Mike's Oud Forums

Sympathetic strings on the oud

Giorgioud - 6-14-2012 at 06:27 AM

Hello oud lovers,
I was toying with the idea of putting some sympathetic strings on the upper part of one of my ouds. About 9, as there won't be room for more. Why on earth, I hear you asking? Because I watched this
http://youtu.be/AH0u_Mh76kk
and I was really impressed.
I talked to my trusted luthier Bob Alexander from Horsham, Sussex UK, who told me that it could be done, but the drastic modifications required to carry out such an action would dramatically change the sound of the oud. And the size of my ever-shrinking wallet.
I just want to know if there is any of you out there who had done something similar to a hapless oud (I can already see the "traditionalists" shouting sacrilege, throwing their hands in the air and asking for capital punishment, but I digress), and if they did, how much has the sound changed? Does it still resemble, even remotely, an oud, or does it end up sounding, say, like a banjo (a cheap one at that) or God forbid, a guitar?
If someone wants to share the experience, I'd be happy to listen and take it on board.
Regards
Giorgio

Jody Stecher - 6-14-2012 at 08:54 AM

Sympathetic strings affect tone color and slightly extend sustain. The relatively short duration of a single oud stroke is part of the charm of the instrument. There is a chance that the clarity of plectrum strokes will be negatively affected by sympathetics. Unless the oud is fitted with dozens of sympathetics an oud player's ability to freely move from one maqam to another would be curtailed. The pitches to which the sympathetics are tuned would be reinforced and have a more complex tone than the other pitches giving the impression that the non-reinforced pitches are lacking in tone color.

Giorgioud - 6-14-2012 at 09:10 AM

Great point Jody, and very true. And there's no way to skirt around this problem, unless, as you said, one fits dozens of sympathetics.....then it'd become a qan-oud :-D. Thanks for your intervention, much appreciated........

fernandraynaud - 6-14-2012 at 08:04 PM

They make viols, viola da gamba, and violas with sympathetic strings. There's even a special instrument they call a viola d'amore. These are all bowed instruments, so the notes can be sustained to better excite the sympathetic strings. You can hear one here, it has a nice fat timbre:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBXhGvWlYOI

These viola d'amore had a moment of popularity in the 18th century, when the narrow-necked violin family and the wide-necked viola da gamba families were fighting it out, and all sorts of interesting hybrids were tried. I was attracted to a (cello-sized) bass viola da gamba with sympathetic strings, and asked around, expecting raves, but people who had played them confided that "you know, it really doesn't make THAT much difference".

Also on a big clavichord, the passive portions of the strings (on the peg side of the bridge) resonate sympathetically, and there are a lot of them, creating a quite strong "reverb" type effect. And here again, it's not all that great. On my clavichord I usually drape a piece of felt across those strings because they muddy up the timbre too much.

So, the way I see it, sympathetic strings have been tried and generally speaking rejected because, for all the hoopla, they don't add very much. The fact that they don't show up on many plucked instruments speaks for itself.

abc123xyz - 6-18-2012 at 02:21 PM

Well personally I love the sound of sympathetic strings, and am always delighted to see them tried on new instruments.

I also think, regardless of what else is or is not accomplished, that angering traditionalists is a worthy goal all by itself. ¦·D If you're still worried about them, though, just don't call your invention an oud, and nobody should feel threatened.

It's also not likely that dozens of strings would be necessary for modulation, as not every mode used is going to have a completely unique tonal set, and any note used mainly as a passing or ornamental note only need not have a separate sympathetic. The tarafdar sitars have an octave of sympathetic strings plus anywhere from 3 to 7 extra strings for modulation. (In Indian Classical Music the tonic doesn't normally shift during a piece, but the internal arrangement of the mode may.)

There is a problem, however, which is that their addition adds extra tension to an instrument, and taking a standard oud and just adding sympathetics without making proper adjustments and adding reinforcement to it is, at best going to muffle the instrument, and at worst damage it. One really has to go back to the drawing board, and is, in effect, designing an entirely new instrument.

David

Giorgioud - 6-19-2012 at 03:31 AM

Fernand,
thanks for your intervention. I was particularly looking forward to your point of view, as I greatly appreciate your contributions. It seems to me you are very knowledgeable on a wide variety of subjects. I know I can always count on your experise. I just didn't want to call you out loud, that's all........
I confess I didn't know the viola d'amore. Yeah, gorgeous sound, why on earth is it not used more widely?

