Mike's Oud Forums

Learn to play oud - In Morocco, Jordan or Turkey?

van_fnord - 7-10-2012 at 08:40 PM

Hello dear Oud-Fans! :bowdown:

I am a guitar player from Switzerland and my big wish is to buy an oud and learn how to play it.
For this purpose (and also to travel, couchsurf, meet people, learn about the culture and the country...) I would like to visit one country this whole August, now the question is which one... I am thinking about :

- Morocco (Casablanca, Marrakech or Rabat)
- Jordan (Amman)
- Turkey (Ankara or Istanbul)

Are there some differences in oud-styles or ways of playing the oud between these countries?

What country and which city would you recommend?
I have seen already some shop and teacher recommendations for these cities, but maybe you have special ones?

Thanks for your help!
Van Fnord

dubai244 - 7-11-2012 at 02:57 AM

Hi,

For torism purpose, I would recommand the three countires, i mean, each one has special tast and culture. I had visited the three countires and i recommand to start with Morocco.
But for oud learninng, wihtout any doubt, i highly recommand Mr.Yurdal Tokcan in istanbul. he is one of the greatest oud players in oud world. Every year, he do a work shop for different level in learning oud and so many people around the world going there to learn oud and from what I saw, he is very professional and the work shop is very orginaized. You can check some his work shops and music he produce through youtube and his personal website.

The reason i recommand turkey, in my opinion, because once you learn the turkish style, it would be very easy to learn the arabic style. Any way, the differences are minor between the two styles

Thanks

ameer - 7-11-2012 at 07:44 AM

There are differences in the styles of playing and especially in the approach to theory. Give us some players who's style you like and we can put you on the best track.

van_fnord - 7-11-2012 at 08:43 AM

Hey thanks for your replies!

My favorite style is the palestinian way to play the oud... like Le Trio Joubran, but I think Palestine isn't really safe for travelling around the country. That's why I've chosen these three countries...

Another great oud-player is Dhafer Youssef, but Tunisia ist just too touristic :D don't like that...

Muchas gracias!

Giorgioud - 7-11-2012 at 09:48 AM

Hi Van,
welcome to the forum! Dubai's advice is a good one, and Ameer too has a sound tip. The tunisian style is funky and earthy. Yeah, you're right, Tunisia is tourist-y, but that concerns mainly the beaches. I doubt you'll find many tourists in the medina or in the circle of musicians where a possible teacher will move.
I am going to take lessons from this guy (who's based in Tunis) in October, a professor a L'Institute Superieur de la Musique in Tunis and a member of the Exams Commitee. http://youtu.be/TROVbG06xFY and also http://youtu.be/L1V7F0a7vIo Very good, isn't he? You might want to have a chat with him. Tunisia is quite close and also very cheap. Some hotels close to the medina cost 10 Euros per night with breakfast. You could do worst than that. Anyway, it's nice to have a wide range of options to choose from. If you're interested I can pass you his e-mail.
Regards

travel

reminore - 7-11-2012 at 05:56 PM

personally, i play the ottoman/greek/turkish style of oud playing-but have loved arabic music for many years...

i second dubai's recommendation of yurdal tokcan - you couldn't find a better teacher...but i think you need to be a bit clearer and perhaps get a bit more experience under your belt before you take lessons from him...

btw, travelling in palestine may be an adventure - but is completely safe for a foreigner...and your visit would be highly appreciated by people there...you would probably be treated more specially there than anywhere else in the m.e.!

van_fnord - 7-12-2012 at 08:33 AM

Hi at all, and many thanks!

@giogioud: wow, Achref Chargui is a really nice oud player! I know the sound of Anouar Brahem - who is from Tunisia too - and I really like that slow and earthy sound... really deep and full of emotions! But I really sympathize more with other countries than tunisia... You know something about the moroccan or jordanian style? Is it similar?

