Mike's Oud Forums

High 'ff' or not? your views & preferences please

charlie oud - 9-28-2010 at 05:51 AM

Dearest Members, hello :wavey:

I seem to have settled on not using a high ff course most of the time though at times I switch back. It is strange how the whole instrument and approach feels so different with these two choices of stringing arrangement. I would be grateful if you would share your views and experiences on this subject as I am still exploring !!! My thanks.

Jonathan - 9-28-2010 at 07:41 AM

I don't understand. On an 11 string oud? You can tune it that high? What is the rest of the tuning like?
Thanks!

Reda Aouad - 9-28-2010 at 08:57 AM

He surely means he replaces the strings or shifts them to change tuning get either the bass C of the treble ff..

Charlie.. now that I have a 13-string oud I'm pretty satisfied !

But if I have an 11-string one (and I did).. I prefer the C > cc tuning.. I can't live without the bass C ! So I trained myself to play high on the cc string so I can along without the ff course. I also do it with my current oud for practice to be able to play any other oud (and seem more pro :cool: )

SamirCanada - 9-28-2010 at 09:28 AM

That's why we all need more then 1 oud. :)

Myself I hesitate to tune my traditional bridge ouds that way. But definitely it's a nice to have.

7 course could be the best of both worlds if you like them. They are not my thing though, I don't really like the look and also I find the fingerboard crowded. Z

mrkmni - 9-28-2010 at 12:42 PM

I have 11 strings with g aa dd gg cc ff

charlie oud - 9-29-2010 at 02:13 AM

Thank you for these replies, I will continue to explore. Sometimes I like the 5 course way FF AA dd gg cc as it can feel very complete and encourages me to play through all strings alot more. I'm wondering, what are you views on the 5 course way?

SamirCanada - 9-29-2010 at 03:46 AM

Hey Charlie
Thanks for voting on my contest thing btw.

I had that frame of mind for very long myself and I still think there is some value to it. If all the great oud players of the egyptian and syrian school played that way for centuries and were very proficient, then why not try to stick with that tuning and develop my skills going deep into the fingerboard. Also, Its better for the instrument long term because of the reduced tension.

I still have some ouds tuned only with 5 course but when I play with the high ff one, it opens up so much possibilities for melodies.

charlie oud - 9-29-2010 at 04:24 AM

Thanks Samir for the encouragement,

Yes I think I will persue the 5 course for a while more. It sits comfortably with me, feels agreeable and like you say, has served history well. My Sukar can also sound a bit piercing on the high ff course, this kinda puts me off a bit.

Edward Powell - 9-29-2010 at 04:28 AM

Quote: Originally posted by mrkmni  
I have 11 strings with g aa dd gg cc ff


this must be a relatively small oud?

Edward Powell - 9-29-2010 at 04:32 AM

Quote: Originally posted by charlie oud  
Thank you for these replies, I will continue to explore. Sometimes I like the 5 course way FF AA dd gg cc as it can feel very complete and encourages me to play through all strings alot more. I'm wondering, what are you views on the 5 course way?


It is good to keep in mind that maqam music was originally not intended to have any kind of exaggerated range. Maqam is meant to fit into the range of the human voice.

What I am saying is that if you play pure maqam and follow a traditional seyir, then you will never need anything more than a 5 course oud. I find myself rarely using more than 5 courses. That is, once I choose my tuning position - from there I only ever usually use 5 courses - - - - however having an instrument with a wider range can allow you the variety of shifting from a low to a high tuning system in the middle of a concert.

Personally I usually don't like it if the playing goes out of character for a particular maqam... for example, if you are playing RAST, or USSAK, then because these are low area maqams, then the playing is more in character if you simply remain in the low zone. Modern players however often start RAST and then in no time are zooming off into the high f string on their 13 string ouds. This is exciting modern playing... but in my opinion not anymore MAQAM RAST.

I know we now live in times where "over-stimulation" is necessary just to be noticed..... but there is something to be said for the sober simplicity of doing our best within a modest range of possibilities (I know I am not one to talk, considering my own attempts to stretch the boundaries of the oud - but if I have learned anything along the way it is to respect simplicity and modesty).

charlie oud - 9-29-2010 at 04:50 AM

Edward,

I appreciate what you are saying and would add that when I hear higher notes on an oud I sometimes feel the "oud-ness" is a little less convincing, like it coud be a mandolin or some other instrument doing this. Where as the bass in oud sound is always an evocative oud sound exclusively. Unique to ouds, like nothing else can sound this way.