David,
"angering traditionalists is a worthy goal all by itself"....I couldn't agree more!!! Right on! But seriously, your point of view (about the discussion of the effectiveness of sympathetics)is as equally as valid, and a worthy one. I will be pondering it carefully. Also, you're dead right about the drastic alterations. My liuthier, who's an absolute expert and makes lutes, thorbe, and all sorts of Reinassance string instruments, has told me as much. Removing the soundboard and refitting it, adding extra reinforcements inside, a new bridge for sympathetics, installation of peg-blocks, reaming peg-holes, etc etc, all on the understanding that the original tone will be altered, he told me everything. The cost is quite steep too, £540 (about $840 or 670 Euro), which really is the minimum he can charge for that sort of job, as I'm a regular client.


I'll have to consider carefully, upon the light shed with all your interventions, my options. Of course, if anybody has more advice, it's warmly welcome.
Thank you all kindly, you've been super!

Jody Stecher - 6-19-2012 at 07:08 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Giorgioud  

Of course, if anybody has more advice, it's warmly welcome.


For £540 you can get one or two Kashmiri rubabs or one and a half Afghan rubabs. It's tuned in fourths, has nylon or gut playing strings, is designed to withstand the pressure of its sympathetic metal strings. You can probably try one for free. You can then explore the sympathetic string experience without a nice oud undergoing alternations that are probably irreversible. Another idea: do the alterations on a horrible oud. It can't be made worse. Maybe it'll be better with sympathetics.

Giorgioud - 6-19-2012 at 09:26 AM

.....and of course Jody, I was also looking forward to your reply, as one of the most respected and cultured members of the forum. Thanks for your intervention, I have been tickled by the idea, if it's tuned in fourths it'll be all right. It has a beautiful sound indeed, and also its offspring the sarod, although I would find uncomfortable to play sitting on the floor like they do.........

Jody Stecher - 6-19-2012 at 10:24 AM

yeah, "cultured' like yoghurt. :-)
Quote: Originally posted by Giorgioud  
.....and of course Jody, I was also looking forward to your reply, as one of the most ....cultured members of the forum. ...


mavrothis - 6-19-2012 at 11:13 AM

Too modest. I think your advice was very good. Better to try an instrument that is almost what Giorgioud wants first, then see if it is worth the effort and expense to mess with his oud.

Giorgioud - 6-20-2012 at 10:34 AM

Absolutely right Mavrothis,
(bloody hell, at the cost of repeating myself, may I say that you were another one of that restricted cabal of forum members who I wanted to hear what he thought? What's with this post?Now all I need is Spyros, Jdowning, Chris, Brian and Ararat's advice (and a few others too, but this getting to be like the Yellow Pages or something).... and then I'll be well chuffed).
Also, Jody's advice is a sound one. I have 3 ouds: a Bicicioglu and 2 Fathys, none of them suitable for "messing around". Bicigioglu's the cheapest of the three (in price and in materials), but it still has a damn fine sound which I'd loath to change......

mavrothis - 6-21-2012 at 05:09 AM

My pleasure, thanks. I've had some of my luthier friends mess with things for me in the past, and usually, I just end wasting their time and my money (tried a bouzouki with metal microtonal frets - maybe it works for some, but I just ended up having the extra frets removed).

Anyway, I think Jody's advice was perfect, and he obviously knows about a wide range of instruments.

Thanks, and good luck with your experimenting.

mavrothi

Jody Stecher - 6-21-2012 at 07:01 AM

Mavrothi, I'm curious about why the metal "extra" frets failed. My Arabic buzuq with (17-to-the octave) tied-on frets made from fishing line works fine. And microtonal soft frets on Persian tar and setar work fine. So what is it about metal frets that failed on the bouzouki?

Quote: Originally posted by mavrothis  
My pleasure, thanks. I've had some of my luthier friends mess with things for me in the past, and usually, I just end wasting their time and my money (tried a bouzouki with metal microtonal frets - maybe it works for some, but I just ended up having the extra frets removed).

Anyway, I think Jody's advice was perfect, and he obviously knows about a wide range of instruments.

Thanks, and good luck with your experimenting.

mavrothi

mavrothis - 6-21-2012 at 07:15 AM

Hi Jody,

The positioning of the microtonal frets just did not give me the intonation I desired. They were markedly Arabic to my ears, closer to quarter tones than to what I was after.

