Mike's Oud Forums

Possible Source of New Gut String

Jody Stecher - 3-25-2014 at 10:30 AM

My friend, luthier Paul Hostetter received an email message today from Rim Benzouine who is apparently making gut strings by hand and is looking for customers. The message has Moroccan references and the email address is French:
rim_essaouira@hotmail.fr

here is the message that was received:

hello,
Because of your long experience with the musical instruments
( wooden stringed instruments) I want of you the names some of the artisans luthier so that I deal with them.
I'm working to make the cords intestine manually, with the traditional method , I'm from Morocco. please answer me in the nearest time...
Thank you

Brian Prunka - 3-25-2014 at 10:45 AM

Interesting. Most oud players are hesitant to even pay the prices of regular Pyramid lute strings, and gut strings are astronomically more expensive than those.

If this person was able to produce decent gut strings less expensively it might be of interest to some. I'll send him a note.

alim - 3-25-2014 at 11:45 AM

From the name rim_... it's a she.... :)

Ali-

ilnokaly - 3-25-2014 at 01:04 PM

well thats good news ! im very excited about that !

oudmood - 3-25-2014 at 06:01 PM

I can't imagine the strings are worth slaughtering the animal, with who knows what humane standards they have (or dont have) in Morocco.
Very morbid and unnecessary

Jody Stecher - 3-25-2014 at 07:02 PM

Quote: Originally posted by oudmood  
I can't imagine the strings are worth slaughtering the animal, with who knows what humane standards they have (or dont have) in Morocco.
Very morbid and unnecessary


I see your point but I have never heard of slaughtering an animal solely for the purpose of harvesting its guts for music string. I don't see the advantage of discarding the innards of an animal that has already been slaughtered for food, when the alternative is putting them to use. Morocco is a not a country of vegetarians and especially France is not.

You should know that some ouds and other wooden string instruments are held together with hide glue. Animal bone is used in inlay and in making nuts and saddles and other small instrument components. Drum heads are made from animal skins. Given how much time and effort goes into raising and maintaining livestock, I would be very shocked and surprised to learn that at any time in history, in any place in the world, animals were birthed, fed, doctored, pastured, sheltered, herded, protected from predators and thieves, and then killed for the purpose of making music string. I'm pretty sure it's always been a secondary thing that can be done with the less delicious parts of animals that have already been killed. I'll leave it to someone else to reveal what the soundboard of the Persian tar is made of or what each qanun bridge rests upon.

Jaffa Road - 3-25-2014 at 08:42 PM

How do I click " like" on what Jody said, :)
Still I can't imagine how it would be worth the expense or trouble.

Keep in mind that gut is extremely sensitive to changes in humidity etc, tuning stability would be an issue, I think synthetic strings are a technological advance.

All that said I would be VERY interested in trying an oud (maybe even one of mine) with real gut strings

majnuunNavid - 3-25-2014 at 09:09 PM

To my knowledge the fine membrane of a Persian Tar is made from baby lamb skin.

Microber - 3-25-2014 at 10:58 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher  

You should know that some ouds and other wooden string instruments are held together with hide glue...

By the way what is hide glue made of ?

I also agree with you Jody.
I think that in many traditional way of life, when slaughtering an animal, EVERYTHING was used. Meat of course. And also skin, bones, fur, guts...
When I was a young boy I remember we went to the butcher to get five little bones to play a game (I don't know the english name. I have found 'knucklebones' or 'astragaloi').


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Jody Stecher - 3-26-2014 at 06:55 AM

From animals. The skin, bones, connective tissue are boiled and treated. The horse is the animal associated with glue but other animals are used. Hide glue has the advantage of being reversible.

Quote: Originally posted by Microber  
Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher  

You should know that some ouds and other wooden string instruments are held together with hide glue...

By the way what is hide glue made of ?


RonPeL - 3-26-2014 at 09:15 AM

And, FYI, qanun bridges rest on ... peau de poisson - fish SKIN!

Is that why there's so many scales out of a qanun... ;)

alim - 3-26-2014 at 09:43 AM

Quote: Originally posted by oudmood  
I can't imagine the strings are worth slaughtering the animal, with who knows what humane standards they have (or dont have) in Morocco.
Very morbid and unnecessary


I know that animals are slaughtered humanely in Morocco.

Ali- (from Morocco)

PS. Somehow slaughter and humane don't go well in the same sentence...

Jody Stecher - 3-26-2014 at 09:44 AM

Quote: Originally posted by RonPeL  
And, FYI, qanun bridges rest on ... peau de poisson - fish SKIN!

Is that why there's so many scales out of a qanun... ;)


Yes, that is why!

As for the tar heads, long ago I was told that the preferred material was from the innards of an unborn lamb. (I have heard lungs, stomach, and other parts mentioned). Again, I think it is unlikely that a pregnant ewe would be slaughtered for the ultra thin membrane of its baby's inner parts. Cruel of course but also foolish and wasteful. But gosh, if a sheep miscarries, isn't it better to make use — especially musical use — of its body parts than to not? There would still be plenty left over to fertilize the turnip patch.

oudmood - 3-26-2014 at 10:27 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher  
From animals. The skin, bones, connective tissue are boiled and treated. The horse is the animal associated with glue but other animals are used. Hide glue has the advantage of being reversible.

Quote: Originally posted by Microber  
Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher  

You should know that some ouds and other wooden string instruments are held together with hide glue...

By the way what is hide glue made of ?




The big sneaker companies haven't used hide glue for decades because the synthetic glues they have now are much cheaper. I don't know who uses it or who doesn't. I'm sure it's in older instruments, but more expensive and less effective now, so I'm guessing it out of fashion.
Quote: Originally posted by alim  
Quote: Originally posted by oudmood  
I can't imagine the strings are worth slaughtering the animal, with who knows what humane standards they have (or dont have) in Morocco.
Very morbid and unnecessary


I know that animals are slaughtered humanely in Morocco.