@reminore+dubai244: Yurdal Tokcan seems amazing. You could be right that maybe he is "too good" for my first attempts with the oud (although I play electric and flamenco guitar since many years and I know I will take a lot of comprehension for this instrument with me). But now I know more about the turkish style... thank you!
Oh and about travelling in palestine... Of course it has to be an unforgettable adventure! But personally too much adventure for me at the moment :)

Somebody knows that is the tuning of Le Trio Joubran?
Is that the typical tuning of Palestine? Or where can I find these kind of sound a teachers?

Also, the kind of oud's that I'm searching is something like this or that. Can I find these type of ouds in all of these countries?
(And what is the 12th tuning peg for? for replacement?)

Cheers.
Van Fnord.

John Erlich - 7-12-2012 at 09:28 AM

Hi Van Fnord,

If your favorite oud style is Palestinian, why don't you go ahead and contact the Palestinian oud players in the West Bank and Arab/Palestinian parts of Israel? The Joubran family is from Nazareth.

You should email West Bank Palestinian Samer Totah (http://www.samertotah.com/), who lives in Ramallah, and Palestinian-Israeli Taiseer Elias (http://www.jamd.ac.il/en/content/prof-taiseer-elias) and ask them about whether they teach, know other accomplished players who teach, and the possibilities for short-term lessons. You can also ask them about the issue of safety generally and of travel between the West Bank and Israel. I have communicated via email with both of them and have met Taiseer. They are both excellent musicians and are very personable. Both speak some English.

Kamil Shajrawi (http://www.kamilshajrawi.com) is another oud player and teacher who is another Nazarene and a colleague of Taiseer's. (No idea what languages he speaks other than Arabic and Hebrew.)

There may also be some possibiities for oud study within insitutions, both in Palestine (e.g. Jerusalem Center for Arabic Music - mkurd@yahoo.com) and Israel (e.g., The Center for Middle Eastern Classical Music [in Jerusalem] http://www.musicenter.org.il/english.asp). You can contact them and ask.

Good luck!

Salaam/Shalom,
"Udi" John

Jody Stecher - 7-12-2012 at 10:04 AM

Anouar Brahem's music and sound may be more personal than local. 12 pegs are for F tuning where the bass course is double.
Quote: Originally posted by van_fnord  
Hi at all, and many thanks!

I know the sound of Anouar Brahem - who is from Tunisia too - and I really like that slow and earthy sound... really deep and full of emotions!
(And what is the 12th tuning peg for? for replacement?)

Cheers.
Van Fnord.

Giorgioud - 7-12-2012 at 10:08 AM

Van,
I know very little about Jordanian oudism. I confess I haven't studied it in-depth. But, as Jordan was, alongside Syria, part of the Ottoman Empire until relatively recently (1918), I am prone to think that the two traditions might be similar. I expect to be corrected on this fine point by people who know more than me on the subject.
Moroccan oudism, though, it's quite different. Morocco had a rich tapestry of people living therein, who all gave their contribution to create something quite unique. The Berber tradition, the Arabic, the Andalusian, the Spanish, the Turkish (it was part of the Ottoman empire until the 1830s), la chansonne francaise (alas, the French were there until the 1960s) and probabily the most important, the Judeo-Sephardic tradition. One who, in my opinion, encapsulates all this is Nasser Houari http://youtu.be/MsrPBNmh5Qk and http://youtu.be/XmlzEEKbfXU who's great. He plays also shards of Blues in his improvisations, quite phenomenal. Said Chraibi too is a good example http://youtu.be/u7-yEZrP_WQ
You can contact Nasser Houari on http://www.facebook.com/nasser.houari or http://perso.menara.ma/cledut/
Said Chraibi doesn't seem to have a Facebook page, so you'll have to contact him on his site http://www.saidchraibi.com/
They might be able to give lessons, I am sure actually that's their main income. Just be aware that they might be expensive, as they're well known on the scene..........

John Erlich - 7-12-2012 at 11:17 AM

Morocco was not part of the Ottoman Empire...which is part of what makes its culture distinctive. I second the suggestion to contact Nasser Houari.

