Scale length question

Hi Jack,

an welcome to the oud world

The shorter string length (58.5cm) is used mainly for better playability (it is easier to catch notes high on the fingerboard).

It is perfectly possible to use standard Arabic tuning with a 58.5 cm oud but the string gauges have to be chosen differently, for a given string tension.

All things being equal a shorter scale oud with a smaller body should give less powerfull basses however there are many other parameters in the equation (wood choices, bracing,...) so it is perfectly possible to have a 58.5 cm oud with bassy Arabic tone...

Shorter scale with the same strings and tuning will result in lower tension. It is thus logical to tune it say two half-tones higher, which is exactly what a Turkish tuning does. Thus the same strings can generally be used in that situation.

The lowest notes will of course be higher. The smaller body also favors higher frequency resonances in the instrument.

But many people tune Turkish ouds to Arabic tunings, and shorter ouds can have surprisingly good bass. In fact it's a puzzling thing: what exactly makes an oud "Turkish"? But strings have to be optimized for this situation. The advantage is that such ouds are easier to hold.

Also they can fit better in the airline overhead bins, if they are shallower AND narrower

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

It is thus logical to tune it say two half-tones higher, which is exactly what a Turkish tuning does.

Chris, I think that these are very generic oud strings that can be tuned Arabic on long scale and Turkish on short scale ouds. I believe that what Jameel says on his site is correct:

D'Addario oud strings are gauged for Turkish ouds, but as with most Turkish sets, they can also be used on Arabic ouds (~ 61 cm scale) tuned a step lower.

In other words you should be able to tune your 585mm oud to Turkish on these strings. Here are the tensions I get based on D'Addario's data from Matthias' web site:

Note String 580mm 610mm Turk 580mm
cc NYL022 2.29 2.54 dd 2.89
gg NYL028 2.24- 2.47- aa 2.63
DD NYL025W 3.91+ 4.32+ EE 4.32++
AA NYL029W 3 .46 3.82 BB 3.93+
FF NYL033W 3.34 3.70 F# 3.75
C NYL041W 2.97 3.28 C# 3.33

That last column shows a 585 mm oud tuned Turkish as shown, C#F#F#BBEEaadd. The + and - indicate where I had to use data from the next point up or down. Email me if you want to go into details, no point boring others.

What does matter is that the "standard" oud set is something like this, here are some other sets. The Mumtaz ff course is in parentheses, missing courses are xxx, like the C Bamm course missing from the LaBella OU80A.

(020p) 025p 028p 024w 030w 034w 042w Mari Turkish older
(020p) 026p 032p 024w 029w 033w 040w Mari Arabic older
(020p) 022p 027p 023w 028w 032w 041w Mari Turkish recent
xxx 022p 028p 025w 030w 034w 042w LaBella OU80
(020p) 027p 031p 023w 029w 033w xxx La Bella OU80A
xxx 022p 029p 025w 028w 033w 040w GHS

The point is that there is no big voodoo here, it's all very consistent. Plain nylon is more or less the same from one batch to another, and the wound strings are basically the same silver-plated copper over nylon core. There's not that much difference from one manufacturer's materials to the next, so "it's not rocket science", as they say, the weight per unit volume, the length, the gauge, the pitch and the tension determine each other in well-defined ways. There are different solid or "plain" materials, from Nylgut to various kinds of Nylon, the materials' data work with the standard equations, it all makes sense, there are no "guitar" or "oud" strings, there are just strings in different materials and gauges. We all understand these things, but allow me to rehash a few consequences.

For instance, the Oud's 2nd course, tuned to g, and the 4th course, tuned to A, have about the same thickness, 0.029" to 0.030", yet the Plain Nylon string sounds a g at 196 Hz, and the silvered copper wire wound over Nylon string sounds an A at 110 Hz, almost an octave lower. It's logical. The heavier wound string allows the string maker to use a thinner string to sound a lower pitch. This is why bass strings use a metal winding over the nylon. A plain nylon oud string would have to be absurdly thick to be tuned to 110 Hz, so thick it would be hard to play. Coming from the other end, not changing the thickness, it would have to be so loose to sound the A that it would not be heard. It's all compromises!

Note how the tensions differ, 2.5 K to 3.8 Kg, not because they MUST differ, but because of the thickness that was selected by the factory. If we had used a 0.025" wound string for the A, it would be as loose as the g string, 2.5 Kg. Yet 2.5 Kg in that position would feel much too "floppy", so based on experience, a thicker wound string was selected, a 0.029". It seems all of the oud sets we examined follow about the same "curve", with the most tension on the 3rd and 4th courses.

