BaniYazid - 8-25-2010 at 10:42 AM
Hello 
I'm new here. I'm reading your posts for months and my love for the oud increase. It's a great pleasure to be on Mike's Oud Forum.
I'm not rich, but can't wait to buy a decent oud. So I searched for a used one on ebay and I buy ... tow ouds.
As I was expected, they are not famous, but I already love them even if they will finish as decorative ouds.
But I hope that one of them will be playable. This one comes with broken pegs, so I buy a new ebony pegs set here http://www.mediterranean-musicshop.com/product_info.php?cPath=77_36&products_id=547
The nut was a bad plastic one so I made a wood one. The pegbox was moving so I unglue it and reglue it... It was great doing that 
my first steps in luthery ! (not realy good job)
Now I want to enlarge the peg holes to put my new pegs. I was hesitating, I read some post here where it is said that it's better to shave the pegs. A
peg shaver is very expensive; I tried to sand one peg but it's not good looking. I went to a luthier, he says 120 euros 
I search for a reamer, but I don't know wich one to choose.
Can anyone see and help me here ? The pegs are like that :
length : 9 cm without the head
diameter : 9 mm / 6 mm
I find reamers here : http://www.mehr-als-werkzeug.de/category/dickcatalog/Herdim-Reibahlen-914_2633/detail.jsf
and here : http://www.luthimate.fr/outilsoutilschevilles-c-23_25.html
my ouds : the big one : 61,7 cm and the small one : 45,7 cm scale length
The small oud have a beautifull wood and is better made than the other
Thanks Mike for doing this forum, and thanks to all the members sharing there knowledges and there soul.
(excuse my poor english)
jdowning - 8-25-2010 at 12:35 PM
The most important item is the peg reamer. Once you have a reamer then it is not difficult to make your own peg shaper (or shaver) at low cost that
will exactly replicate the shank taper of your reamer.
The 'Herdim' reamers are quite expensive but offer a 1/25 taper for violin/lute/gamba which is ideal. A cheaper alternative would be a 1/30 taper
violin peg reamer offered by one of the American luthier supply companies (such as Stewart-MacDonald or Luthiers Mercantile International). This taper
works well and is a popular (and economic) choice for luthiers making.
Making a peg shaper starting with a reamer has already been covered in the past by myself and other forum members so do a search to locate the
particular threads.
fernandraynaud - 8-25-2010 at 01:11 PM
Hello!
I think that even with shipping these might be some of the least expensive. The adjustable shaver works pretty well, though it takes practice. The
plain reamers work well enough, the spiral ones are designed to cut more smoothly. In any case smoothing a hole by turning in the opposite direction
is as important as the cutting step. Dov Schmidt has viola pegs in various woods around $1-1.50 per peg. The important detail is that most oud pegs
have a steeper taper, say 1:15, than modern viola and violin pegs, and are designed to easily pop out, so that normally you tune while pressing in.
The 25:1 or 30:1 taper works well when everything is precisely shaped, and with hard rosewood or ebony pegs that "stay in".
It seems that because strings are crossing in the pegbox, because the width of pegs makes fine tuning difficult, and other mystery factors, my
experience is that even the most perfectly shaped pegs and holes may act strange, and every oud will have one or two troublesome pegs that resist all
efforts to improve them, even with the right tools. Sometimes it turns out that leaving things alone and putting up with little difficulties is the
smartest tactic, because you can't make it 100% perfect anyway. For instance rough wood on plain wood often works better than the most precisely
shaved and reamed ones.
It's too bad those lightweight planetary pegs are so expensive, I'd like to try them on one oud. But in reality, oud pegs are not a huge problem, just
part of the discipline.
http://www.internationalviolin.com/item_detail.aspx?ItemCode=T39
http://www.internationalviolin.com/item_detail.aspx?ItemCode=T410
BaniYazid - 8-25-2010 at 02:43 PM
Thanks for your answers jdowning and fernandraynaud.
I have already read this post jdowning http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=9582#pid715...
Why not making this home made peg shaper, I have to buy a large plane blade, 5 or 6 cm. But I have to read it again, I didn't understand evrything.
A reamer is a must for me because the peg holes are too bad, they are straght, not conics.
The standard stewmac reamer is good for the price, thanks fernandraynaud (funny french actor, like it 
) ) I send them a mail for shipping information to France.
I don't like the idea shaping my ebony pegs, I find them beautiful.
There is no problems, only solutions.
I'll come back with a reamer I hope, and other questions too.
