Mike's Oud Forums - Powered by XMB

Wanting to play Saz

Zulu - 2-25-2011 at 01:26 PM

I know it's off oud topic...if there is another forum more appropriate for my questions please let me know.
I'm very interested in buying/learning saz.
Not sure where to buy.
Any oud/saz players; let me know your experience with saz.
I'm very serious about buying a good saz.
I now play bass, cello & oud.
Thanks!

fernandraynaud - 2-25-2011 at 06:54 PM

I happened to find one on craigs list. Maybe it's just me, but it doesn't begin to approach the expressiveness of the oud. It looks like one can order one from one of the Turkish online vendors, they make a lot of them, it's more of a commodity item than an oud. The first thing to decide is whether you want short or long neck, both have advantages. If you are very serious, these guys look serious too, though I've only gotten strings from them.

http://www.touchtheearth.com/saz.htm

Zulu - 2-25-2011 at 09:28 PM

Thanks Fernand,
I emailed them some questions.
I must agree, As a solo instrument I prefer the richer expressiveness of the oud. I'd like to get a saz and lay down simple secondary accompaniment to my primary oud tracks; I think it would be complimentary.
I'll let you know how things progress.

Alan-TX - 2-26-2011 at 08:39 AM

I don't play the Saz. I have heard good things about this vendor http://touchtheearth.com/saz.htm.

fernandraynaud - 2-27-2011 at 06:23 AM

Tuning the saz makes me feel guilty, because I can't follow what they are talking about. Remember how Turkish music for the oud is notated with an offset? And then they tune the oud a note higher than Arabic oud? On the saz who knows what's happening. There are hundreds of tunings, short neck, long neck, but wait, there are 19 and 23 fret types, but don't worry, the long neck is often tuned like a short neck, and there are additional really long neck ones and really short ones, and the notation is offset, so when they say a long neck saz is often tuned in A, they mean its really sounding a Bb like a clarinet notated in D, except it's really Rast, but not on Fridays, when it's Bayati, but transposed down a little bit. I get a headache and lose brain cells even thinking about saz tunings, and I understand why the guy sold it.

Sazi - 2-27-2011 at 07:15 PM

[rquote=79800&tid=11664&author=fernandraynaud... the long neck is often tuned like a short neck [/ rquote]

Actually, I think you'll find that it is the other way around.

Long neck with short-neck tuning is REALLY hard, looong stretches, assuming the strings don't break first.

The long necked sazlar in Kara Düzeni have a richer sound, used mainly with rhythmic tezene, for dance tunes, short-necked instruments can easily be tuned and used for that style as well as the generally more complex Aşık/Bağlama Düzeni style of much Alevi music.

Hey Zulu, some basic beginner info here... http://www.khafif.com/rhy/saz/

Good luck!

Zulu - 2-27-2011 at 10:40 PM

Sazi,

I am buying a long neck saz, can you suggest a tuning for me to start with that would be most comfortable?
Not sure if it matters but my oud is tuned CFADGC.

Thanks!

Marcus - 2-28-2011 at 02:19 AM

Quote:

There are hundreds of tunings, short neck, long neck, but wait, there are 19 and 23 fret types, but don't worry, the long neck is often tuned like a short neck, and there are additional really long neck ones and really short ones, and the notation is offset, so when they say a long neck saz is often tuned in A, they mean its really sounding a Bb like a clarinet notated in D, except it's really Rast, but not on Fridays, when it's Bayati, but transposed down a little bit.

)

)

LOL!!!!

fernandraynaud - 2-28-2011 at 11:09 AM

Hey Zulu, FWIW,
I have a long neck 23 fret and I leave it tuned (face to feet) (Ust to Alt): Cc gg Ddd
Why I don't say "low to high" will be apparent to you after a while. As I recall that's more of a short neck tuning, but that's as far as I recall. This is a vanilla tuning in 5ths I think, of which the more common is: G D A. Cranking it up to C G D sounds bright and loud - zzzzoingggg.

If you get stuck on strings, look up my previous posts -- stuff that has been pushed out of my mind by more recent info. I once understood what they meant by different designations for the strings and even mic'ed them.

You are fearless warrior? sample the tunings here:

Http://www.turkuler.com/baglama/duzen.asp

Sazi - 2-28-2011 at 05:19 PM

That Turkish site brought something to mind.., even the Turks have conflicting ideas on what's what, ( as Fer'd explained rather well, Lol ) with widely differing names for the different sized instruments and their associated tunings.

There are a number of reasons for this, - there has never really been a "standard" - they are Folk instruments whose sizes, tunings and playing styles have traditionally varied from region to region.