Peace out,
"Udi" John

Ottoman Empire Map Greatest Extent.jpg - 56kB

Khalid_Salé - 7-12-2012 at 11:34 AM

Omar Metioui from Tangiers is a player very much in the Moroccan tradition (he's the most 'Maghrebi' sounding player I've heard; the rest sound more influenced by Middle Eastern players), but I'm afraid I've no idea if he teaches or how to contact him. (I just live here...)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5xG4CJKmL0

John Erlich - 7-12-2012 at 01:19 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Khalid_Salé  
Omar Metioui from Tangiers is a player very much in the Moroccan tradition (he's the most 'Maghrebi' sounding player I've heard; the rest sound more influenced by Middle Eastern players), but I'm afraid I've no idea if he teaches or how to contact him. (I just live here...)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5xG4CJKmL0

Omar Metioui is an excellent oud player, and I agree with you about his style being more Moroccan/Maghrebi, less influenced by Eastern styles (especially compared to Nasser Houari, who I think is very Egyptian-influenced). And the fact that you live in Morocco yourself and don't know how to contact him supports what I've long believed: Omar Metioui is probably a hermit. :)

Giorgioud - 7-12-2012 at 01:38 PM

Quote: Originally posted by John Erlich  
Morocco was not part of the Ottoman Empire...which is part of what makes its culture distinctive. I second the suggestion to contact Nasser Houari.

Peace out,
"Udi" John


Dear John,
thanks for pointing that out. You're right, Morocco was never a stable pert of the Ottoman empire. However, there were short inclusions of parts of Morocco either in the empire or as a vassal tributaries. I quote from dear old Wilikipedia:
Ottoman occupation of Tlemcen (1517)

The Ottomans became very powerful with the Fall of Tlemcen (1517) and the Capture of Algiers (1516) and again the definitive Capture of Algiers (1529), progressively getting closer to the Moroccan zone of influence. After the 1517 fall of Tlemcen, the Sultan of Tlemcen had already fled to Fez in Morocco to find refuge.[2]

At the same time, the Spanish had been establishing numerous bases in Northern Africa, since 1496: Melilla (1496), Mers-el-Kebir (1505), Oran (1509), Bougie (1510), Tripoli (1510), then Algiers, Shershell, Dellys and Tenes.[3]

The Ottomans had been fighting as the enemies of Catholic Spain in North Africa. At the time the Saadian dynasty was emerging in southern Morocco, which had been successful in repelling the Portuguese from southern Morocco, particularly from Agadir in 1541. The Saadians desired to topple the Moroccan dynasty of the Wattasids in northern Morocco, and unify Morocco under one rule.[4]

[edit] Ottoman occupation of Tlemcen (1545)

The Moroccans and Ottomans started to interact closely from around 1545.[4] In June 1545, Hasan Pasha, son of Hayreddin Barbarossa and ruler of the Regency of Algiers, occupied the city of Tlemcen, where he set a Turkish garrison, and put pro-Ottoman Sultan Muhammad on the throne.[4] Tlemcen being a city with strong links with Fez, the Moroccan capital, Hasan Pasha hoped to establish an alliance with the Wattasids against the Spanish.[4] The Wattasids in turn hoped to obtain Ottoman military support against their enemies.[4]

The Saadians were the enemies of the Wattasids, but also considered the Ottomans with disdain: religiously, the Saadians were considered descendants of the Prophet, being Sherifians, whether the Ottomans were only recent converts in comparison.[4]

[edit] Wattasid alliance with the Ottomans

Things came to a head in 1545, when the Wattassid ruler of northern Morocco Sultan Ahmad was taken prisoner by his southern rivals the sharifian Sadiyans. His successor, Ali Abu Hassun, regent for Ahmad's young son Nasir al-Qasiri, decided to pledge allegiance to the Ottomans in order to obtain their support.[4] At the same time, the Ottoman started to exert direct influence in Tlemcen from 1545, where they ousted Mansur bin Ghani, the chief of the Banu Rashid, and placed Sultan Muhammad on the Tlemcen throne instead.[4]

