matthias!
And thanks again

Yes the bridge did NOT come off more the in the picture.
The rest is sitting well. And there is NO apparent deformation on the sound board (still flat).
The tail of the bridge was CURVED upwords to start with!
So I am really not worried, and I don't thing there is any damage (but the strings are still released awaiting answers

Quote: Originally posted by Matthias

Hello Luttgutt,

both changings are the reasons for the comming off of the bridge:
-->> the pick up raises the tension
-->> the different string tying shifts the tension to the back corner

Both is dangerous.

Yes, I got your point

Some answers to your questions:

1- I wanted to TRY a higher bridge (higher stringer from the sound board). And I think the TRY was a success: I LOVED the NEW sound!

2- Nothing wrong with the action. Yes adjustable!
I am pleased with the action! It is the hight of the strings at the SOUND borad I am experimenting with!

3- Nothing wrong with the actual pick up! I don't NEED to change a thing with the bridge in order to put it on, the way it should (and WAS. See first picture). I just wanted to TRY higher strings at the sound board.

4- I have a flat nanoflex. I HATE the sound (and it feeds!)

5- The holes on the Sukar bridge are almost at the upper edge. So there is no way you can drill it higher. (And I defenitly don't want it to be lower!!).

SO:
I REALLY love the sound with high bridge, and I WANT to have it as permanent solution! And my question is this:

What about glooing a 5mm extention above the bridge, make new (higher) holes, and put the strings the USUAL way (forget about the pick up, it has nothing to do with this storry

1-Do you think that would work? would it hold??

2- would I be putting too much presure still?
(remember: it would ONLY be 5mm higher, NOT 9mm as it is now. And the strings would be tied normally, and pull the usual way!)

Waiting...

Aymara - 2-18-2010 at 11:40 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Luttgutt

What about glooing a 5mm extention above the bridge, ...

In my opinion that would result in the same problem.

That's why I would do it the other way round: lower the bridge by 5mm or if possible even more, let a luthier drill new holes for the strings, reglue the bridge and use the desired stringing technique above the pickup to achieve the desired sound.

The lower bridge should be able to stand the higher tension, because the leverage effect is lower.