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Perfection Pegs on my Copcuoglu Oud

rojaros - 5-4-2014 at 11:56 AM

Hello, finally after having seen Mustafa Said playing an oud with geared pegs I decided to go for it and did some research. There are not that many choices: Wittner from Germany, Perfection Pegs from Australia and Lauffer from Germany.

The first and the last are made of ABS plastic whereas Perfection pegs are available with ebony or rosewood knobs in Swiss or Hill style.

Because of aesthetic reasons I went for ebony Hill style knob Perfection pegs. Accidentally the holes in my Copcuoglu oud were almost right. I just reamed them a tiny bit with a 1:30 reamer and it was a no-brainer to install the pegs. I was glad to be able to use the electrical saw in Sebstian Stenzel's workshop for shortening the pegs to measure.

I'm absolutely content with the optical result as well as with the way how they function. This this effect one sometimes has: 'Why in the world didn't I do it earlier?'

It's just so convenient and tuning is so easy and smooth. The tuning is maintained very well after the strings have settled.

And Simon from Perfection Pegs is a very nice and helpful guy. I suggested to create oud sets of pegs to make the thing more attractive for oud players and they are considering it.

Here is a front view in detail ((c) Paul Jaroslawski)

[file]31288[/file]

rojaros - 5-4-2014 at 12:05 PM

And here the front view of the whole oud ((c) Paul Jaroslawski):

[file]31290[/file]

hussamd - 5-4-2014 at 03:09 PM

Looks great! Very nice. Geared pegs would be too heavy and will throw the balance off, plus they do not look right on the oud.

The cost of the pegs and the reamer will be over $260, ouch!

rojaros - 5-5-2014 at 12:39 AM

These pegs do not weigh significantly more than the original pegs I was using made from ebony. There is no change in balance! And the oud sounds better than before, which was found not only by myself but also by my luthier friend Sebastian Stenzel.

I don't think anybody would be even able to recognize that they are geared pegs without close inspection and some knowledge about these pegs.

The cost is high, indeed, but the advantages are also great. I don't think cost is a reason to dismiss them. People spend a lot of money on less important things like ornamentation and fancy materials. This is well invested money!

best

Robert

hussamd - 5-5-2014 at 11:10 AM

I meant the guitar style pegs like the ones in the Godin MultiOud or some of the new ouds from Turkey with a guitar neck. The ones you used are a brilliant substitute. I found a video on Youtube that detailed installing it for a violin.

I totally agree with you they are worth it.

bulerias1981 - 5-5-2014 at 03:22 PM

I've installed these pegs for some clients. I like them, although, if pegs are fitted well, with quality materials, peg shavers are properly razor sharp, a good set of pegs is great.

rojaros - 5-6-2014 at 05:51 AM

Quote: Originally posted by bulerias1981

I've installed these pegs for some clients. I like them, although, if pegs are fitted well, with quality materials, peg shavers are properly razor sharp, a good set of pegs is great.

Agree, but still it's sooo much better ...

Mike - 5-6-2014 at 08:17 AM

Hey Robert,

Just picked up some of these for Maurice. Just curious...what size did you use? I got Mo one set (i.e. 3 sets of 4) of the 9.0mm, and a few of the 8.5 and 8.3. The 7.8 is the most common, but may be too small for an oud. These are really great pegs, and in my opinion well worth the price. Lee Varis put these on his Egyptian oud back in 2004, and absolutely loved them. That oud had poorly fitted olive wood pegs. Installing the pegheds was a huge upgrade to an overall good oud.

Take care,
Mike

rojaros - 5-6-2014 at 12:03 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Mike

Hey Robert,

Just picked up some of these for Maurice. Just curious...what size did you use? I got Mo one set (i.e. 3 sets of 4) of the 9.0mm, and a few of the 8.5 and 8.3. The 7.8 is the most common, but may be too small for an oud. These are really great pegs, and in my opinion well worth the...

Take care,
Mike

Hi Mike, I used P1VN44 EH (7.8mm) throughout the whole oud and there was plenty of length to play with. I also ordered a set of 7.8mm for my Stenzel oud which is 7 course Arabic type of oud (though with an exceptionally elegant and slim peg box. But the measurements show that the 7.8 will be enough here too.

There is a link on their home page to the actual measurements of the different sizes of the pegs (see here: perfection pegs sizes)

For me it looks like the only difference is in diameter (which would mean that it depends of how far the holes are reamed out in first place...

best wishes
Robert

Alfaraby - 5-6-2014 at 02:21 PM

I have had these planetary geared smart pegs on my son's oud for the last year or so and he's so happy with them.
Actually I am

. I fitted them in his 1/2 oud, which previously had 7.8 rosewood pegs, using 1:30 taper reamer.

Choosing the right taper is perhaps the second important thing that should be taken care of after choosing the right pegs.
Viola pegs are often chosen for ouds due to their longer and thicker shaft. Violin &/or Viola shafts taper is 1:30, while Cello taper is usually 1:25.

Taper may be easily calculated using this simplified equation: (a-b)÷ c (a: diameter under ring, b:diameter at the edge. c: shaft length). Once you have the exact reamer for these geared pegs, you are going to experience a whole new generation: no breakage, no slipping, no crashes minutes before going on-stage, no more endless hours of tuning the last accurate cent you'd want.
IT'S OVER !
An eminent oud player once said after using these geared pegs: I've probably wasted 5 years of my life in tuning ouds ! What a waste. ENOUGH !

