Mike's Oud Forums

Some problems with my new Rabih Haddad Oud/

alloushé - 8-18-2017 at 03:02 PM

Hi everybody,

I got my new ebony oud (floating bridge) from Rabih Haddad. Natural person and beautiful piece. However i noticed some abnormalities that may need attention and wish to have your opinions.

See attached photos.

1- When I put a light facing the bowl, I can see light from the other side in at least 4 regions. It is like if there was ribs separation. Tried that on my old oud and no light infiltration, What do you think ? :photos 2-3-4

2- At the top of the neck, i can see something weird, it is not the same level.. (compare red arrows height) : photos number 1.

I need more than one opinion to know why these symptoms are there and whether it is something serious.. Thanks.

4 by A M, on Flickr

5 by A M, on Flickr

1 by A M, on Flickr

2 by A M, on Flickr

alloushé - 8-19-2017 at 01:18 PM

no opinions about my issues ?

Edward6311 - 8-19-2017 at 04:10 PM

Being that it is a new Oud, I would give it back to the builder for repairs or replacement. To me it looks like mistakes made while building the Oud. If it can't be repaired correctly, he should replace it. Good luck

alloushé - 8-19-2017 at 04:51 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Edward6311  
Being that it is a new Oud, I would give it back to the builder for repairs or replacement. To me it looks like mistakes made while building the Oud. If it can't be repaired correctly, he should replace it. Good luck


Hi , thanks. Could you please tell me what do you mean by "repaired correctly" ? the ribs need to be disassembled and the neck too ? So many hours should be spent on it to correctly repair it ?

Edward6311 - 8-20-2017 at 09:37 AM

You are right, I beleive to repair this Oud correctly it would have to be disassembled and reassembled. It would then have to be refinished and hopefuly not have any visual or structural affects of the repair. I would rather have a replacement than have a new Oud that had to go through that process.

I have refinished one of my Ouds and have had luthiers work on one of my Ouds, but I am not an expert on how these repairs would be conducted. Hopefuly you can get a response and advice from one of the multiple experts, Oud builders and luthiers that belong to this forum.

Eddie

alloushé - 8-22-2017 at 09:28 AM

Thank you guys for your usefull private messages. I will follow up on this subject and make a post once I finish dealing with these issues.

ma_sabba - 8-22-2017 at 10:14 AM

Hi Alloushe,

My two cents on this issue; I've went through both problems on my ouds. Problem 2 is essentially cosmetic and is quite common even on good ouds. Depending on how much you paid for the instrument, I'd just live with it. If it bothers you, ask to have the joint reglued.

Problem 1 can be more serious. It is especially common on bowls with complex multiwood inlays (wood expands and contracts at different rates based on the heat/humidity) and I would assume that weather changes are responsible for the issue. Luckily it seems like a minor separation (if visible only with light) and any competent luthier/the maker should be able to glue or fill the gap with ease. Good luck.

Best regards,
Mohamed

SamirCanada - 8-22-2017 at 12:24 PM

here is my opinion on the subject. Full disclosure I don't know of this ouds or his work.

Regarding rib separation, it is something that can be easily repaired by gap filling glue from the inside the bowl and covered with a paper strip soaked in glue. Although good oud makers strive to make each rib joint light tight along the whole length, it is very hard to achieve. It's not unusual to find this on many "top quality" ouds. its better to correct the issue now because it will worsen over time and humidity changes.

The second issue, its a cosmetic issue. I would leave it alone unless you are very unhappy about it but you bought the oud for a significant amount of money. I mean, show it to him and see what he says...

alloushé - 8-22-2017 at 02:08 PM

My doubts and my topic were then well-founded, thank you guys for sharing your knowledge and advices.

SamirCanada - 8-23-2017 at 06:25 AM

Thanks, nice oud and playing.

Thanks for sharing, I had seen this before but didn't know who's oud he was playing.

I have seen him play mostly Fadi Matta's ouds but lately I even saw him play a student level oud made by Zyriab and it sounded great. He would make anything sound great though.

jdowning - 8-26-2017 at 04:51 AM

The rib gaps are all at a location on the bowl that is the most difficult to join precisely (i.e. just above the neck block position) so may be an original 'defect' and not something that has occurred after manufacture due to humidity changes etc? The gaps are very fine as the 'light behind' test tends to visually greatly exaggerate the separation.
The traditional method for building a bowl - using hot hide glue - is to reinforce the rib joints inside a bowl with paper strips glued in place - in which case any slight gaps in the rib joints would be of no consequence (they would be filled with glue) and would otherwise not be visible if a light is shone behind (unless the paper strip has also split). Has this bowl then been constructed without the usual interior reinforcing strips? If so is this now a modern practice and for what reason? Just curious.

alloushé - 8-27-2017 at 02:27 AM

Quote: Originally posted by jdowning  
The rib gaps are all at a location on the bowl that is the most difficult to join precisely (i.e. just above the neck block position) so may be an original 'defect' and not something that has occurred after manufacture due to humidity changes etc? The gaps are very fine as the 'light behind' test tends to visually greatly exaggerate the separation.


