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Nahat Family saga

Dr. Oud - 4-29-2005 at 03:41 AM

I recently received some email from Guilherme Nahat, who is the grandson of Jorge Abdo Nahat. Jorge is now 97 and not well, but Guilherme has been responding to my questions about his family's history. He says they left Syria in 1959 and that Jorge made his last oud in 1979. No one else in the family has made an oud since. He sys his father considered Abdo the best maker in the history of the family's oud production. They are indeed living in Brazil, but this is as much as I had learned. He has promised to send me pictures of ouds, and perhaps some family photos as well. I'm hoping to get more information without prying too much, but what a thrill to make this contact. My obsession with the Nahat family's ouds apparently has been fruitful. I plan to add a page on my site with the family's story, and so am asking the forum members to send me any info or stories about their Nahat knowledge or experiences.

Jameel - 4-29-2005 at 04:39 AM

Richard,

This is great news. What a discovery! I really look forward to more info on the Nahats. I think I'm as obsessed with them as you! What do you think about that "new" Brazilian "nahat" from the 80's that we all know, given your new information? I encourage you to start a website for them, a sort of on-line museum for the Stradivarius of ouds.

Mike - 5-2-2005 at 05:26 AM

Hey Doc,

That is great news. It is excellent that you were able to get in touch with the family. I know there is some confusion with the lineage of this great oudmaking family. Hopefully your dilligence will be able to help clear it up for us all. Looking forward to seeing this thread develop into something great.

Take care,
Mike

Just wondering

Chris_Khouri - 5-2-2005 at 12:18 PM

I wonder how much time it takes to make one of the these round things in the middle of the ood. (Called shamseyyeh in Arabic). I can't remember the name no matter how much i try. lol

Chris

Alan - 5-2-2005 at 02:34 PM

Hey Doc,
I look forward to the results of your research. I long to learn more about the "old man in the oud". That is what I remember as a child looking into my father's oud.
Be well,
Alan

Dr. Oud - 5-3-2005 at 04:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sidi
You know him and I'm sure most of you admire his work:

I think I recognize Qasabji playing with Umm Kalthoum on the Tunis satellite tv channel Saturday nights. Or is that Sombati?

As for making Roses or Shamsiyeh(sp?) I have made one in as little as 6 hours, and as long as 3 days (20 hours) They can be laser cut in about 30 seconds for about $30-$40. The one on the Qasabji Nahat would take me about a year!

The Nahat mystery deepens...Samir reports that Jorge died in 1950 something in Syria and never married. Perhaps Guilherme is using the term grandfather as many do for any elderly person? But then I have a 1959 Jorge Nahat, and then there's that Brazil Nahat from 1983... Somebody reported that the labels in some of his ouds list Hanna as Abdo's son, and he believes Jorge is Hanna's son. This makes sense chronologically at least. It's been suggested that someone go to the public records in Damascus and straighten this all out. I'm sure it would be possible for a Syrian native, maybe someone out there, somewhere...

Mike - 5-4-2005 at 08:40 AM

Hey Doc,

I think I am totally confused now! :rolleyes:

When I get home later today, I'll try to post some pictures of some Nahat labels that might confuse us some more or clarify some stuff.

Take care,
Mike

Mike - 5-4-2005 at 04:23 PM

Okay, here are those photos.

An 1892 Ikhwan Nahat Oud Label
Notice the second label on the top for Tewfiq Hanna Nahat dated 1947. From this we can find out that Tewfiq is the son of Hanna. But who was Hanna's father?

A 1905 Abdo and Roufan Nahat Oud Label
Notice Abdo's name on his collar. We can't see Roufan's collar, but I believe there was a picture of Alan's oud label where this was much clearer. So from this label we can assume Abdo and Roufan were brothers.

Two pictures of a 1918 Abdo George Nahat Oud Label
From this label we find out that Abdo's father's name was George. So that would make Roufan George's son also. This is not the George Abdo Nahat or George Hanna Nahat in question, but rather his great grandfather or great great grandfather.