Thanks again
fernandraynaud - 8-25-2010 at 03:32 PM
I was going to ask about the taper of your new ebony pegs, but then realized you probably have no way to measure. A very useful tool if you are
working on instruments is a (Chinese) digital caliper. You can usually find one around $10. You can measure diameter of holes, widths, thicknesses,
calculate taper as change in thickness over length, measure string gauges in metric or inches, etc. It seems many people have this exact one:
http://www.amazon.com/Caliper-Electronic-Stainless-Steel-Body/dp/B0...
jdowning - 8-25-2010 at 03:46 PM
That particular thread is not the one that I had in mind BaniYazid.
The only way to cut pegs to precisely fit the taper of your reamer is to use the reamer to make a peg cutter. I go into detail on how to do this in
"Restoration of Egyptian Oud - part 2, Pegbox and Pegs" dating back to 1-2-2007 on the Oud Project forum. Spare plane blades, required for making a
peg cutter or shaper, are not particularly expensive and may be purchased from Lee Valley tools of Ottawa.
The standard 1/30 taper peg reamer is just fine and is used by most luthiers (oud and lute). Pegs with this taper are much less prone to 'popping out'
(not good!) with humidity change than those with a 'steeper' taper.
The best woods for pegs are close grained, stable fruit woods like pear wood. The tropical hardwoods - particularly ebony - often contain abrasive
salt deposits that can cause accelerated wear. Boxwoods are hard and close grained but, if seasoned for less than 50 years or so, can be unstable.
However, I have successfully used all three types of wood for pegs over the past 30 years or so of luthier work.
BaniYazid - 8-26-2010 at 05:01 AM
Hello,
I appreciate your help
to fernandraynaud : here is the taper of my new pegs : 9 mm / 6 mm
to jdowning : I read your post "Restoration of Egyptian Oud - part 2, Pegbox and Pegs", very usefull but perhaps I don't need to shape my new pegs,
they are all the same.
I'll first try with only a reamer, and see.
I don't understand the meaning of 1/30, 1/20... taper what is the equivalence in millimeters, or is it the angle of the reamer ?
I think I'll buy this one, http://www.luthimate.fr/lousseviolon12aalto130-p-123.html
not very expensive and the store is in france, it will come in 2 days
see you soon
jdowning - 8-26-2010 at 05:05 AM
For anyone wishing to make their own peg cutters a low cost, high quality blade - purpose designed for this application - may be purchased from Lee
Valley Tools of Ottawa.
The blade is designed to be used in the Lee Valley range of tapered tenon cutter tools (i.e. a large peg cutter). They sell a replacement straight
blade for this tool measuring 63 mm wide by 2mm thick in carbon steel already sharpened - for only $5.95 Can.
Catalogue# 05J61.20.
Although already sharpened I find that the blade still needs a final honing to achieve the necessary razor sharpness required for peg cutting.
http://www.leevalley.com
BaniYazid - 8-26-2010 at 06:39 AM
This one is available in france or in europe, it's a replacement blade for peg shaper, I think I'll buy & try it http://www.gaignard-millon.com/produits.asp?categorie=Lutherie&...
wide : 80 mm
thick : 1 mm
price : 4,32 euros / 5,5 $ us
but can not sharpen it (the same which can be sharpened cost 8,64 euros / 11 $ us)
Thank you for the info jdowning
regards
jdowning - 8-26-2010 at 07:34 AM
The blade needs to be rigid for best results so you may have to use a thicker backing plate (wood or metal) to support and stiffen the blade - 1mm. is
rather thin.
Why can you not sharpen the blade?
BaniYazid - 8-26-2010 at 08:00 AM
The description of the product translated on line : Chrome steel blade tempered to a hardness of 61 RC. Reversible 2-edged. Not resharpenable.
I don't know if it's in correct english.
Why can not it be resharpen ? Is it because it's too thin, or because this sort of steel don't support sharpening 
?
jdowning - 8-26-2010 at 12:39 PM
Your translation from French to English is perfectly correct.
The blades are 'disposable' - throw away and buy new blades when blunt. Good business for the modern manufacturer but - of course - the blades, with a
bit of care, can easily be resharpened by hand like any other carbon steel blade.
Note that if you use this blade some clearance must be allowed for precise blade adjustment. The Lee Valley blade has slots which allow a lot of
adjustment. Given a choice I would pick the Lee Valley product.
fernandraynaud - 8-26-2010 at 12:49 PM
The "taper" is the steepness of the cone. So if your pegs were measured as 6mm to 9mm, and the length that this change occurs over is 90mm, then your
taper is:
(9 - 6) / 90 = 3 / 90 = 1 / 30 or 1:30. Most ouds use a steeper taper, like 1:15, because it's easier with softer woods and without precise and (as
you see) expensive tools. Sukar ouds have 1:15 on the cheaper models, and 1:30 in ebony on the most expensive.