There are also gaps from the other side (the bridge side) of the oud, not only from the neck side, about 2 mm in two or three locations (that's what I can see without removing the strings). There is an evident lack of wood material in the bowl in at least one area (bridge side). The separations are generally approx 4 inches long.
According to the manufacturing date of the oud, I agree that this is an original defect and not something occurred after manufacturing due to humidity changes.

jdowning - 8-27-2017 at 04:57 AM

Are all of the rib joints inside the bowl reinforced with glued paper strips along their entire length? Presumably not?

alloushé - 8-27-2017 at 06:24 AM

Quote: Originally posted by jdowning  
Are all of the rib joints inside the bowl reinforced with glued paper strips along their entire length? Presumably not?


Here is a photo of the inside,I see a weird agglomerate (bridge side)...I don't see glued paper strip, do you ?

6 by A M, on Flickr

jdowning - 8-27-2017 at 05:27 PM

Thanks for posting the image for clarification alloushé. No I do not see any evidence of reinforcing strips either.

So the questions I have, that perhaps can be answered by other practising luthiers on this forum' is why is there no joint reinforcement - is this a 'modern' non traditional practice but why? Is the intent cosmetic perhaps (no visible 'ugly' paper strips) - due to the open sound hole providing a clear view of the bowl interior? Or could it be that modern synthetic glues are assumed to be - for some reason - so superior to traditional hide glue that additional reinforcement is not considered necessary? Or is it just a small cost saving practice - one less operation in constructing a bowl? Just curious.

alloushé - 8-28-2017 at 01:14 AM

Hello,

Here is a brief description of what happened from the beginning:

1-I met Rabih Haddad for the first time via an acquaintance and bought the first oud (oud 1) from him (fixed bridge, walnut and cedar).

2-Few days later, I noticed that this oud was always impossible to tune. Then the area around the bridge was becoming more and more convex due to string tension.

3-A couple of days later, we met again and he proposed to show me another similar oud but with a floating bridge (oud 2: same price) in addition to a 6 courses ebony oud plus wittner pegs (oud 3: the one suffering from issues described in this post). Yet, there was a significant difference in the prices of both ouds 2 and 3.

4-Accordingly, we met several days later. I returned to him oud 1 and finally chose oud 3.

5-Two days later, I noticed the issues described in this thread. I immediately contacted Rabih who justified that this is the painter’s fault who sanded the wood much more than necessary (concerning the bowl issues).

6-We met several days later. He said that he actually did not have any more ouds for sale. I told him that I will come back for Christmas so he will have a larger choice (so he can keep the actual one). He agreed and then he proposed to show me a 7-courses ebony oud (oud 4) as a last try (I prefer 6 courses). We agreed to meet the next morning.

7-Until that moment, all our conversations were within the cordial and comprehensive limits.


8-The next day, I contacted him few hours before the meeting to ask him to also bring “oud 2” in addition to “oud 4”. The idea was to retry it “oud 2” because I had the intention to buy it for my brother.
Surprisingly, he replied that the 7-courses ebony oud (oud 4) was not available immediately anymore. He was going to bring “oud 2” only with the price difference of “oud 3”. I told him that I may not take “oud 2” for sure so he can be prepared for a full refund (as agreed in point 6)

9-At that stage, Rabih became aggressive and started making negative judgments. He adopted a surprising unprofessional attitude. I stayed calm and within the professional limits. He said then there will be no communication between us anymore and that he will send me “oud 1” plus the price difference with the same person who introduced me to him in the first place. He did not reply to any further messages.

10-I immediately contacted the person in charge of delivering “oud 1” to me. The latter told me that Rabih changed his mind once more and that there wont be any sort of exchange or “oud 1”+ price difference. All what he offered was to repair the issues of “oud 3” and to return it the next day. Since I did not have the choice, I had to accept the proposed offer.

11-After the repair, the nut was rectified. The bowl condition is shown in the attached photos. Nothing has changed. I notice an additional crack on the external side and a weird agglomerate inside the bowl (bridge side) .

6 by A M, on Flickr

3 by A M, on Flickr

1 by A M, on Flickr




8 by A M, on Flickr



alloushé - 8-30-2017 at 03:59 PM

I can't count on Rabih solving the problem as he cut the communication and reacted in a non-professional manner...

Before buying, when I was negotiating the price, he told me exactly : "my oud is guaranteed for 1, 2, 3 , 4, 5 years, as much as you want.." I finally paid him the price he fixed, not one cent less.

After buying he told me right before cutting the communication: "you should have verified the Oud before paying". Maybe I trusted him so fast...

Alfaraby - 9-1-2017 at 04:33 PM

A contract is concluded when a proposal is accepted by the counter party. It's known in Contracts as `proposal and acceptance`. Offering new merchandise &/or service to the public is a proposal that, when accepted, creates a valid contract, according to which part A supplies the goods &/or service, while part B ought to pay. Once part B pays (or barters) the agreed consideration, part A is obliged to provide the agreed merchandise &/or service. Any bear off of the agreed is a breach of contract that entitles the injured party to sue for his damage.

"Part A" here should be warned as follows: either you supply an intact oud, or refund the client, including his expenses; otherwise this case shall be brought to Justice.

My advise to both parties though is that a compromise outside the courthouse is more desirable and placate than litigation.

Yours indeed
Alfaraby