And finally,

A George Hanna Nahat Oud Label
The Hanna is very clear here. The first name is not, but the first letter is "geem" or "jeem". So from this we assume George's father to be Hanna. This is where it is confusing based on the information Richard has recently received.

Dr. Oud - 5-4-2005 at 08:35 PM

Many thanks for the labels and for decifering them. I have a few more on my new Nahat Page. I also want to thank everyone who has sent pictures of their ouds to me. Now I'd like to ask your help again. If you could take a picture of the label in your oud or have someone read it for the full name of the maker and date, and email it to me, it will be most appreciated. I would also like to get measurements of your Nahat for Body width, length and depth; string length; neck length; and location and size of the Rose hole(s). If you wish I will list the owners of each oud in the gallery, or you may want to remain anonymous. I hope all the Nahat owners will help to tell the story of this remarkable family and their legendary ouds.

Hi Doc,

Sidi - 5-8-2005 at 03:56 PM

Here are some pictures of Farid playing his George Nahat oud. I have the video those B/W caps came from. I'll feature it in an upcoming post.

Dr. Oud - 5-11-2005 at 07:48 PM

I found a picture of a 1920 (or 1930) Tufiq Oud with a clean picture of the label. This is the only Tufiq I've found so far. Anybody ever seen another?

eliot - 5-11-2005 at 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dr. Oud
I found a picture of a 1920 (or 1930) Tufiq Oud with a clean picture of the label. This is the only Tufiq I've found so far. Anybody ever seen another?

I'm very interested in the bridge assembly - it looks like there is a pick guard on the opposite side of the bridge - is this to cover up a previous bridge location? Or are there some special oud playing techniques used in the 20s but forgotten today?

Dr. Oud - 5-12-2005 at 10:33 AM

Quote:

...I'm very interested in the bridge assembly - it looks like there is a pick guard on the opposite side of the bridge - is this to cover up a previous bridge location? Or are there some special oud playing techniques used in the 20s but forgotten today?

I've never seen that before myself, I'd guess it covers some damage, but who knows.
I've made a Timeline of the information I've collected so far.

Elias - 5-13-2005 at 08:40 AM

Hello,
I am the owner of that Tawfiq Nahat...i don't know the real meaning of that cover at the end of the bridge, it could be an old damage...but it doesen't seem..i can only see that there are still little signs of a pencil around it..but the sound..ooh! the sound is so beautiful...
Salamat
Elias

Dr. Oud - 5-14-2005 at 06:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Elias
Hello,
I am the owner of that Tawfiq Nahat...i don't know the real meaning of that cover at the end of the bridge, it could be an old damage...but it doesen't seem..i can only see that there are still little signs of a pencil around it..but the sound..ooh! the sound is so beautiful...
Salamat
Elias

The bridge may have been moved. If you can post or u2u or email me the dimensions of your oud I can compare it with others and see if that is the case. If you can measure the String length; Body width, length and depth; Neck length; and size and location of the Shamsiya (Rose hole). At any rate, if it sounds good, just play it.

Jameel - 5-16-2005 at 02:09 PM

Quote:

Elias,

I love your Nahat. What is the material on the back of the neck and the pegbox? Do you have any nice pics (other than on Parfitt's site) of the oud you could share?

Thanks!

Elias - 5-17-2005 at 02:07 AM

Hello Jameel,
The back of the neck and peghole is made of Sadaf(mother pearl)like the fingerboard. For the moment i don't have any other nice pics of it, only some of me playing it at concert but these are not very nice cause unfortunatly i am more in evidence then Nahat ...
For Dr.Oud sorry for the delay but i will send you all the dimension measures of the instrument you asked in a couple of days...
Salamat
Elias

Jameel - 5-17-2005 at 04:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Elias
Hello Jameel,
The back of the neck and peghole is made of Sadaf(mother pearl)like the fingerboard. For the moment i don't have any other nice pics of it, only some of me playing it at concert but these are not very nice cause unfortunatly i am more in evidence then Nahat ...
For Dr.Oud sorry for the delay but i will send you all the dimension measures of the instrument you asked in a couple of days...
Salamat
Elias

Elias,

Thanks for the info. Interesting. Would you mind sending a copy of those measurements to me too?

