Mike's Oud Forums

sukar neck adjustment screw

ozeri - 2-22-2008 at 07:45 AM

I have done a lot of searching on the forum about this,however I am not quite clear about it.
Is this "screw thingy" (for lack of a better name) for an actual truss rod or something other....as in a simple way of attaching the neck itself.
Either way,I am under the impression that one can indeed adjust the neck angle with it. Is my conclusion an erroneous one?
If I can adjust it , can someone tell me the correct procedure.
- Is it best to loosen tension on the strings (as I assume)?
- Which way does the angle change when turned clockwise or
counter clockwise?
- What is the actual range of adjustment?
...not that much I would imagine
I ask all this because the action on my oud is a little high where the neck and body meet.
I am using Aquila strings from Jameel....excellent!
I wonder if I will need to make a new nut to achieve ideal action.
Thanks to all.
Ozeri

SamirCanada - 2-22-2008 at 09:46 AM

I think all it is is a neck to body attachment system.
I really doubt that there is a truss rod in there.

But try it anyway. If you notice that when you make it tighter the action goes down then do that. ( you will still need to remove the collet and soften the glue inside the neck joint.)

None the less it makes it way easy to correct the action.
From what I know you have to remove the little collet where the neck and body meet.
You will have to take the strings off at the peg side of things. otherwise you wont be able to get your hand in the sound hole to undo the screw.
You will need to use warm water to loosen the glue around the neck and body. Once it comes loose I would check if the neck to body angle is low enough.
If it has always been high then chances are that the angle at which the neck and body meet is not low enough. in this case you need to sand down the bottom of the neck as instructed in this page by dr oud.
http://www.droud.com/neck_re-set.htm

if you can without sanding anything place the neck at the perfect angle then go ahead and re glue it in that angle and find a way to keep the screw at that angle.
I would put small wood shims on one side of the screw if there is space in the hole.

ozeri - 2-24-2008 at 08:51 AM

Hey thanks Samir I appreciate this information.
I have options to think about now.

journeyman - 11-19-2008 at 07:35 AM

Has anyone actually adjusted the neck angle or action on Sukar oud using the mechanism at the base of the neck inside the oud? If so, could you give detailed instructions? Thanks.

Roy

charlie oud - 11-19-2008 at 02:48 PM

I have a fine Sukar oud. The screw is a wing nut which I have adjusted to suit my prefered action. Tighten to lower the action. Loosen to higher the action. It is not a truss rod. Truss rods do not adjust action anyway, they prevent warping. The Sukar mechanism is similar to that which can be found in leg or caster arrangements found in beds, tables and settees. A threaded rod which extends from within the neck, through the neck block and into the body space is housed in an insert within the neck. The neck is not glued to the instrument. The wing nut allows the string tension to pull the neck to an action of your choosing. If you prefer a higher action do not be alarmed by the appearance of a small gap at the back of the neck joint because the mechanism is very secure and this gap is normal if you require a higher tilt. It is an excellent device and if you search this forum for problems with high action you will wonder why makers do not fit this as standard. You will only need to loosen the strings enough to get your hand in to turn the nut. You need not fear if the nut is completely loose there is no danger of the neck coming off. A completely loose wing nut gives you the highest action possible. As soon as the nut is only just hand tight a lower action is set. From there you can tighten a little at a time until you have your perfect action. Wonderful, I assure you. Regards C.

journeyman - 11-19-2008 at 08:28 PM

Thanks Charlie Oud. I'll try this tomorrow and post again.

Roy

journeyman - 11-20-2008 at 08:32 PM

Well I tried loosening the wing nut on my Sukar oud to bring the action up a little and it worked just fine. At first nothing seemed to change but I decided to leave it for the day. When I came home later the action was just a little higher and the buzzing that I was getting near the nut was gone. This is my first Sukar and so far I'm really loving it. It has the sound I have been looking for and the workmanship is great. It is model #11. I have seen other Sukar ouds and the finish work was a bit rough, but this one is really nice. Perhaps the pricing reflects the materials used and the time invested in construction. True, the design features of the top might not be the most pleasing,, but I've already gotten used to the open oval sound holes and I'm just thrilled with the way it sounds and feels, and...it was purchased used for a very affordable price. But I digress, and wanted to say that the instructions that Charlie Oud posted for the Sukar neck adjustment seem to be correct. Thanks.