Most replacement pegs seem ok but are not accurately tapered. If the hole is reamed to the theoretically correct taper, the peg may not quite
fit and e.g. then only one face of the peg box is fully engaged.. The way it's done is to ream and burnish a hole, then shave a peg until it fits
right, smooth it, work it in, then mark it for cutoff, and go to the next peg. Each peg is fitted for one specific hole, and numbered. On the oud
usually the pegs get shorter as you progress to the back, it looks nicer this way. It's a bit of work! On the other hand it's easy to waste pegs by
overshaving, and to damage pegboxes by over reaming.
I think you are right to make your own shaver, it's cheaper and probably works better. The adjustable shaver has problems with how the peg is held,
and with a hard ebony the forces required are huge, so it's tricky to do a smooth shaving, and the blade is quickly worn, or can break. John is right
to recommend a thicker blade.
BaniYazid - 8-27-2010 at 09:56 AM
Hello again
Thank you fernandraynaud for this cours de mathématiques, it's basic, I ashamed.
My pegs are like that : 6 mm to 9 mm and 63 mm length (whithout the head). So the taper is 1/21.
I thought I was patient, but with oud it seems I become a child again, I allready buy a 1/30 reamer before I learn more, it will come next week.
Perhaps it will work with a 1/30 if I shave and sand the tail of the pegs more than the rest.
If it's not possible I'll buy this one http://www.gaignard-millon.com/produits.asp?categorie=Lutherie&...
it's a 1/25 reamer for luth and viole, expensive one but it will encourage me to make a new peg box later.
Thanks jdowning for the advice, I asked Lee Valley for shipping cost to france and they says 15 $, that's good but take a long time...
I am impressed by the quality of work of many members of the forum and the quality of information offered. It's nice to receive, but it's even better
to give long life to Mike's oud forum.
fernandraynaud - 8-27-2010 at 04:16 PM
1:30 is a good taper. Chances that you can use the pegs in a correct hole without shaving them are not very high. But there's a trick that goes like
this. Instead of reaming out the hole fully, you ream a little, and try a peg, ream a little more, smooth a little by turning the opposite way, and
try again. It's opposite to a "tabula rasa" appoach, and it almost offends my need for order, but it usually works better. I think it's a good thing
to keep in mind that nothing will completely solve the problems; very seldom will you get perfectly seated pegs that don't skip, or work out, or slip,
or something. It seems something is always not quite perfect. I had an expert fix my troublesome DD pegs. He worked on them for half an hour, and
handed me the instrument with a proud smile. It's probably an illusion, but they seem only a little worse.
I have one oud that seems like it would have terrible problems. The nut slots are too deep, the pegs are a stained walnut or who knows, one cracked
and I super-glued it back together in anticipation of changing the pegs, they are uneven and I can see daylight between the pegs and the pegbox ;-)
Yet after a touch of chalk and soap the tuning is smooth and never a problem. I don't fully understand it. On another oud everything is fair until the
humidity drops, as it does sometimes here from 80 down to 20% within a few hours. The last time I picked that oud up and started tuning, ALL the pegs
suddenly unwound with a big BZOINGGGG.
Fortunately I had the opportunity to work with some ebony pegs from scratch, which taught me that a reasonably working peg set should be worshiped and
not "improved"! Once you accept that, you get a lot more pragmatic.
I think if you approach your ouds with the affection you are showing, you can make then work very well. For almost every problem, there are solutions
that don't cost a fortune, so best success!
Suite
BaniYazid - 9-2-2010 at 08:52 AM
Hello
I received my 1/30 reamer yesterday and reamed my peg holes and fit the peg 
Most of the pegs are well fitted (I suppose) some of them need a little adjustment, I think I'll sand the first peg hole to push the peg inside untill
it fit to the second peg hole. That's why I let my pegs long.
I want to know about string holes in the pegs. I search in the forum but don't find
Where is the best place to make this holes ? in the middle ? near one of the peg box side ? it depend on the strings ?
Sorry if the answer allready in the forum but realy I don't find.
Thank's for all
Alfaraby - 9-3-2010 at 12:27 AM
I'd prefer you ream even deeper, so that the remote pegs (2nd D, 2nd A, F, C) would be shorter, in a relative descending manner, than the closer ones
(C, G) & I'm relating to the traditional Arabic tuning (CGDAFC) !
Got me covered ? It's hard for me to explain technicalities, so pls. excuse me !
As to the strings holes, I think the center is the default place to drill, isn't it ?
Yours indeed
Alfaraby
BaniYazid - 9-3-2010 at 04:21 AM
Hello Alfaraby
Thank you for your advice, yes I'll use arabic tunning (CGDAFC) first.
Sure, It will be more aesthetic if I ream more le last pegs.
For the holes It'll be good compromise to drill in the middle, then I can turn the strings on the side where it interferes least.
thanks again