Jonathan - 6-1-2005 at 12:35 PM

Here's an Abdo Nahat, 1930

Jonathan - 6-1-2005 at 12:36 PM

Abdo, 1930

Jonathan - 6-1-2005 at 12:37 PM

sorry, forgot the pic

Jonathan - 6-1-2005 at 12:37 PM

I think the fingerboard is pretty cool.
This is the only good thing I think I ever found on ebay.

samzayed - 6-1-2005 at 07:37 PM

you found a Nahat on e-bay? Please, tell me more

Mabrouk!

Jonathan - 6-1-2005 at 07:52 PM

Last week. It had just been listed, and I was the first person to see the listing. The little counter on the bottom actually said "1". A grand total of $525 (I used Buy it Now). It makes up for all the times I got junk from ebay.

samzayed - 6-1-2005 at 08:34 PM

You bought a 1930 Nahat for $525 on ebay? What????? There's still hope for the rest of us . . .

So what kind of condition is it in? Is it playable? So have you verified its legit? Forgive give for sounding rude, but I've heard that Nahats are often forged, especially in the Middle East. But this looks legit, as far as I can tell. Can you post more pics of the back?

Here's a 1889 Abdo (from Dr. Oud's site) http://www.droud.com/photogallery/Nahat/1888AbdoFront1.jpg Looks almost exactly as yours!

Great find Jonathan!

Jameel - 6-2-2005 at 03:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jonathan
Last week. It had just been listed, and I was the first person to see the listing. The little counter on the bottom actually said "1". A grand total of $525 (I used Buy it Now). It makes up for all the times I got junk from ebay.

I check Ebay everyday, and didn't see this! I'm jealous Jonathan! Congratulations! Can we see a pick of the back? How does it sound?

Jonathan - 6-3-2005 at 04:41 AM

Thanks, guys. I really think it is real. It is definitely an old oud, and it feels authentic, but I have never held a Nahat in my hands before. I can post more pics, but I won't be able to for a few days. I am not an expert. I am certainly not opposed to sending it out to some expert for authentication, but I don't know if we oud players actually have such a thing.
Dr. Oud, thanks. I will send out the measurements in about a week or so. As far as the sound-- I don't know yet. I was accidentally sent Turkish strings instead of Arabic, so I will order a new set, string it up, and post a sound file. You guys can let me know.

Jonathan - 6-18-2005 at 12:59 PM

Here are the measurements for that 1930 Abdo:
Body width: 13 7/8 inches
Body length: 19 3/8 "
Body depth: 7 1/2 "
String length: 24 1/8 "
Neck length: 8"
Rosettes: 4 5/8 inches diam., 1 1/4" diam.
Sorry, couldn't find a tape measure with cms on it at the moment.

I am going to try to post a sound file in the next week or so--I just restrung it, and am waiting for the strings to settle down a bit.
Jonathan

Jonathan - 6-20-2005 at 05:17 PM

I am posting a quickie sound file of that oud. I have no idea what a Nahat is supposed to sound like, but I do like the tone on this oud. Really full bodied, and I like the bass a lot--which I guess explains why there is a lot of it here. I didn't add any effects to the sound--it just came out like this. Let me know what you think of the sound--I am curious. Just remember that if you give a little kid a Stradivarius, it is just going to sound like a fiddle.

jorge nahat

samir - 6-21-2005 at 09:25 PM

pic

samir - 6-21-2005 at 09:27 PM

1928 Nahhat

Nahat sound

spyrosc - 6-22-2005 at 12:33 AM

Congratulations Jonathan.

That is a Nahat sound (not a fiddle)

Spyros C.

