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What strings to use for 63 cm scale Abdo Nahat Oud

Alfaraby - 3-16-2011 at 03:52 AM

Hello Buddies
I have an Abdo Nahat's 63 cm scale string oud, but not sure enough what strings would be the best for such a scale (regular tuning: Bb, F, C, G, Eb, Bb) !!
I've tried the Pyramid 650 set, but noticed they don't match .
I thought of Pyramid Lute set, but don't really know what gauge to look for !
How does this matter go ? The longer the thicker , or vise versa ?
It has been ages since I last studied physics

, so excuse my ignorance.

Any suggestions/advises ?

Thank you
Yours indeed
Alfaraby

Danielo - 3-16-2011 at 04:20 AM

Dear Alfaraby,

here's my proposal, with Savarez copper wounds + Aquila plain nylgut for the trebles (I like this combination on my Hanna!)

Lowest to highest (tensions calculated with a standard 440Hz diapason):
Bb : NFC 622 (3,3 kg)
Eb : NFC 272 (3,3 kg)
G: NFC 212 (3,2 kg)
C: NFC 122 (3,3 kg)
F: 79 NG (3,2 kg)
Bb: 60 NG (3,3 kg)

If the oud is really fragile, you may have to go even lower in tension.

My salary ? Pictures of your oud and details

regards,

Dan

Matthias - 3-16-2011 at 06:27 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Danielo

Bb : NFC 622 (3,3 kg)
Eb : NFC 272 (3,3 kg)
G: NFC 212 (3,2 kg)
C: NFC 122 (3,3 kg)
F: 79 NG (3,2 kg)
Bb: 60 NG (3,3 kg)

Dan

Hello Danielo,

I do not agree completely:
for the Eb -->> NFC 352
and the Nylguts should be a bit more thicker, as NYLGUT has a bit less density:
F: 82 NG (3,2 kg)
Bb: 62 NG (3,3 kg)

I have all theese strings on stock, the strings can be ordered therough my shop.
The Nylguts are the new type in gut color

Regards

Matthias

ameer - 3-16-2011 at 08:58 AM

Generally the longer the scale length the more tension you will get on a given string than with a shorter one. The nylgut setup will serve you well I think. As an alternative consider dadario rectified nylon trebbles. I use .024", .030" and .040" and can get a decent tension. Given the increased scale length of your oud you might do even better.

Brian Prunka - 3-16-2011 at 09:30 AM

Quote: Originally posted by ameer

Generally the longer the scale length the more tension you will get on a given string than with a shorter one. The nylgut setup will serve you well I think. As an alternative consider dadario rectified nylon trebbles. I use .024", .030" and .040" and can get a decent tension. Given the increased scale length of your oud you might do even better.

I also like the D'Addario rectified nylons, and use similar gauges on an old 61cm oud. Since you're tuning down a whole step, the tension might be a bit too low.
To match the above tensions (Matthias, as usual, is very thorough!) you would ideally use .027 and .035 for Bb and F. Unfortunately, D'Addario doesn't make a .035 nylon, so .034 would be the best choice, yielding 3KG.

Labella also makes good rectified nylons for their lute strings, but they are a little difficult to find. Pyramid rectified nylons are also very good.

Adel Salameh - 3-16-2011 at 11:45 AM

Ahlan Jamil, kefak?
If you have an original Abdo nahat oud ...63 cm it means that this instrument is quite fragile.....
I will say
For the top C ( Kardan)Nylon strings 057.5
the G (Nawa) 077.5
2.8KG is very good not more than this other wise you will destroy your oud.
I also will adivce you to go for strings like pyramids or savarez.....
do no use these strings things called D Addario or la bella.... they are not- worth it....
Aquilla is very good strings but you have to be very very carefull if you use them....you must ask people like Matthias or Mimmo who is the person who is making these strings in Italy....you should ask 2.8 Kg.

your oud is very old and needs certain attension and you should look after it.
Salamaty,
Adel

Brian Prunka - 3-16-2011 at 12:54 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Adel Salameh

2.8KG is very good not more than this other wise you will destroy your oud.
I also will adivce you to go for strings like pyramids or savarez.....
do no use these strings things called D Addario or la bella.... they are not- worth it....

While I wouldn't recommend D'Addario or LaBella "oud" sets on this oud, their rectified nylon strings are quite different and are very good quality.

I agree that he should be careful with Aquilas and would need a custom set. Even their "superlight" oud set is 3.7kg.

Adel certainly makes a very good point. While I'm not convinced that 3.3kg is too high, with an old and valuable instrument it is much better to err on the side of lower tension than risk damage. You can always use heavier strings later if you find the tension too low and think the oud can handle it.

Adel Salameh - 3-16-2011 at 01:20 PM

I agree with you Brian when it comes to new oud....I use 3KG for my wolfgang Fruh oud....3.2 is the max I will use for a new oud.... this is what I have always used....not only me , my friend Anouar Brahem uses 2.8 on his ouds.....we are not interested in sound of a guitar....the more you push your oud the more guitar sound you got....and this is not the case with Abdo nahat oud.
I think we have to be very careful when it comes to old ouds.....they are very fragile....when I say Savarez strings or pyramid, I am talking about LUTE strings.....this in Europe will be around 50 Euros....safe your oud.

as for D addario strings and la bella ... I do not know their rectified nylon strings, as far as I am concerned what we see in the market they can be used as washing lines to hang your clothes nothing more....sorry to say this.
good luck to everyone of you.

