Mike's Oud Forums

Maqam Question

TruePharaoh21 - 10-22-2005 at 11:13 PM

Hey everyone,

I've come across the maqam twice now. I'm relatively sure this is the sequence of notes:

C Db Eb F Gb A Bb C

Edit: The above sequence was editted so that people just visiting this post now won't get initially confused.


Thanks in advance,
TP21

oudman - 10-23-2005 at 05:39 AM

Ive never seen this sequence. If you replace your E half flat with an Eb, it would make the maqam tarznawin* (similar to Shuri, but shuri would use a D half flat making the bottom tetrichord bayati - and normally bayatis tonic is D) which is used a lot.
Where did you hear the sequence you mention?

*some arabic books on music call a transposed version of the maqam bastanikar on E half flat maqam tarzanwin as well

al-Halabi - 10-23-2005 at 08:17 AM

Oudman is correct. There is no known maqam with this sequence of intervals. You might want to check on the notes in the sequence C-F, in which something is off. Maqams are composites of recognizble trichords/tetrachords/pentachords. These groups of three, four or five notes are the irreducible building blocks of the modal system. So when we analyze your maqam, it is not correct to say that the first two notes belong to a Hijaz tetrachord, followed by Saba. There have to be full tetrachords making up the maqam, not parts of tetrachords. This makes sense because it's a full tetrachord that captures the melodic substance and feel that we associate with Hijaz, Kurd, Bayati, etc. In this case, the first two notes C Db could also be the beginning of Kurd; without the characteristic augmented second of Hijaz (Db-E) followed by a half-tone interval (E-F) we will not be hearing Hijaz here, only a half-tone interval which by itself cannot be the basis of melody-making that a full tetrachord provides. The scale of your maqam has a Hijaz pentachord on F, but the first tetrachord on C is not one found in any maqam. If the E half-flat is actually Eb, you will have a Kurd tetrachord on C. If it is a very high E half-flat, that will give you a Hijaz tetrachord on C. But as things stand you are in a no-man's-land with this first tetrachord.

TruePharaoh21 - 10-23-2005 at 10:23 AM

Oh I definitely know it's not correct to break tetrachords up like that, don't get me wrong. This is why it didn't seem very realistic to me that the maqam would be like this (and why I was led to ask :D). I believe I simply miscalculated. It seems as though the third note would be Eb, which would allow for a Kurd tetrachord to be established. Does Tarznawin conform with that? Here's a sound clip, for example...

TP21

al-Halabi - 10-23-2005 at 11:10 AM

Your clip sounds like a descending cadence in maqam Karjighar/Shuri (Bayati on D and Hijaz on G). Tarznawin is different: the lower tetrachord is Kurdi (usually on C) followed by a Hijaz pentachord on F.

oudman - 10-23-2005 at 11:54 AM

Well this is from Riyad el Sunbatis Hagartak which begins in Kurd. I was just listening to Oum Kalthoum singing the part you are referring to (bafakkar fi-attached) and she emphasizes the kurd tetrichord on the bottom which would make it tarznawin. (its a little hard to be 100% sure because of the audiences applause, but it would make sense because the song is in kurd).
Im assuming that the singer you posted sang that part incorrectly (using the bottom tetrichord bayati rather than kurd)
There is definitely no E half flat in there though

TruePharaoh21 - 10-23-2005 at 12:57 PM

Actually, the one I posted was Om Kolthoum, modified pitch by Amazing Slow Downer. Thank you for the clarification, oudman.

TP21

oudman - 10-23-2005 at 04:52 PM

so then in your clip she sang it sounding more like bayati.
I dont know how Sunbati composed the song, again im assuming in accordance with the song it should be kurd

sydney - 10-24-2005 at 06:34 AM

Hello,

Is it possible to assume that the band tuned up to Oum Kolthom's voice? To her comfort zone?

Just wondering !!!

al-Halabi - 10-24-2005 at 08:35 AM

Sunbati's song was composed in Kurd, but to my ears the second degree in TP21's clip sounded higher than a regular flat and closer to a low half-flat, which produced an overall sequence similar to maqam Qarjighar. I guess what we have here is a modulation to Hijaz before a return to and resolution in the base mode Kurd.
TP21, you have a good point in bringing up the intriguing modal structure of the clip. Thanks.

TruePharaoh21 - 10-24-2005 at 10:28 PM

Thank you all very much for all of the information. Why is it that we don't hear about maqam Tarznawin very often? It's a very beautiful maqam. I hate using the term "descending" as it completely limits the possibilities that one can take with it, but is it mainly a "descending" maqam?

TP21

al-Halabi - 10-25-2005 at 06:20 AM

According to the traditional melodic rules for Tarznawin, it is a descending maqam. One begins around the octave note c (kardan), playing in Hijaz on F and Hijaz on the octave c (c d flat e f) before descending to the low tetrachord Kurdi on C (rast). It also incorporates a modulation to Ajam on F and Ajam on Bb (Ajam Ashiran), by modifying the Gb to G and the Db to D . Old compositions and taqsims in this maqam follow this kind of melodic progression.