String technology has changed over the centuries, and Mr Downing's efforts in recreating medieval strings are very important. Today's commonplace strings are all relatively late innovations.

The harpsichord strings shown below do not use overwinding. They cover 5 octaves, with .006" strings in the treble to .022" in the bass. The heaviest bass strings are 90% red copper, the mid strings are yellow brass, and the treble strings are the lightest, iron. In addition, the "scale length" ranges from 3 inches in the treble to 60 inches in the bass.

Quite a different set of limitations. The total tension on an authentic harpsichord is a tiny fraction of that found on a modern piano. A fine harpsichord is like an oud, light and resonant. In Venice during the Renaissance, Oud players must have rubbed shoulders in the Piazza San Marco with players of the Lute, the Clavichord and the Harpsichord, and instrument-makers influenced each other. An entire Italian harpsichord, taken out of its outer case, can be carried under one's arm, weighing barely 8 Kg. When ignorant early 20th century "specialists" tried to re-string old instruments with piano strings, parts went flying and many fine instruments were ruined.

At the other end of the spectrum, with modern materials, if we want to look at some exotic strings (even more exotic than the AC110s Aymara introduced me to for acoustic guitar), strings that do NOT have the same properties as average strings, look at these! The cores are a woven jeweler's steel chain (or "rope"), and the windings are nylon flat-tape for the trebles, and silver-plated copper flat-wire for the basses --THAT's different. These are Thomastic's S KR116 strings for classical guitar! What they provide is a very low tension (6Kg on Spanish guitar) with extremely long sustain and no finger-noise. The correct gauge strings from this set could be used on an oud for a different timbre, or just an adventure! I'll be doing the math -- which ones might fit where on the oud, as long as the math checks out, there is no possibility of exceeding safe limits -- but note that these strings are more expensive than fishing line.

----------------
Thomastic steel rope guitar flatwounds from KR116 set. The blue stuff is binding at the end of strings. The thin string on the right is a 0.016" flatwound nylon tape high E string, replacing a plain nylon .028", the silver one of the left is a flatwound silverplate 0.039" low E string, replacing the typical roundwound 0.043" silvered copper over nylon.



The Thomastik AC110s are so pretty, I had to show them too They are polished bronze flatwounds, the top two being just bronze-plated steel, starting with a 0.010". Normal tensions on a Western guitar with normal extra light strings are uneven, ranging from 8 -14 Kg. The AC110 offer a very consistent tension around 7-7.5 Kg.



Harpsichord 8' string set for a Flemish V.

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

D'Addario oud strings are gauged for Turkish ouds, but as with most Turkish sets, they can also be used on Arabic ouds (~ 61 cm scale) tuned a step lower.

Quote:

..., no point boring others.

Quote: Originally posted by Aymara

On a short scale oud like mine, this is no problem, but I bet it will be, if I would try a Turkish tuning. Remember, everybody warns not to use a Turkish tuning on an arabic oud, because of the risk to damage bridge and/or soundboard.

I use MusicCaravan turkish strings in my 58.5 scale Ghadban's oud and Nazih didn't warn me not to use turkish tuning. For me the tension is perfect in D (and I love low tension).



In fact, arab ouds are quite more robust than turkish ones, aren't they? Why a 58.5 arab oud should have any problem using turkish tuning?

Quote: Originally posted by jazzchiss

Why a 58.5 arab oud should have any problem using turkish tuning?

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

I almost die laughing when I see the price of the Thomastik Single 0.136" bottom B string (for a 5 or 6 string bass): TOI_JF34136 Thomastik-Infeld Nickel Flat Wound Roundcore Long Scale .136, JF34136 $45.86

What? In Germany I pay around 65 Euros for the complete 5-string Jazz flatwound set from Thomastik. So 45$ for the single B-string is unbelievable ... you should order your strings in Germany

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

This set was $149 the other day ...

I prefer 55 Euros for the 6-string set

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

are those really the same set?

Manil, like MatthewW says, it's messy to think of strings (or ouds) by slogans, go by gauges and measurements. Even the words Turkish and Arabic are labels that add confusion. We need to be more precise. What we should say is short scale 585 mm and long scale 615 mm, and there are other lengths possible.