Mansur bin Ghani went to Spain with Count Alcaudete, the Governor of Oran, to obtain military support for a campaign against the Ottomans. In 1547, Spain mounted an expedition against Ottoman Mostaganem, and failed, but in the meantime Mansur captured Tlemcen from the Ottomans and put his brother Ahmad in place as ruler. Following the Spanish defeat, the Ottomans reconquered the area, and again put Sultan Mohammad on the throne of Tlemcen.[4]

In Morocco, the Ottomans were unable to intervene when the Saadians conquered Fez in 1549, and ousted pro-Ottoman regent Ali Abu Hassun. Ali Abu Hassun was nevertheless offered asylum in Algiers.[4]


and also


Ottoman capture of Fez (1554)

In 1552 Suleiman the Magnificent attempted a diplomatic rapprochement with the Saadians, putting the blame on Hasan Pasha for the conflict, and removing him from his rule in Algiers.[4] He was replaced by Salah Rais, who nevertheless marched on Fez and occupied the city in early 1554, when the Moroccan ruler Mohammed ash-Sheikh rejected cooperation with the Ottomans. He put Ali Abu-Hassun in place as Sultan of Fez, supported by Janissaries.[5] In September 1554 however, Mohammed ash-Sheikh managed to recapture Fez, and started negotiations with Spain to oust the Ottomans.[4]

Hasan Pasha was again named beylerbey of Algiers in June 1557, in order to continue the fight against the Moroccan ruler, who had formed an alliance with the Spanish against the Ottomans.[5] He had Mohammed ash-Sheikh assassinated in October 1557.[5]



Although it must be said that all these facts happened in a short period of time, the 16th century. After that Morocco was never formally part of the Ottoman Empire. So you're right there John. Thanks for the correction. Otherwise I might have still kept thinking that Morocco followed the destiny of Algeria, Lybia and Egypt!
But nevertheless I think it was pretty much influenced culturally by it: the mix of cultures which makes Morocco so unique happened in other parts of the Empire with the local inhabitants, immigrants from all corners (even slaves were permitted to rise within the ranks, righ to Pasha), Turks and the great levelling influence of the Sephardi Jews.
It's great to have these discourses which are removed from strictly music (but part of it). I am discovering that many of the folks on the forum are a very cultured bunch......

John Erlich - 7-12-2012 at 03:29 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Giorgioud  
I am discovering that many of the folks on the forum are a very cultured bunch......


Hi Giorgi,

I'll take that as a very kind and generous compliment and ask in return only that you remember me the next time you overhear a countryman of yours deriding us Yanks as a "...bunch of gits." :wavey:

Giorgioud - 7-13-2012 at 06:30 AM

Ha, no problem John, it was a compliment all right! And when you talk about "my countrymen" you mean the Italians, don't you? I was born and bred in Rome! Lived there right until when I was 19! But I've been living in Britain for 23 years now, and I'm quite sick of the country and its countrymen. I'd like to go to North Africa, where, as my friend who lived and made records there said, "people are still human beings.....for another 10 years".......
And the "bunch of gits"......they don't know many cool Americans I'm afraid, they need to be educated to the fact that the US of A is not inhabited totally by George Bush clones.....unfortunately it's the Bush clones who shout the loudest.......and the cool Americans, because of their nature, cannot raise their cultured voice against the shouting.......but many of us know the truth man, don't worry.....I know you're sick of your government just as we are with ours....and sorry if for once, a tiny bit of politics enters this otherwise pristine forum....

John Erlich - 7-13-2012 at 08:55 AM

Buongiorno, Giorgi,

You are not the first UK resident and/or citizen of Italian birth or ancestry that I've encountered. Interestingly, I have not found southern Italians nor Sicilians (haven't yet made it to northern Italy) to be very anti-American--I imagine feel strong ties to the USA, where there are about 18,000,000 people of Italian ancestry, of which about 80% are southern Italian or Sicilian. Interestingly enough, although there are a smattering of very notable exceptions (e.g., Congresswoman Nancy Pelosi from my fair state), most prominent Italian-Americans invovled with US poltics are on the Right.

A little closer to this Forum's subject...