Ali- (from Morocco)

PS. Somehow slaughter and humane don't go well in the same sentence...



They don't go well, but that's the paradox people are comfortable with.
If the animal are slaughtered in Morocco the Halal/kosher way, they let the animal bleed out whiles its conscious.



I get the whole don't be wasteful, use everything. But its just an excuse. I doubt anyone whose buisiness is slaughtering animals has that native american type of sensibility, to respect the animal by using using it. And there's a big difference: they used everything and respected the animal because they needed it.


Don't mean to take this threat off track, just thought it was a worthwhile point to make that gut strings are unnecessary, and I don't believe worth the animal's suffering. Theyre are cheaper, less morbid, and as effective, alternatives.

Jody Stecher - 3-26-2014 at 10:49 AM

Sneakers, unlike violins or ouds, do not need to be taken apart for repairs. . Hide glue has *not* gone out of fashion in lutherie. Many makers appreciate the fact that hide glue will adhere to itself. There is also an opinion that hide glue hardens in a way that conducts sound and contributes positively to the sound of the instrument in a way that no substitute can equal. I have not tested this so I have no opinion other than to note that "less effective" is not what comes to mind at all.

SamirCanada - 3-26-2014 at 11:02 AM

You could say that cheaper "less morbid" alternatives are better but I am not sure, you can argue that making plastic and nylon strings is much worse for the environment and more toxic. Also its a limited supply since it is based on oil exploitation.

I dont see it as an excuse, but rather as an opportunity if someone is thinking of aproaching a cattle farmer or a butcher so he can make use of otherwise disgarded parts of the animal, its a good thing not a bad thing.

That said, this animal has been specifically cared for and bred to become food, it wasnt going to have any other imaginated life of running free in the wilderness. It was always going to be food before it was even born. I am not sure if your point of view is from the western world but if you know a little bit about the middle east ( http://moroccanfood.about.com/od/ramadanspecialoccasions/a/Eid_Al_A... ), but you can be pretty sure there isnt going to be a wave of veganism sweeping the maghreb any time soon, so why not embrace the idea of using the most of the animal as possible.

Those discarded parts are probably not going to become glue since demand for hide glue is not what it used to be eversince more artificial (and more toxic) glues came on the market, they are vile and I will never use anything toxic to make my ouds any more. Its only a small amount of companies who still make hide glue now days. Jody you are %100 right, hide glue cures harder than glass actually since it is capable of shreding glass as it dries. IT is reversible and in my opinion it is way stronger than synthetics for wood applications. I use 260 bloom strength hide glue, and I can guarantee it would outperform even epoxy thats how hard it cures and how well it holds onto wood.

Anyways, the wasted parts will either become strings or fertilizer to raise vegetables, your choice but I think strings sound better and stink a little less :)

Jody Stecher - 3-27-2014 at 09:37 AM

Update:

Further talks with Paul indicate that messages to the email address written in French are likely to get a quick response. Also I found out that ever since Mad Cow all but wiped out the making of gut strings in European and the USA, North Africa has been the flourishing place for this endeavor. Players of "Early Music" instruments have been using gut strings made in Morocco (and Algeria?) for some time now and are happy with the strings and the lower prices.

jdowning - 3-29-2014 at 07:14 AM

It would be interesting to know if this gut string maker is working alone or is part of an established string making organisation - perhaps with long standing historical connections and hence with knowledge about early gut musical string making techniques.

Gut strings were (and still are) made for purposes other than musical instrument strings (e.g tennis racquet strings) and may be made from the intestines of any animal. The quality of a gut string depends upon the breed of animal, how it was fed, its age when slaughtered and the freshness of the gut. The early instrument string makers were part of abattoir establishments so obtained gut for processing from the freshly killed animals. Now the gut available commercially for string makers is likely to be immersed in preservative solutions and destined for sausage making - so is too large to make into instrument strings without splitting - a practice that at one time was banned by the string makers guilds.
The smallest diameter strings of a lute, for example, were made from unsplit whole gut of baby animals such as unweaned lambs (where these creatures were in plentiful supply). The preferred gut for instrument string making traditionally came from sheep, felines (cat gut), and canines. Cattle intestine was considered to be inferior for this purpose.
The attached paper- for information - that I wrote for FoMRHI a while back goes into a bit more detail.

jdowning - 3-29-2014 at 12:16 PM

On the separate question about the ethics and valid concerns about using animal parts for the construction of musical instruments. Until the general availability of plastic synthetics in the 1950's all ouds, lutes, guitars and other related stringed instruments were made from a combination of animal, vegetable and mineral materials - skin, bones intestines, silk filament, ivory, wood (and sometimes metals) - the death of not only animals but trees being an unavoidable part of the process.

The famous verse found on a number of European musical instruments of the 16th/17th C - attributed to 16th C luthier Gaspar Tieffenbrucker refers only to the wood of an instrument - "I was alive in the forest, I was cut down by the cruel axe; In life I was silent, in death I sweetly sing".
This sentiment should, of course, also apply to the animals that have provided the parts required for the rest of an instrument - skin for the glue, intestines for the strings, ivory or bone for the nut etc. Elevating these materials from the mundane to a higher spiritual level where they can 'sweetly sing' is the task of the luthier.

It is now possible to make an oud entirely from synthetic plastics, synthetic glues (and metals for the tuning machines) but is this what the market demands and can these instruments 'sweetly sing' compared to one made from traditional animal and vegetable materials? Of course, the way the world is going, there may be no choice in future other than a totally synthetic instrument.