Edward Powell - 9-29-2010 at 05:13 AM

I also think the oud can sound amazing in many registers. For example one of my very favorite oudis is Y.Bacanos --- and he is well known for playing very high. He has the high ff course, and he usually uses the 3rd nylon as his DUGAH note. Therefore everything sounds high, but his MAKAM is still traditionally accurate because the low area makams are being started high - yes, almost as if being played on a different instrument. . . . but what a great sound anyway!

mrkmni - 9-29-2010 at 05:21 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Edward Powell  
Quote: Originally posted by mrkmni  
I have 11 strings with g aa dd gg cc ff


this must be a relatively small oud?


Not really Sukar Model 1
61.5 cm

Sazi - 9-29-2010 at 06:26 PM

Excuse me, those who know, but...

Judging from a couple of comments here- "how do you tune that high" & " must be a... small oud" - it appears a few people are perhaps unclear about the fact that it is not a matter of tuning the standard strings up a 4th higher, but the addition of a thinner pair added to the set for the high ff's.

I couldn't live without my high ff's, but do love and miss the low C!

charlie oud - 9-30-2010 at 02:50 AM

Yes Sazi, you are right we are talking about adding the thinner string and losing the single bass C or D.

Funny You miss the low C though could'nt be without the high ff.

I am starting to settle with niether by playing 5 course FF AA dd gg cc. For me this gives a fullness of the two octaves in Nahawand all very neatly under the left hand. I.e. G on 5th to g open 2nd for the dominant, and C on 4th to c open 1st for the tonic. Nice and cosy in 3 or 4 note bite size chunks!!!

Of course the important thing is that we all find our way and stay open minded to change if we feel like experimenting

SamirCanada - 9-30-2010 at 03:28 AM

I am telling you Charlie,
this is where you can make the arguments to your significant other that you should own at least 3 ouds ;)

charlie oud - 9-30-2010 at 03:36 AM

Indeed. She knows I'm keen and after more ouds, I'm trying to play it cool, not push my luck.

Sazi - 9-30-2010 at 04:03 AM

Quote: Originally posted by SamirCanada  
I am telling you Charlie,
this is where you can make the arguments to your significant other that you should own at least 3 ouds ;)



That is SO true!:bounce:

(you can quote me on that to the missus if you think it might help :D... it didn't with mine... but we still see each other occasionally) :cool:

charlie oud - 9-30-2010 at 04:21 AM

:D :D :D :applause: Cheers Saz, I'll let her know, then I'll stand back in case she does this :bounce:

Sazi - 9-30-2010 at 05:18 AM

:D Hehe!, it's funny, we play more music together now than ever.
Quote: Originally posted by charlie oud  

Funny You miss the low C though could'nt be without the high ff.


Well, when I'm playing the music my oud (floating bridge) and tuning (Iraqi) were designed for I need the high ff's, and don't need the low C, I have exactly what I need, nothing more, nothing less. But I sometimes feel like playing something deep and soulful, and the low C would be a must-have for me, along with the generally lower tension of a fixed bridge oud. The case for a few ouds is a very strong one... er... excuse that pun. :rolleyes:

charlie oud - 9-30-2010 at 06:37 AM

Iraqi tuning is FF CC dd gg cc ff Yes?, I love this tuning too, the open CC is so rich.
:rolleyes: Oh no, thats another oud I need.

:D Nice pun Saz.... more accurately, you will need more than one case for a few ouds :)

Thanks to all for contributing to this thread, its been a delight :applause:

Multi Kulti - 9-30-2010 at 10:51 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Edward Powell  
...For example one of my very favorite oudis is Y.Bacanos --- and he is well known for playing very high. He has the high ff course, and he usually uses the 3rd nylon as his DUGAH note. Therefore everything sounds high, but his MAKAM is still traditionally accurate because the low area makams are being started high - yes, almost as if being played on a different instrument. . . . but what a great sound anyway!