Have you ever visited Mazzara del Vallo in Sicily? According to my Imam acquaintance in Rome, it's the most Arab/Muslim city in Italy. I dragged my poor pregnant wife there in a minor detour during a 2004 Sicily trip in hopes of a small infusion of North African culture (and shopping!), only to find that the N. African shops were closed for afternoon siesta. (Ever since, I've had frequent nightmares about travelling to oud shops and M.E. music strores only to find them closed for siesta!) :(

Giorgioud - 7-13-2012 at 10:56 AM

Buongiorno a te John,
yeah, lots of Italian-American in the States....I have myself some distant relatives over there.......
I have been to Sicily countless times but I have never been to Mazara del Vallo. To be honest with you the whole of Sicily is quite Arab-isized. First, the immigration, and Sicily is always the first port of call, and, the climate and the architecture resembling North Africa so much, many of our brothers and sisters try to settle there rather than embarking in the whole trek towards the big messy city of Rome, or the teutonic-like Milano. And many of them succed. More power to them!
But Sicily was under the Arab Umayyads for about 200 years, and their level of civilisation was the best enjoyed in Europe. The capital of Palermo was without a doubt one of the most splendid in the world. Then Sicily passed to the Normans, but the sub-strata of Arabs and Arab descendants remained, and when it eventually passed to the German Hohenstaufen, there was a brilliant mix which was absolutely unique, a sort of Byzanthine-Arab-Norman-German cauldron which produced great art and great literature (the birth of Italian literature happened there in those conditions).
Frederick the 2nd Hohenstaufen loved the Muslims. He build a whole city for them in Apulia, where it still stands today. That city is Lucera, close to Foggia where my family both from mother and father side comes from. Unfortunately the powers that came after the Hohenstaufen (notably of Spanish and French persuation) were vehemently anti-Muslim and made damn sure they left. A tragic loss for southern Italy, which without them proceeded to be sucked dry and reach a state of backwardness which in a certain sesnse still influences the character of its people.
So John, I think you should go to Lucera if you want to explore the Muslim Italy. Of course, very little remain of their presence. But you can wander its street and imagine that a few century ago it was completely Muslim. In Sicily too, the Arabs made their mark, of course. I mean, just look at the people and the athmosphere!
Utterly fascinating!

John Erlich - 7-13-2012 at 11:27 AM

When I entered the Cathedral in Palermo, I immediately noticed the Arabic inscription one of the columns, just inside:

Arabic Inscription Photo from Palermo Cathedral Column.jpg - 54kB

ibn sina - 7-16-2012 at 06:37 AM

That inscription is so cool! I've been to Malta but not Sicily. It's nice to see the widespread cultural influence of Islamic art.
Also I took two lessons with Nasser Houari last Christmas. He is an excellent teacher and will take your interest seriously.
My assmption would be that the Joubrani brothers had classic instrution and then worked out their own style. As others pointed out, their sound is very dependent on three ouds playing at once.
Good luck!

van_fnord - 7-16-2012 at 05:02 PM

Hey there, this ended as an historical and political discussion... Thanks to this I startet to do a better research (and read the FAQ thread again!) and now I know, that I really prefer to study the arabic style. So there is still the question if Casablanca or Amman.
Both cities and countries seem to be amazingly beautiful, but the main aim is to know where it is better to learn to play the oud... and also to get one.

I found some information about moroccan oud teachers in this forum, but not that much about jordanian oud teachers. In one threat somebody also said, that there are no more ouds in Amman! That kinda scared me... But nevertheless I found some teachers:

Oud Teachers in Amman, Jordan:
http://radaydehmusic.com
http://tareqjundi.com

(Now I am waiting for a reply of these teachers. And if else, Casablanca will be my destiny)
Is it crazy to travel in summer to the desert?!?
Quote: Originally posted by John Erlich  
If your favorite oud style is Palestinian, why don't you go ahead and contact the Palestinian oud players in the West Bank and Arab/Palestinian parts of Israel? The Joubran family is from Nazareth.

Good luck!

Salaam/Shalom,
"Udi" John

@John Erlich:
Hey Udi/John! I don't know if the media and our government here is just pushing an inmense paranoia, but they tell that it is not safe to travel to Palestine... Who knows, who knows!
Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher  
Anouar Brahem's music and sound may be more personal than local. 12 pegs are for F tuning where the bass course is double.

