Mike's Oud Forums

New pegs for Sukar Model # 2

oudy allen - 7-7-2012 at 04:47 PM

Yesterday I received my new Sukar Model #2 which has a superb sound but the problem I'm left with are the pegs since they seem to be quite cheap. Every time I tune the oud they tend to slip very quickly. I am thinking about changing the pegs but don't know exactly what kind of pegs I should choose. There are pegs made of ebony, rosewood, hornbeam etc. To be honest, I am not sure which one of those is most suitable for my model # 2 oud since I am aware that the peg wood should suit the material the peg box is made of.

Tomorrow I will post some pictures of the peg box and the fingerboard hoping to get some advices from you guys (especially from those who own model # 2 or a similar model (model # 1))

Thanks a lot!:cool:

fernandraynaud - 7-7-2012 at 10:03 PM

Well, I've warned people about the softer wood pegs and fingerboard on specific Sukar models. These pegs are perfectly usable but you should learn to use them before you consider replacing them. There's an essential technique of pushing the peg in as you tune, and especially as you finish tuning it. It's best not to try various "peg dope" products as those REALLY make them slip.

Various suitable types of Viola and Oud Pegs can be purchased inexpensively from Dov Schmidt. But replacing pegs involves reaming the peg holes, and often shaving the pegs. That's almost $100 in tools right there. You must also be sure of the taper of the pegs, as the right reamer must be bought, and the shaver must also be the right type. If it's adjustable it has to be set correctly. It takes some skill/practice to ream/fit pegs, or you will end up with oversized holes and slipping pegs. Once the holes are reamed too much, you have to repair the pegbox, major job. Best to first learn to use the pegs that came on the oud, they generally do not slip if used correctly.

There are some videos that show it in action, but it boils down to applying inward pressure so the peg is seated all the way. With flatter taper pegs, like viola pegs, there's more risk of splitting the pegbox with humidity changes, and the fitting is more demanding. The old style (steeper taper) oud pegs are much more forgiving in this respect, you just have to "work" them.

oudy allen - 7-8-2012 at 03:45 AM

Hey fernand,

I really appreciate your help, mate. Actually, I didn't know it was that troublesome to change the pegs because I kind of thought I could just buy suitable pegs (length, width) and use them. I measured the peg holes on the peg box and they have an approximate diameter of 8.5 - 9 mm. If I buy new pegs, would I need to drill the string holes on the pegs as well?

Here I'm posting some pictures of my new oud, including the peg box. I'm kind of uncertain as to the authenticity of my Sukar since the Sukar label inside the oud has obviously been removed (you can still see the glue). The seller told me that he got this instrument from a friend of him who bought the instrument in Beirut / Lebanon. Is it common that the label is sometimes removed? As for the instrument, it looks really authentic, at least to me.

Pictures:

http://i46.tinypic.com/9qz7v6.jpg

http://i45.tinypic.com/fmt6hv.jpg

http://i45.tinypic.com/x5uq2g.jpg

http://i48.tinypic.com/2l9pkcy.jpg

http://i48.tinypic.com/2rqf0w4.jpg

Jason - 7-8-2012 at 08:11 AM

It looks like a real Sukar to me. The bridge and pickguard look exactly like the ones you see on Sukar ouds. I'd be surprised if anyone is faking Sukar instruments as they're pretty inexpensive in the Middle East to begin with.

The pegs look like the cheap rosewood pegs you see on a lot of ouds. The problem may not be the wood itself so much as the poor fitting of the pegs. Fitting pegs definitely isn't as easy as just pulling out the old ones and pushing in the new ones. It can take considerable work to make them fit and function properly.

That said, how old are the strings? I have an oud with cheap pegs that slip like crazy as new strings stretch but they eventually stabilize and hold tune decently well.

oudy allen - 7-8-2012 at 08:31 AM

Hey Jason,

As for the authencity of the oud, I was thinking the same since every detail looks Sukar-like, I was just a bit confused about the missing label inside the oud.

I really didn't know that it was that hard to change the pegs. That's why I thought I could just buy a set of new high-quality pegs and the problem would be solved. As I am a newbie to the oud, I don't want to risk damaging the instrument. Therefore I guess I'll stick to the simple rosewood pegs trying to find out how to make the best out of them.

Brian Prunka - 7-8-2012 at 10:20 AM

Those pegs look fine, they should probably just be fitted better. Is there a decent luthier in your area? Any violin repairman should be able to fit them better if that's the issue.
As fernand said, there is a technique of pushing the pegs inward as you tune, this sometimes takes a little while to get used to, and will probably solve at least 80% of the problem.