As far as tunings go they are usually described using the Tonic Sol-Fa method, - it is the intervals which are relevant, not the actual pitch.

I'g suggest using the tuning Fer'd uses: Cc gg Ddd, which is more properly :-

BOZUK(KARA) DÜZEN LA RE SOL ( "STANDARD" LONG NECK )

But as there really is no (nationwide) standard, only manufacturers standard, the neck length could vary enough in either direction to mess with your preferences, possibly breaking strings (which you'll do a bit of anyway).

A quick note here about the names of the sizes, which are covered by only 2 available types/guages of string...

There are SAZ strings and there are Bağlama strings. Saz literally just means "instrument" but in the case of strings refers to all long necked sazlar.

Bağlama strings are lighter guages and refer to shortneck sazlar which are tuned in an inversion, as in LA SOL RE.

A Turkish saz teacher I spoke to said he uses Bağlama strings on his long-necks to get them comfortable at a pitch of La = C , and you may find your Saz wants to be at LA = B half flat or something equally as useful (sarcasm).

Ordering an instrument to concert tuning spec from a good maker would be the best way to go.
Cheers, S

Zulu - 2-28-2011 at 07:47 PM

Below is some info and pics sent to me from Touch the Earth, they are very friendly and helpful...

Please find enclosed images of some of the saz we talked about. The ones you see with standard sound holes at top and bottom will run $475.00 All pictured have piezo pickup in the bridge. There are two saz with swivelling door at the sound hole and these are $25.00 extra, or $500.00 each. I have one not pictured which is juniper wood with pickup and mechanical tuners instead of friction pegs. That one sells for $575.00. I can photograph it for you if you wish, just let me know. These are all excellent instruments and, in my opinion, are the best saz for the money available.
I have hard cases and soft cases to fit all of theses saz.
If you have any questions I will be pleased to try to answer them for you.

Sazi - 2-28-2011 at 09:10 PM

I'd buy a saz from them if I was in the market for one.

Just a quick note regarding the way they are made, -

Oyma, or hollowed out from one block, and

Yaprak, or leaves, made from strips like an oud.

Oyma was once the predominant method, but now yaprak is more usual...

It is interesting to see the oyma saz are generally much cheaper, as my experience is that they often have a warmer sound with longer sustain than the sometimes thin sounding yapraks... perception of the "class" of the work perhaps, Oyma type tend to be less decorated with plain round soundholes ( i.e. more "primitive" ) while the yaprak type requires more work to cover the irregularities in the ribs, and the longer soundholes tend to be decorated with rosettes, and modern finishes. Another reason could be simply down to changing tastes in tonality... tuning has certainly risen in pitch, commonly by around a 4th in the last 30 years, and playing has become quite technical, necessitating a different response from the instrument... A good analogy there would probably be the Iraqin floating bridge oud.

I'd personally prefer a good Oyma saz, though I have had great examples of both, but either way I would prefer to try them in person, and you definitely can't go on looks,- I have reluctantly passed up a beautifully made and decorated saz and settled for a plain one due to the feel of the neck and the tone and volume/dynamics when playing them.

saz plectrum question

Zulu - 3-1-2011 at 10:43 PM

First of all, thanks to all of you for helping me with my saz search; :bowdown:

if not for this forum my questions would have gone unanswered.
I am buying a long neck 23 fret saz from Touch the Earth.
I do have a plectrum question...
I have seen the short fat saz picks online.
I would never dream of playing oud with a guitar pick for reasons all of us are aware of; should I have the same attitude towards possibly playing saz with my oud rishas?
Is the short fat pic best for saz? Is it the traditional plectrum for saz or is the long risha acceptable as well? :shrug:

Marcus - 3-1-2011 at 11:02 PM

Hi Zulu, :wavey:

a year ago I had the same pick-problem with the saz.
First i tried to play with the "regular" saz-pick , but it was to soft for me. Than I changed to a guitar-pick (Dunlop medium),that worked better but still i didn`t feel comfortable with it. While waiting for a harder saz-pick I tried one of the rishas(the thin pyramid) and that was perfect for me.
So, I think you`ll have to find out what suites you best. Dont worry about what is acceptable or not, for whoever, and use the pick that works best for you.

All the best,

Marcus

P.S.: Here is a clip of Pire (flea) Mehmet,a unbelievable long-neck-player.Hope you enjoy it.

Sazi - 3-2-2011 at 08:18 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Zulu

Is the short fat pic best for saz? Is it the traditional plectrum for saz or is the long risha acceptable as well? :shrug:

The short softer "mızrap" is as close as you'll get to traditional unless you have a cherry tree handy, as they used to be made from slices of cherry bark.