I think that the positioning was close to saz fretting, but upon reflection, I realized that saz intonation doesn't make me that happy either for what I play (listening to a great saz player is another story - I always enjoy that).

Also, I don't just want to play Ottoman or Greek folk songs on the bouzouki. Soon after I acquired it, I was booked for a bouzouki/oud gig where I would need to play Manolis Chiotis songs (pretty Western, pretty fast) and in funky keys. That led me to realize I needed a bouzouki, not a bouzouki hybrid.

You can see pictures of my bouzouki before the extra frets were taken out of it here: http://www.theodorakis.name

Once Taso gets whatever scripts off his site that are causing the warning, you should be able to check it out.

Long story short, I think that if you want to modify a bouzouki or guitar with microtonal frets, you should used tied frets for those specific tones.

:)

mavrothi

Jody Stecher - 6-21-2012 at 01:25 PM

Thanks, Mavrothi, now I understand. Instead of only 12 unmovable frets in the wrong place (for some things) you had to contend with even more wrongly placed frets that couldn't be budged. Aaargh.

Quote: Originally posted by mavrothis  
Hi Jody,

The positioning of the microtonal frets just did not give me the intonation I desired. They were markedly Arabic to my ears, closer to quarter tones than to what I was after.

I think that the positioning was close to saz fretting, but upon reflection, I realized that saz intonation doesn't make me that happy either for what I play (listening to a great saz player is another story - I always enjoy that).

Also, I don't just want to play Ottoman or Greek folk songs on the bouzouki. Soon after I acquired it, I was booked for a bouzouki/oud gig where I would need to play Manolis Chiotis songs (pretty Western, pretty fast) and in funky keys. That led me to realize I needed a bouzouki, not a bouzouki hybrid.

You can see pictures of my bouzouki before the extra frets were taken out of it here: http://www.theodorakis.name

Once Taso gets whatever scripts off his site that are causing the warning, you should be able to check it out.

Long story short, I think that if you want to modify a bouzouki or guitar with microtonal frets, you should used tied frets for those specific tones.

:)

mavrothi

connecting the threads

Jody Stecher - 6-21-2012 at 08:00 PM

http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=11783&p...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AH0u_Mh76kk

norumba - 6-23-2012 at 10:34 AM

I played sarod for many years, as well as oud (and fretless electric guitar). I had to give up the sarod as i found the sympathetics (and the fact that the sarod has no low end at all) incredibly painful for my tinnitus.

I do think sympathetics on the oud may make it lose some of its characteristic charm and color, as Jody mentioned. There's also the issue of tension and bracing. The tuning is not so much an issue -- If youre playing a lot of different raags or maqams in one evening, then just tune it chromatically -- but if you're dealing with some quarter tones in the maqam that may throw a monkey wrench in how you tune or retune the sympathetics.

That said, I'm so glad Jody posted that link to Dimitris Hiotis' latva ; if youre going to do it , structurallly thats how to approach it. I think the tone is a little twangy, but the concept is right.

ALAMI - 6-23-2012 at 01:25 PM

Giorgio check this:
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=1732

Scroll down, it was posted by Mike back in 2005

jdowning - 6-23-2012 at 04:41 PM

..... and the next step? Look what happened to the lute.

http://www.torban.org

See Chapter IIIb for images.

Be careful what you wish for oudists!

Giorgioud - 6-24-2012 at 09:42 AM

Jody, Alami,
thanks for the threads. Wow, Joseph Tawadros' ouds look really neat, especially the one with sympathetics......7 strings (although on the picture there are only 4), they look quite thick to me, I wonder what gauge they are.......

DoggerelPundit - 6-27-2012 at 09:21 PM

Giorgioud,

For a different approach, the sound of this standard but differently strung Karibyan might interest you. He used it on cut 5, the Husseini taqsim. Nicely played and powerful. Pleasing modulations too, but the clip doesn't go that far; you'll have to get the CD.

Well worth it though.

http://dantzrecords.com/DantzRec_CD71001.html

-Stephen

Giorgioud - 6-27-2012 at 10:51 PM

Hello Stephen,
thanks for the tip. Wow, lovely sound. It seems to me that it has the normal strings, but on the wound ones, the other one which normally should be tuned in unison, is an octave higher. Ingenious! It has the "springiness" of the oud with the mood of a bouzuq or a saz. Do you know, by any chance, if these strings are sold around, which gauge they are, or if they were a homemade job which entailed just picking the thinnest strings and matching them/tuning them for the right tension?