Replacing pegs requires some skill and appropriate tools, but you could learn to do if you put some effort in--it's not the most complicated procedure.

oudy allen - 7-8-2012 at 11:46 AM

Hey Brian,

yes, there is indeed a good luthier in my area. Maybe I should just drop by there and let him have a look at the pegs. What do you guys think about the instrument? What about the missing label inside the oud?

fernandraynaud - 7-8-2012 at 02:19 PM

Arabic instruments routinely sells Sukars without the labels. They say the import of Syrian goods is banned in some countries (like Israel). So why don't they send the labels under separate cover, the way we do with Cuban cigars in the USA? But back to your late night anxieties. Reach inside up against the head block. If there's a butterfly nut in there, you're getting warm, sounds more like a genuine Sukar. If you loosen the nut and the action rises, you're home. GENUINE ENOUGH! If the neck falls off, an alarm sounds, and armed masked men come down your chimney, you have a forgery, and should promptly hide it.

Brian's right, it can be learned, but each peg has to be fitted to its own hole, it's never as simple as popping them in from the Express Mail envelope. The proof is in the fact that someone has already replaced the pegs. These are walnut or stained otherwood pegs that I have never seen on a Sukar. Just see if you can't make your pegs work by applying The push-in Maneuvre. New strings must stretch too. If this is your first oud you will come to understand why old style friction pegs are charmingly "retro". Having a luthier look them over in case maybe someone put slippery peg dope on them is a good idea.

Also that oud looks like it's perhaps strung FF AA DD gg cc ff. Or maybe CC FF AA dd gg cc. Maybe you should get a new standard string set C FF AA DD gg cc, and that's a good time to take out each peg (do not mix them up!) and wipe it off well, make sure it's not slipping in the hole. If it is, clean it very well, and if necessary use just a touch of chalk to provide stiction.

oudy allen - 7-9-2012 at 04:30 AM

The strings were strung on the wrong pegs initially. I've changed the strings and tuned the instrument C GG AA DD gg cc and also used some peg dope for the pegs to hold. Now I think, after the strings have stretched sufficiently, the pegs should not slip that much anymore. Let's hope the best.

By the way, what do you think about the orange Pyramid set? Have you made good experience with those strings? Would you recommend other strings for Sukar ouds?

Brian Prunka - 7-9-2012 at 05:20 AM

I like the Pyramid Orange label. It's not the fanciest set, but a good set that works well on a lot of ouds and is pretty middle-of-the-road in terms of tone and tension. It's definitely a good starting point on a Sukar.

Personally, I always use Pyramid Historical strings (aka "lute strings"), but at $58/set, they are one of the most expensive options. I don't think the change in sound is that important unless you are performing or recording. On my ouds that I don't perform on I will often use the Pyramid 650 set or MusiCaravan's Arabic set.


oudy allen - 7-9-2012 at 11:37 AM

Well, as I am neither performing or recording yet, I'll stick to the Pyramid 650 set for now. $58 are definitely too much for my purposes. I was just wondering whether other sets such as those of Aquila or D'Addario, for example, were good alternatives to the Pyramid 650 set. At the end of the day, I guess I'll have to try them in order to make up my mind which one I prefer.

fernandraynaud - 7-9-2012 at 02:30 PM

I hope you used just a touch of the peg dope. I have had DISMAL slipping with peg dope, it's very hard not to use too much. If you find you cannot control slipping, pull each peg out bit and sprinkle a little chalk dust where it will be contacting the pegbox wall.

Personally, having tried several types, I favor the Daniel Mari sets as they are inexpensive (under $10 a set), and rather light. But I also use PVF fish leader for a brighter sound on the plain strings, and D'Addario classical guitar singles as needed, say for the bass, or for specific tunings, or for an unwound third on some ouds. The standard D'Addario oud set uses the same type strings as their classical guitar sets, the set happens to be a bit heavier than the Daniel Mari, and (logically enough) the basses have a brighter sound. It's not magic, there are only so many ways to make a string. It pretty much just comes down to gauges and (secondarily) the ratio of metal to nylon filament core, where the D'Addarios have thicker windings, and the Maris use a little less metal on any given gauge. It's important to study the gauges used in different sets, and to get familiar with Arto's string tension calculator.

http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/Calcs/wwwscalc.html

http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/NewScalc/

Brian Prunka - 7-9-2012 at 03:14 PM

There is actually a wide range of variation among metal wound strings. The gauge is just one factor; the particular alloys used, the size of the windings, the size and composition of the core all have a big impact on stiffness and tension.
Mari's are a little less stiff than comparable gauge D'addario, but D'addario has superior quality plain nylon strings.

The Mari sets I have are slightly heavier in the nylons than the standard D'addario set (.025 and .029 vs .022 and .028), which balances better for Arabic tuning. A lot of people buy the Mari sets and replace the nylons with something else (the wounds are nice); they are so inexpensive (I sell them as low as $7.75/set) that it is still a good deal even just for the wound strings.
Mari's shop is near me, he's a nice old guy--I always go pick up the strings from him in person.