While I'm a firm "whatever works for you" believer, - as with oud, I think if you are going to want to play trad styles, and a lot of that cool feel and sound is the rhythmic tezene, (picking/strumming patterns), and soundboard tapping techniques, then you really need to use the right tool for the job, and just as oud has a correct risha and risha-holding position for good technique so does saz, and a risha held as a saz pick is just plain clumsy.

I have made a saz pick by cutting one of the standard Pyramid rishas (thinner than the pro) to length with good results.

Just remember, those strings are very thin and light tension, and very low string height, you don't want to be using anything near the thickness or stiffness of pick you'd use for other instruments with heavier/tighter strings.

All the best, S

Whoah, Marcus, that guy's like lightning! Thanx for the link.

Alan-TX - 3-2-2011 at 11:13 AM

Sazi,

I don't play Saz but I do play the Buzuq some. How do you hold a Saz pick?

For the Buzuq I am using the pyramid rishas and they work well. But I have no idea how the the risha for a buzuq is commonly held. From what I can tell the risha is the same as the Saz.

Alan

Zulu - 3-2-2011 at 03:47 PM

Since I don't know any saz players I will have to be self taught from YouTube videos.

Sazi - 3-3-2011 at 12:19 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Alan-TX

How do you hold a Saz pick? Alan

Excuse the low quality phone images...

Lay the pick along the length of your finger from the first joint, it will naturally hang over the end of your finger around 1/4" or so, as you can see, if you tried to hold an oud risha like this it wouldn't get past the middle joint on your finger.

The second image shows the middle finger in the process of tapping the rhythm on the soundboard while picking, which when playing all courses together is a kind of light brushing over the strings. (The finger is not normally rested on the soundboard.)

Hope that helps explain things a bit.

fernandraynaud - 3-3-2011 at 04:21 AM

Hey, Zulu, you move fast, mabruk! To tell you the truth, if you can afford it, more power to ya. I got an incredible deal on what turns out to be a pretty darned good saz, and I installed a dual head piezo pickup on the soundboard. It sounds good. But after getting to know it, and being able to play the oud, and other instruments, personally I wouldn't dream of spending a lot of money on a fancier saz. Yes, it's in the lute family and it has a unique sound. But to me, the saz compares to the oud like an ocarina or a melodica compares to a symphonic flute or a ney, or a button accordion to a grand piano.

It has a lot to do with issues that surface in relation to the pick. On picks, I think Sazi has the right idea. Nothing like the genuine article. A typical saz pick is very soft, almost like a slice of gummy bear. I keep losing mine, so I often have to play with a home-made one, a sanded down and cut down piece-o'-plastic risha about an inch and a half long. You want to start from a soft substance, something like nylon or soft poly, not delrin.

Why? The saz strings are meant to be very low. On my long-neck I measure 1.8 mm at the neck-body junction, and 5.5 mm at the bridge. My 212 Sukar oud's strings sit 2.5 mm above the neck-body junction, and 11.8 mm at the bridge. I play the oud over the pick-guard or nearer the soundhole, and that gives the risha almost 10 mm clearance over the soundboard, and about 10 mm between courses. On the saz you see a lot of players playing near the neck, i.e. no more than 2 mm over the soundboard, but even in the middle of the soundboard it's about 3 mm, and 6-8 mm between courses. That "saz" a lot, right there! There's no room to aim and "pick", it's more like strummin'. A hard pick makes no sense, it could make noise against the soundboard. The soft saz pick is the right tool under the circumstances.

If you lose (or eat) your slice-o'-gummy, don't overlook the finger-strumming style they call "selpe".

I've found that if you're comfortable 3 finger picking on the guitar, Fahey style, that's a very useful complementary technique on the oud (retaining the risha in the hand), but again difficult on the saz for lack of clearance.

It's a very odd instrument. I'm not very happy with the C G D tuning in the end (or any of the 5ths equivalents). I thought that being "regular", it would "make sense". But a salient saz-thing is that the saz is not ascending like an oud or a violin, so it's not an intrinsically melodic instrument unless you stick to the top course. It's "circular": each course except the middle one has treble and bass strings, so as you ascend in pitch, you also descend. That should be great for chording.

I'm going to have to try some other tunings, because the 5ths way I'm finding only good for a few chords off the tonic, and melody on one course, with that eternal drone. That's why it tends to sound that droney way. There's got to be a less limiting approach, maybe based on chord sequences in different tunings, but then again there are other instruments I am more drawn to spend my limited life on. I'm not out to malign the saz, but rather to tell you how it struck me, coming from guitar, bass, and oud. Maybe I'm just running out of brain cells.