Tunings also can be confused unless we are very specific. In listing a tuning, we use lower case (small) letters to indicate treble plain nylon strings, and upper case (capital) letters for wound strings. This way it's suggestive of which is the treble end. A single string course gets a single letter, double courses get two. The bottom single C string on an Arabic tuning is shown at a singe upper case C. The phrase "From bass to treble" or similar, following a tuning list, is tedious but precise, as it's imaginable to use all wound strings, and then how would you tell which is the treble end ;-)

So, to be precise, it's not "tuning an Arabic oud to Turkish" that's bad. The reason I'm going into the details is because many people are unsure, and get locked-in to certain brands, or make mistakes. A more accurate and quite simple story is:

The generic oud string set (as defined in messages above, like a D.Mari or D'Addario J95 or GHS or LaBella OU80) works well for a short scale (585 mm) oud (often called a "Turkish oud"), tuned to D or common Turkish tuning, i.e. C#F#F#BBEEaadd. If this same oud, with the same strings, is tuned (down) to common Arabic C tuning, CFFAADDggcc, the tension will be lower, and obviously safe.

This same generic oud string set (as defined above) also works fine for a long scale (615 mm) oud tuned to C or common Arabic tuning, i.e. CFFAADDggcc. In fact the tensions will then be almost identical to the short scale oud tuned to a D or common Turkish tuning. That's why there's only one oud string set in many brands. Only the DD course is a little over 4 Kg. But pulling this same long scale oud, with the same strings, up to a common Turkish D tuning is too high a tension for most ouds, especially on courses 3,4 and 5. The 3rd course EE in that situation is close to 5 Kg.

The last column has been added in the table below to show the tensions on a long scale oud tuned to "Turkish" D tuning. The increase from Arabic tuning averages half a kilo per string, or 55 kg more for 11 strings. I'm not sure where Jameel gets the 0.8 Kg, but it's not that different anyway.


Note String 580m 610mm Turk 580mm 610mm
cc NYL022 2.29 2.54 dd 2.89 3.29
gg NYL028 2.24- 2.47- aa 2.63 2.90
DD NYL025W 3.91+ 4.32+ EE 4.32++ 4.78++
AA NYL029W 3 .46 3.82 BB 3.93+ 4.34+
FF NYL033W 3.34 3.70 F# 3.75 4.15
C NYL041W 2.97 3.28 C# 3.33 3.68


I'm sorry the forum software reformats the table, can't retain columns. The figures are a little off. The data from Matthias' site is missing say d or e tuning with a 0.025" wound string, I have not recalculated it, so I use the next gauge down and mark it ++. And finally I am using Matthias' data for 580 mm scale for a 585 mm oud, and 610 mm scale for a 615 mm oud. When I have time, I'll recalc all of this based on the equations, but for now these are usable enough.

So what about that "modern high tuning?" For an ff course on an 'Arabic' oud, a 0.020" plain nylon is generally added to the generic string set for the highest course. If the oud has 6 courses, the bottom C string envelope is set aside. If it has 7 courses, all 7 courses is used. The tensions on such an ff course are 3.37 for a short scale and 3.73 Kg for a long scale. Tuning this ff course up to Turkish gg will not endanger anything in either case. But what you cannot do is "slide the set up" to where a 0.022" becomes ff, a 0.028" gets to be cc, a wound 0.025"W becomes gg, which is just about when you might notice the bridge and nut making Krunky sounds. If you experiment with strings, get a little caliper or micrometer, it's cheaper than a new oud and years of grief-counseling.

Shorter scale ouds probably have a bright future, as the full sized Arabic oud is a bit monstrous. There are ways to give a smaller oud more bass, but it's a little like loudspeakers, nothing like that 15" woofer ...

Quote: Originally posted by Aymara

Oops ... beware! I have an 58.5 arabic oud tuned to CFAdgc, but I use D'Addario's turkish string set. This combination gives me a perfect tension in the low to medium range. I bet, if I would tune this strings on my oud to the Turkish tuning, I would risk damaging bridge and soundboard as with a Turkish tuning on a long scale oud too.

Quote: Originally posted by rojaros

I have my turkish oud (58,5) equipped with D'Addario set and even in D I wouldn't say it's anything close to hard tension (maybe the third course a bit) I don't see any risk of damaging the sound board or bridge ...

thanks

Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka

Now that almost everyone tunes to concert (A=440) G, ...

Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka

... Arab musicians tune to "G", regardless of the instrument.

Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka

You can get a tuning fork for any note pretty much anywhere.

Quote: Originally posted by Aymara

Not in Germany, where I only saw different "A" tuning forks so far ... 440 Hz and 435 Hz for example.

Quote: Originally posted by Multi Kulti

Planet Waves for example produce in other notes too..