Regardless of this topic, last week I ordered more sets for my ouds, after closely observing those black dwarfs on action on my son's, for almost a year.
I picked Wittner's Finetune Pegs for the old company's reputation and experience. Wittner does not sell just anything.
This does not belittle the others: Knilling's or Herin's. I assume they are as good and suitable.
Take A look: http://www.wittner-gmbh.de/cgi-bin/db_search_e.pl?rubrik=Finetune-P...

BTW, I have ordered the 9.2 mm at ring, since the regular wooden oud-pegs and peg-holes are pretty close to these dimensions and cone.

Waiting for the sets to arrive, I'm literally frightened I might fall in love with those new bastards on my favorite, so that I'd have to replace all the others. OMG ! This is going to cost me a real fortune, believe me.

As to the expense, let us just remember how much we pay for perishable components such as the high quality strings that we usually throw away after a month or two, or such as polishing and cleaning solutions; or for maintenance like adjusting the action or leveling the fingerboard. Compared to these expenditures, this expense is once in a oud life-time, so let it be.

One last thing: I've decided to order only 10 pegs for each of my ouds (C shall stay in wood) not intending to save a nickel or two, but because the Finetune pegs I've ordered weigh 4-5 grams or so more than any matching rosewood or ebony peg I have weighed. Take a look.

Good tuning

Yours indeed
Alfaraby

[file]31318[/file] [file]31320[/file] [file]31322[/file]
Ebony / Rosewood / Finetuner

rojaros - 5-7-2014 at 08:53 AM

I also considered Wittner, but they only have ABS knobs, andI did not want to habe plastic knobs on my oud. So I decided to go for the Perfection Pegs. They also don't sell just anything

Jody Stecher - 5-7-2014 at 09:00 AM

Is there a reason that "Pegheds" have not been mentioned (except once in passing)?

http://www.pegheds.com/index.htm

Has anyone tried these on oud?

Mike - 5-7-2014 at 09:26 AM

Hey Robert,

Thanks for the info. Looks like you got lucky with the sizing being a perfect match. That's awesome.

Jody: I think John Herin's "Pegheds" are the same as the Knilling Perfection Pegs and the ones sold by the Australian company where Robert got his from. I may be wrong about this, but I believe those may be his distributors. Lee put the Pegheds on his oud, but unfortunately I think the pictures of that oud with them on it were deleted when I had to prune a bunch of attachments a few months back.

rojaros - 5-7-2014 at 08:39 PM

Jody, From my little research I think Pegheads and Perfection Pegs are basically the same, though Pegheads are very sparsely documented as to their properties; there is not even an installation document on the web.

And being happy with the Perfection Pegs I don't see any reason to search any further.

MatthewW - 5-9-2014 at 09:43 AM

these geared tuners look like a great discovery, and if our man Alfaraby is excited about these new 'bastards' then so am I, knowing what an oud fanatic he is!

Like many of us, I get soooooo frustrated at times by trying to fine tune my oud and twisting a peg this way or that. I recall a spoof clip on youtube about some guy trying to tune his oud and the pegs creaking like mad, I think he finally pulled out some pliers to turn them - would love to see it again, anyone have a link to ti?

rojaros - 5-9-2014 at 03:29 PM

All I can say is that after installing these geared pegs I asked myself why I have spent so much time struggling to tune my oud well ... it's a new oud life.

Alfaraby - 5-9-2014 at 11:14 PM

Quote: Originally posted by MatthewW

. I recall a spoof clip on youtube about some guy trying to tune his oud and the pegs creaking like mad, I think he finally pulled out some pliers to turn them - would love to see it again, anyone have a link to ti?

http://youtu.be/KwGqsWNc_MU

MatthewW - 5-9-2014 at 11:22 PM

thanks Alfaraby, that clip about sums up the problem!

rojaros - 5-12-2014 at 03:56 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Lute

Expensive for what they are! I will wait until the Chinese start making them, perhaps they already have:-)

Maybe expensive for somebody with too little money to buy them (which is a pitty but doesn't have anything to do with the pegs themselves), but certainly not expensive for "what they are". They are little wonder machines.

Of course Chinese learn to imitate everything and maybe also, with time, to invent great things. After a while maybe everything will be 'Made in China'. That will be the moment when the chinese products will cease to be cheaper than any others because they will be no other things.

Sometimes we have to reflect our attitudes and their consequences in the long run...

hussamd - 5-12-2014 at 04:27 AM

For people that live in the US, Musiciansfriend.com has them. They have 15% sale every now and then. That would be the time to get them.

rojaros - 5-14-2014 at 02:49 PM

They are on sale on Musicianfriend.com right now, but only in the simple ABS plastic knob version (which might be OK as well)...

hussamd - 12-6-2015 at 05:18 AM

Finally decided to install the perfection pegs on my Ghadban oud. Any advice on string order since the string holes may not be conveniently located like when drilling them to order on a wooden peg. I want to avoid drastic string angles from the nut to the peg. The pegs are here but the stupid post office missed the delivery for the reamer.

I have had it with pegs slipping and 3 hand tuning exercise.