Adel

Brian Prunka - 3-16-2011 at 04:00 PM

Thanks for your comments, Adel. I very much agree with you about avoiding guitar-like sound on the oud. I know Simon Shaheen also uses about 2.8-3.2 kg on his ouds, so there is some consensus among this.
I also personally like a lower tension, with Pyramid lute strings.

It seems that many of these old instruments were usually played at lower pitch and consequently lower tensions.

best,
Brian

Alfaraby - 3-17-2011 at 04:08 AM

Thanks very much indeed everybody. This is very enlightening !
I shall check every word & let you know.
Meanwhile, Pyramid regular strings are not this bad, but yet there's a place for improvement.
I asked "Pyramid" to check this issue & suggest their lute strings set for such an oud. Once I get their reply, I shall post it.
BTW, as much as I could detect, it's not this fragile soundboard, so I may dare a little bit more.
Anyhow, I'll let you know what comes up next.

Yours indeed
Alfaraby

Alfaraby - 3-28-2011 at 02:56 AM

So folks, here's Pyramid Lute strings suggestion for 2.8 kgm tension :

c'c' (nylon) : 0,600
gg (nylon) : 0,775
dd : 1008
AA : 1014
FF : 1020
C : 1035

What do you think ?

Thanks again
Yours indeed
Alfaraby

ameer - 3-28-2011 at 12:09 PM

That's exactly what I suggested above. I'm glad Pyramid and I are in agreement.

Dr. Oud - 3-30-2011 at 06:29 PM

Good advice about low tension, I would add that whatever string you use, be very careful about the pitch you tune to. These old faces are very thin and weak from the natural deterioration of the wood cellular structure over time. This can result in severe damage if the tension is too high while attempting to tune to a "standard" pitch. I have seen even moderate tension pull the bridge OUT OF, not just off the face. You are then left with a hole in the face, which can be patched, but the sound cannot be restored. I would advise every antique oud owner to tune their instrument to the lowest pitch that makes a musical tone, whatever pitch that is.

Check out Livia Yacooub's Nahat in Brazil site...
http://altarab.multiply.com/photos/album/5/5
http://altarab.multiply.com/photos/album/6/6
http://altarab.multiply.com/photos/album/7/7

Danielo - 3-30-2011 at 09:48 PM

Hi Richard,

If you adapt the string gauges in order to stay at a low tension, is it ok to keep an ancient oud at standard pitch ?

thanks,

Dan

PS: a good way lowering the the overall tension low (by 10% which is not neglibible) is simply to use a single F string.

Adel Salameh - 3-31-2011 at 02:04 AM

I agree with Richard.... keep the tension low....
the guages that pyramid gave you is what i use for my new oud, very solid instrument....it was made especialy to adapt to all kind of weathers around the World.....the scale length of this oud is 61.5 not 63 cm ....
go at least half a tone lower with this quages.
Best wishes,
Adel

Alfaraby - 4-1-2011 at 12:26 AM

Thanks friends !
I'm not sure Pyramid understood what I had ordered. I asked for a set for a 63 cm scale old oud, tuned a whole tone lower. I also indicated the exact tuning : Bb F C G Eb Bb, but they seem they've skipped this last specification. Apparently they've chosen a set for "regular" tuning: C G D A F C ! Therefore I asked you what do you think about their suggestion for this specific oud.

In general, I think oud (both old & new) should never be tuned as high as CGDAFC. The highest pitch should never exceed B F# C# ... etc. I have a new oud that could not bear a higher pitch than 1.5 lower tone ( A# for C, E for G etc.) with Pyramid 650 set.

So, what do you think I should do ? Take Pyramid suggested set, or what ?

Thank you very much indeed
Yours
Alfaraby

Brian Prunka - 4-1-2011 at 07:16 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Alfaraby

So folks, here's Pyramid Lute strings suggestion for 2.8 kgm tension :

c'c' (nylon) : 0,600
gg (nylon) : 0,775
dd : 1008
AA : 1014
FF : 1020
C : 1035

What do you think ?

Thanks again
Yours indeed
Alfaraby

The strings they listed above would be around 3 kg at the pitches listed (a little more, actually).

They would be about 2.8kg if you tuned down 1/2 step, I think.
Tuned down a whole step, will be about 2.5kg.

So they should be fine, maybe a little light if you tune all the way down to Bb.

Matthias is better at calculating tensions, maybe he has some advice.

Sazi - 4-1-2011 at 03:40 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka

Quote: Originally posted by Alfaraby

I'm not a maths person, but as it is they who make them, wouldn't Pyramid know more about their own string tensions?

No offence to Matthias, he has helped me greatly in the past, but also has at times suggested strings which felt way tighter than comfortable, possibly due to the geometry of the particular oud, the same strings feeling fine on another.

Adel speaks from long experience with these ouds, I would be inclined to listen to him.

Regardless, best wishes Alfaraby.

Dr. Oud - 4-2-2011 at 08:00 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Danielo

Hi Richard,

If you adapt the string gauges in order to stay at a low tension, is it ok to keep an ancient oud at standard pitch ?

thanks,

Dan

PS: a good way lowering the the overall tension low (by 10% which is not negligible) is simply to use a single F string.

However you can measure the tension will not tell you what the old oud face can withstand. Best to trust the oud and your ear. The nylon strings are very low tension compare to the wound ones, one less will not make a big difference.

Brian Prunka - 4-2-2011 at 08:27 AM

I think he was referring to the 5th course wound F.