@Jody Stecher:
I appreciate your help!
Quote: Originally posted by ibn sina  
Also I took two lessons with Nasser Houari last Christmas. He is an excellent teacher and will take your interest seriously.
My assmption would be that the Joubrani brothers had classic instrution and then worked out their own style. As others pointed out, their sound is very dependent on three ouds playing at once.
Good luck!

@ibn sina:
Wasn't the lessons with Nasser Houari extremenly expensive?
And yes, you might be right... Le Trio Joubran seem to have created their own style!


Ahoy!
Van Fnord.

John Erlich - 7-17-2012 at 01:16 PM

Hi Van Fnord,

You wrote: "I don't know if the media and our government here is just pushing an inmense paranoia, but they tell that it is not safe to travel to Palestine... " That's why I suggested you contact Taiseer and Samer and ASK THEM. Also, you can ask Iraqi-Jewish-Israeli oudist Yair Dalal, who I'm sure would be happy to share his thoughts on the subject: http://www.yairdalal.com/ (Yair helped me a lot with basic technique early in my oud-playing "career.")

Salaam/Shalom, etc.,
"Udi" John

van_fnord - 7-18-2012 at 01:52 PM

Quote: Originally posted by John Erlich  
Hi Van Fnord,

You wrote: "I don't know if the media and our government here is just pushing an inmense paranoia, but they tell that it is not safe to travel to Palestine... " That's why I suggested you contact Taiseer and Samer and ASK THEM. Also, you can ask Iraqi-Jewish-Israeli oudist Yair Dalal, who I'm sure would be happy to share his thoughts on the subject: http://www.yairdalal.com/ (Yair helped me a lot with basic technique early in my oud-playing "career.")

Salaam/Shalom, etc.,
"Udi" John


Yeah many thanks for your input relating travelling to palestine! This time my plans are at short notice (I'm going in two weeks!) and I already booked for Jordan, where I found a teacher in Amman!
So next time maaaybe Palestine?! :applause:

John Erlich - 7-18-2012 at 09:34 PM

Quote: Originally posted by van_fnord  
Quote: Originally posted by John Erlich  
Hi Van Fnord,

You wrote: "I don't know if the media and our government here is just pushing an inmense paranoia, but they tell that it is not safe to travel to Palestine... " That's why I suggested you contact Taiseer and Samer and ASK THEM. Also, you can ask Iraqi-Jewish-Israeli oudist Yair Dalal, who I'm sure would be happy to share his thoughts on the subject: http://www.yairdalal.com/ (Yair helped me a lot with basic technique early in my oud-playing "career.")

Salaam/Shalom, etc.,
"Udi" John


Yeah many thanks for your input relating travelling to palestine! This time my plans are at short notice (I'm going in two weeks!) and I already booked for Jordan, where I found a teacher in Amman!
So next time maaaybe Palestine?! :applause:


Bon voyage...wherever your travels lead!

Ararat66 - 7-19-2012 at 12:00 AM

Van

You must check out Nizar Rohana. He's a fabulous player and great teacher - he'll tune your ears for sure !!!

Here's his website

http://nizarrohana.com/

He lives between the Netherlands and Palestine and he's been coming over to here (UK) each year to teach a number of us UK udis - try to youtube him.

Have a great journey

Leon

Giorgioud - 7-19-2012 at 02:35 AM

Leon,
when does he usually come to the UK to teach, and do you know how long his seminars last and how much are they? He's a great oudists, I'd be interested to attend.


John,
that Arabic inscription in the Palermo cathedral blew my mind! I am actually astonished that it remained there, untouched by the ecclesiastical authorities and un-defaced by the catholic vulgus, for more than 1000 years! I wonder why, since any vestige of Islamic presence was removed, sometimes taking great pains in order to do so (the city of Lucera, for example, an Islamic enclave in the middle of a Catholic territory, was raized to the ground and the inhabitants deported), thouroughly and completely......much to Italian and European knowledge's chagrin.....