Faladel - 6-22-2005 at 03:42 AM

Waw Samir :::very Nice :::¿is your this oud??
regards

Elias - 6-22-2005 at 08:47 AM

Hello,
Sorry Dr Oud and Jameel......i completely forgot to send you the measurements of my Toufiq Nahat!!...if you're still intrested:
string lenght: 62cm
neck :21 cm
Body is 51,5cm lenght x 36,5 width x 21depth...
if you need something else just ask...i will answer more quickly than this time!! i hope...
Salamat
Elias

just

samir - 6-22-2005 at 12:12 PM

hi faladel
not mine
just i repaired it

Dr. Oud - 6-22-2005 at 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Elias...string lenght: 62cm
neck :21 cm
Body is 51,5cm lenght x 36,5 width x 21depth...
if you need something else just ask...i will answer more quickly than this time!! i hope...
Salamat
Elias

If you could..measure the size and location of the shams and eyun (sound holes) - Measure from the neck joint to the bottom edge of the Shams (big hole) and to the top edge of the small holes (eyun). Thanks (shukran).

Elias - 6-23-2005 at 12:20 AM

hello,
so...it's 21cm from the neck to the bottom of the shams and 30.5cm to small holes' top...i am enjoying mesure ouds!, just ask new measurements!

Need sound file?...i'll try to record something ant to post it, but i am not so good with computers stuff...
Salamat
Elias

Elias - 6-23-2005 at 11:41 AM

....and the diamter of the sham is 11,5 and the small hole 4,3 cm..

Dr. Oud - 7-8-2005 at 01:58 PM

I just did a big update in the Nahat museum. I want to thank Spyros Camateros for a great effort translating and analyzing labels and Shamsiyeh. Without his expert analysis I would have been lost in the maze of names and dates. I have also made contact with another descendant in Brazil who has promised a family history. New ouds added include an Abdo "Hanum" oud from around 1890. There are label translations and a geneology chart by Spyros. check it out!
http://www.droud.com/nahats.htm

Jonathan - 7-8-2005 at 02:10 PM

Wow! It's incredible what you have done. The geneology tree, in particular, really helps make sense of all the different names and relationships.

Dr. Oud - 9-20-2005 at 08:34 AM

I have just received email from Nahat family members in France, Switzerland and Saudi Arabia! I am compiling the information and will have an update for the history in the Nahat Museum soon. This is very exciting as it clarifies the history that was based on only label information previously. There are as you know also family in Sao Paolo, and now I learned there are more in US, Canada, England as well as some still in Damascus. Stay tuned for more info soon.

kasos - 9-20-2005 at 01:58 PM

Great work on the Nahat site, Doc.... The Nahat instruments are a great symbolic focal point, and it is a tremendous service to oudists everywhere to have the pictures and information readily available. Many thanks, Mark.

Dr. Oud - 9-23-2005 at 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by kasos
Great work on the Nahat site, Doc.... The Nahat instruments are a great symbolic focal point, and it is a tremendous service to oudists everywhere to have the pictures and information readily available. Many thanks, Mark.

I am reciving extensive information about the family from descendants of Antun Nahat. The new information clarifies dates and relationships. They have sent messages to other members scattered around the world in England, Switzerland, Saudia Arabia, USA, Canada and Brazil. Sadly, no one is making ouds any more, but there is a professional oudist in Damascus. Stay tuned ...

In a side note, I am presenting a workshop on Persian music in Portland OR Oct 16 with John Bilezikiian.
Nahat Museum

Jonathan - 9-23-2005 at 02:26 PM

I wish somebody would host a show like that in LA. Looks fantastic.

Dr. Oud - 10-5-2005 at 10:42 AM

The Nahat Museum has a been updated with some new pictures of ouds, labels and a new genealogy compiled by Spyros from information received by descendants of the oud makers. Contact has been made with family members in Brazil, France, Switzerland, Saudia Arabia and Canada. other descendants are living in England and the US as well as Damascus. There are many creative artists and professional people but sadly no more oud makers. Check it out.