Edward what makes you to say that Bacanos used high ff course? Thats cannot be. First of all he used the all fourths tuning (C#C# F#F# BB ee aa dd). If he would use a high course that would be gg because of the turkish tonic.
But of course he had the ability and technik to play in the higher register with accuracy and he was a master on it.
Correct me if im wrong

best regards

Nikos

Edward Powell - 9-30-2010 at 12:16 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Multi Kulti  
Quote: Originally posted by Edward Powell  
...For example one of my very favorite oudis is Y.Bacanos --- and he is well known for playing very high. He has the high ff course, and he usually uses the 3rd nylon as his DUGAH note. Therefore everything sounds high, but his MAKAM is still traditionally accurate because the low area makams are being started high - yes, almost as if being played on a different instrument. . . . but what a great sound anyway!


Edward what makes you to say that Bacanos used high ff course? Thats cannot be. First of all he used the all fourths tuning (C#C# F#F# BB ee aa dd). If he would use a high course that would be gg because of the turkish tonic.
But of course he had the ability and technik to play in the higher register with accuracy and he was a master on it.
Correct me if im wrong

best regards

Nikos


no I am also not completely sure... but of course he was in turk tuning... i don't know if he used the "tiz cargah" high course - but i think he used the A nylon course as DUGAH.

i love that sound!

Sazi - 9-30-2010 at 04:12 PM

Quote: Originally posted by charlie oud  
Iraqi tuning is FF CC dd gg cc ff Yes?, I love this tuning too, the open CC is so rich.
:rolleyes: Oh no, thats another oud I need.


:D you got it!

Yes, I love the rich resonance of ouds with doubled tunings, like the CC & cc, F & ff of Iraqi or the Turkish E's & A's (EABead).

mrkmni - 9-30-2010 at 06:14 PM

Quote: Originally posted by mrkmni  
Quote: Originally posted by Edward Powell  
Quote: Originally posted by mrkmni  
I have 11 strings with g aa dd gg cc ff


this must be a relatively small oud?


Not really Sukar Model 1
61.5 cm


So do you recommend to keep this tuning or go to FF CC DD gg cc ff
tks

Sazi - 9-30-2010 at 07:07 PM

Quote: Originally posted by mrkmni  

So do you recommend to keep this tuning or go to FF CC DD gg cc ff
tks


For the type of music you play you have a good tuning already, the Iraqi tuning is highly specialized, ideal for the Iraqi repertoire and rather less versatile when it comes to the classics, (or requires some tricky fancy finger-work to make up for the missing open A). So I believe you are better off with F A d g c (f), G A d g c (f) or C F A d g c

Edward Powell - 9-30-2010 at 09:12 PM

the point is that a large body is capable of reproducing deeper frequencies than a smaller body - and a smaller body oud will have better response in the high register - so logically, it makes sense to use higher tuning and string configurations on a smaller oud, and vise versa.

for example, you will not put cello strings on a violin, or violin strings on a cello ;)

DaveH - 10-1-2010 at 01:08 AM

Hi Charlie

Like you say in your first post, I think they're pretty much different instruments. I like the sonority of the high f for higher, delicate playing, but in the end, I think very few ouds respond very resonantly on the high f string. Floating bridges do sometimes work well - perhaps more often than fixed, but for my part, I've always missed the effectiveness in the mid to low range, so I've switched to c-c tuning. I find my floating bridge, which is not especially lightly built, responds better in these ranges, and I now prefer the playing styles that use them.

See you Sunday!

Edward Powell - 10-1-2010 at 05:36 AM

oud playing in Turkish is at an extremely advance level, and you will basically never find an 7 course ouds over there - they basically don't exist. Personally I feel that makam music is not about playing in a vast range - as we said, 5 course ouds were the norm for centuries...

I now feel that a 6 course oud is a very good way to go - it is a good compromise between the ancient simplicity, and modern demands for greater range.

Reda Aouad - 10-1-2010 at 06:39 AM

For me, a 7-course oud is a way to play different styles on the oud without having to have several ouds. It's not a matter of range but flexibility. I agree that Rast on the very high octave is non-sense..

Edward Powell - 10-1-2010 at 07:01 AM

yes... it is nice to have flexibility these days. . . . . afterall I myself "need" so much flexibility that I have 31 strings on my "oud" :))

I think "rast" can be played anywhere and can be beautiful - but the point is that if it is played high, then it is no longer a 'traditional rast', therefore the name should not be RAST as not to confuse people because one of the distinguishing features of original rast is the LOW register. [now, having said this, I realise that I myself have been recently somewhat guilty of this when I combined RAGA SARASWATI and MAKAM RAST.... and the rast part was in the very high register. No wonder it didn't sound much like rast :rolleyes: --- the sound is very nice, but NOT much like rast]