Aquila work well on some ouds, and suit some people's preferences (to me they are too high in tension), but I think Pyramid a a more neutral starting point.

MusiCaravan Arabic is an under-appreciated option, it has the best quality plain nylon of any I have tried. The wounds are nice as well. It is slightly lighter than the Pyramid 650 set.

fernandraynaud - 7-9-2012 at 04:35 PM

Yes, the Maris also constitute a good starting point set. Then to explore one can either replace the wound D with a couple 0.039" to 0.041" guitar G nylons (2.5-2.7kg tension at 600mm) for that Old School sound, or swap both treble courses out for PVF trebles, for a brighter balanced sound. The Mari sets use a 0.039" up to 0.041" bass string, "depending". A 0.043" wound classical guitar E string gives a stronger bass if preferred. With Daniel Maris make sure you get the "long" set, the other is a hair too short for many ouds.

Brian, you offer a wonderful wide-range primo service for players who want the convenience of ready-made sets. I'm at the other end of the spectrum. Not out to undermine yours. Both approaches are worth knowing about.


ameer - 7-9-2012 at 05:46 PM

Depending on the oud, you might try both of Fernand's suggestions together: a nylon third with PVF for the first and second. On some ouds the contrast is too great, but on some smaller ouds it balances out nicely.

fernandraynaud - 7-9-2012 at 10:35 PM

And there's a fatter PVF Premier (dual layer) Leader suitable for the 3rd D course too. So-called 80 lb. "80 FP 25 0.780 mm 0.031 in." works out to about 2.7kg on the dd course at 600 mm scale. More expensive than the cc and gg course, about $30 for 25 meters. I haven't tried it yet, but it could be very interesting because it won't sound as dull as nylon, so the contrast with both the top PVF courses and the wound AA strings should be minimized. Their Red Label monofilament PVF Leader comes in a "60 RL 25 .769 mm .030 in." that should give 2.6 kg on dd at 600mm scale. The Red Label does not have the outer softer layer, so it should be more metallic sounding, closer to a wound string, and it's cheaper, $20 for 25 meters.

There's also a "20 FP 25 .370 mm .015 in." Premier Leader PVF that should work for an ff course, maybe a little stiff at 3.4kg on 600mm scale. I don't normally tune high ff, so I haven't tried it yet. There are other gauges in the Blue Label (cheaper dual layer) and the Red Label (monofilament). Lots of choices. All these "fish lines" are used by a lot of picky musicians on various instruments, even the Japanese engineers at Seaguar knew about it.

@Ameer, I recall you liked nylon for the ff, but what was the final verdict on the ff course for the 0.015" Premier PVF? Too heavy?

ameer - 7-10-2012 at 03:24 AM

I haven't used an ff course in years. I think you could be confusing me with someone else? I'm going to take a look at your suggestions for a PVF dd course though. Hopefully one of them doesn't sound so honky.

oudy allen - 7-10-2012 at 10:51 AM

Thank you very much guys. You've helped me out. So I'm going to bear all your suggestions and advices in mind. Hopefully everything will work out fine.

Brian Prunka - 7-14-2012 at 02:32 PM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud  


Brian, you offer a wonderful wide-range primo service for players who want the convenience of ready-made sets. I'm at the other end of the spectrum. Not out to undermine yours. Both approaches are worth knowing about.




Thanks, Fernand, but I didn't think you were. I'm glad you think I offer "primo" service, but over 80% of my customers are buying standard sets, and helping people assemble custom sets is a service I offer for free. I appreciate that you have a DIY, experimental approach, and I don't discount your opinions generally though I may feel compelled to offer another viewpoint from time to time.

I was just concerned that your statement:
Quote:
It's not magic, there are only so many ways to make a string. It pretty much just comes down to gauges and (secondarily) the ratio of metal to nylon filament core, where the D'Addarios have thicker windings, and the Maris use a little less metal on any given gauge.


would lead some people to the false conclusion that string gauge is a good comparator for wound strings. It can be helpful, but there are huge differences in the wound strings from different makers.

Since I have access to the manufacturer's tension data from some makers, I have done calculations first interpolating tension for a given gauge (using a few other known gauges/tensions), and comparing the result to the actual tension. Sometimes it's pretty close, but quite often it is not. Even from the same manufacturer, techniques and materials vary for different gauges of metal strings (typically the very thin and very thick gauges require different techniques than the middle range).

So while diameter is helpful, it is not very accurate due to the wide variation among wound strings.

fernandraynaud - 7-14-2012 at 04:13 PM

Some day we'll have a good method for actually measuring tension "in situ" on the oud. And maybe someone will develop a technique for calculating tensions on wound strings from some basic measurement (say diameter of winding wire, diameter of resulting wound string, etc etc). For now we just gotta stumble around ;-)