There is a long list of old maqams that are no longer played today. This is not an entirely new phenomemon. Studies of Ottoman music in the 15th-19th centuries show a big turnover in the popularity of maqams, with some disappearing from usage and new ones gaining appeal or being newly created over time.

sydney - 10-25-2005 at 12:34 PM

Hello All,

Just contacted Mr. Magdy Boulos a will know Chelo Player who played in the same band with Oum Kolthoum.

Mr. Magdy confirmed that Hagartak was composed in Kurd and the band tuned 1 tone some times 1 1/2 tone lower while playing with Oum Kolthom.

In addition, Mr. Magdy refered to the power supplied in Egypt (220 volts or less) plays a roll in the speed of cassette tapes compared to western countries where 230 - 240 volts is supplied. He said that when listenning to a song taped in Egypt here in Australia, the power will make it sound a little higher in tone which can be confusing to people wanting to study the song.

Thanks to Mr. Magdy Bolous for his time.

TruePharaoh21 - 10-25-2005 at 07:37 PM

Emad,

How did you ever get in touch with a member of Om Kolthoum's ensemble?? I can think of 3 cellists that were in her ensemble, two of which I've seen more regularly. The third usually was hidden behind Om Kolthoum. One of the other 2 would often leave his bow and pluck the strings with his finger (he had a mustache). The other was a man more advanced in age, if I remember correctly. Any chance you'd be able to tell us which of the 3 Mr. Boulos was?

Also, if you're in close contact with him, and he doesn't mind supplying you with information, can foresee that this man would be a very valuable asset to the forums, or just to musicians in general. The guy is obviously incredibly talented, regardless of which of the three he is. Please let us know.

Thanks!

TP21

TruePharaoh21 - 10-25-2005 at 10:51 PM

In case anyone was wondering, here's another part that's in Tarz Nawin (the other song I was referring to).

TP21

sydney - 10-26-2005 at 02:33 AM

Hello TP21,

No worries my dear.. I am seeing him this Sunday when he attends our church's annual concert. Actually His son Mr. Medhat Bolous and my self will be performing together in this concert. So I am sure I'll have a chat to him between parts.

A part from that... What is your comment on what Mr.Magdy said?


Cheers,

TruePharaoh21 - 10-26-2005 at 08:49 AM

sydney,

I think he's very correct in what he says. The power of 220V gives problems for many things in Egypt (I've witnessed these myself quite a number of times). I wonder what it must all sound like to him now that he hears the recordings. I bet he's said to himself many times "but we didn't sound like that when we were playing it on stage!"

Indeed, what great experiences this man must've lived through. I have several questions regarding how things used to go during rehearsals for them, but I don't think I should bombard you with a list of questions to go ask him (yet) :D.

Thanks for the info!

TP21

sydney - 10-30-2005 at 05:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by TruePharaoh21
Emad,

How did you ever get in touch with a member of Om Kolthoum's ensemble?? I can think of 3 cellists that were in her ensemble, two of which I've seen more regularly. The third usually was hidden behind Om Kolthoum. One of the other 2 would often leave his bow and pluck the strings with his finger (he had a mustache). The other was a man more advanced in age, if I remember correctly. Any chance you'd be able to tell us which of the 3 Mr. Boulos was?

Also, if you're in close contact with him, and he doesn't mind supplying you with information, can foresee that this man would be a very valuable asset to the forums, or just to musicians in general. The guy is obviously incredibly talented, regardless of which of the three he is. Please let us know.

Thanks!

TP21



Here you Go my friend ... as promised I asked Mr. Magdy Bolous and his son Medhat Bolous to take a photo of them after attending our church's annual choir.

I do not know which photo of Oum Kolthom you have but I hope you recognise Mr. Magdy Bolous. If you are still in doubt please ask our dear member Joseph Tawadros. I am sure he is more in touch with such well known musicians.

I would also like to share photo of the Choir practice with the orcestra.

Take care TP21

TruePharaoh21 - 8-7-2006 at 03:14 PM

Emad,

This guy's awesome! He's often covered by Om Kolthoum by the camera angle that they have, but he's there. I recall seeing a concert recently for Om Kolthoum in which he played one of the solos along with a violinist in the middle of a song, which led me to wonder whether he was first cellist.

But my God! That's fantastic! Thank you very much for bringing information of him to us!

TP21

TruePharaoh21 - 8-7-2006 at 04:24 PM

Hey guys,

I finally found a picture of Magdy Bolous when he was younger, just to give you guys a reference point.

http://community.webshots.com/photo/1279062/1003851326001032177HGeA...

That would be him on the left.

TP21