Roy

charlie oud - 11-21-2008 at 12:30 AM

Hey Roy, Im glad you are enjoying your Sukar. I know you are a fine player (remember?, you sent me a sound clip a while back). I too warm to Sukar's open sound , it seems to give a lot to the tone, the body becomes fully utilised as a sound chamber. Yeah, Sukar does'nt go for the "decorative" stuff, but his ouds have a simple raw beauty, sonority and soul. Shehata, I believe also maintains these qualities. Best. C

Christian1095 - 11-21-2008 at 07:49 AM

I've also done the neck action thing on both my Sukar ouds...

Charlie, I'm right there with you about the quality and tone.... I love my oud..

charlie oud - 11-21-2008 at 10:04 AM

Thats great Chris, I wish Sukar spoke/read English, I'm sure he would appreciate our comments. C

samzayed - 2-14-2009 at 03:38 PM

Can anyone advice how much turning is needed? For example, should I turn 1/4 at a time, then check the action? Or, does it require more turning?

Reda Aouad - 2-14-2009 at 09:40 PM

Hi Guys.

I have the same problem.. a very high action which is unpleasant. This picture is taken from inside my oud. Is this screw the one you are talking about? I thought it would change the angle of the neck.. but I was afraid of turning it. Im sure it doesn't turn by hand. Do I need a special driver? There is not much room for any driver to turn inside..

I would really appreciate it if anyone could help me since Im suffering from the high action.

Thanks :)

Reda Aouad - 2-14-2009 at 09:40 PM

I forgot the picture.. here it is..

charlie oud - 2-14-2009 at 11:30 PM

Hi Reda, Yes thats it. Mine is a wing nut which is easier to turn by hand. With yours you may need to use a spanner or a pair of pliers or grips if it wont turn by hand. Do not be afraid. Make sure you engage on the nut firmly and take care not to come into contact with the underside of the sound board. Then turn it clockwise about a quarter to a half turn. Then check the action. Repeat this process until the action is how you like it. C.

Reda Aouad - 2-14-2009 at 11:42 PM

Thanks :) That's great news.. I will definitely try it in the coming days. But just a small question.. to engage on the nut firmly you mean to push the neck backwards by pressing on the nut?
Thanks again :)

Reda Aouad - 2-15-2009 at 12:01 AM

One more thing.. I have an extended ebony fingerboard. Is it safe to adjust the neck? Will it bend with it without cracking or something?

And by the way.. My Oud is not a Sukkar one.. It's Georges Bitar (Lebanon). You can see in the picture the high action and why Im having a hard time playing it..

charlie oud - 2-15-2009 at 12:17 AM

STOP !!!. Sorry reda, I assumed you were talking about a Sukar oud ( I wondered why the nut was different to mine). Ignore my instruction for now as I do not know if it is correct for your oud. You could try mailing the maker or Richard Hankey (Dr Oud on the forum, contact details on members list I think). He is very helpful and may advise you. If it is the same by engaging firmly I mean the grip of any tool on the nut so it does not slip off the nut as you turn it. C

Reda Aouad - 2-15-2009 at 12:21 AM

Just when I was getting some hope to fix it :S
I'll try to contact him and give him the link for this thread..
Thanks anyway..

charlie oud - 2-15-2009 at 12:29 AM

Keep the hope, It maybe the same mechanism as Sukar uses, if so, you can do as I said. In fact I cannot think of any other reason for a maker to put a nut there. I just wanted to avoid wrongly advising you. C

Dr. Oud - 2-15-2009 at 02:40 PM

I am not familiar with Georges Bitar's purpose for the nut at the end of the neck. It may be simply the means to hold the neck in place, not necessarily an adjustment. It would be best if you ask the maker if you can, otherwise try to loosen the nut first (counterclockwise) and notice the result. You must use a socket wrench to get a secure grip on the nut and control the turn precisely to avoid damaging the face around the sound hole. I would suggest doing it with the strings on to see if there is a change in the action. If no change is noticeable, it is an attachment screw, not an adjustment. In this case you need to loosen the neck and insert a thin shim to correct the angle. You mentioned that the fingerboard is extended - is there a seam at the neck/body joint? If so the shim would work fine. If not, the fingerboard should be removed before loosening the nut, then replaced after. A slight angle at the neck joint should not be a problem. The ideal height at the neck joint is 3-5mm.

samzayed - 2-16-2009 at 08:57 PM

Charlie Oud/Journeyman (or anyone one else who is familiar with the Sukar adjustable action)

I recently got my hands on a Sukar oud, and my action is a little higher than desired. I am planning on tightening the nut inside the bowl. I was wondering is there a point where it can be too tight causing damage to the oud? For example, with a truss rod, you can damage the neck if you over tighten the screw... I know this is not a truss rod, but I was wondering if there is also a point where it can cause damage...

Many thanks...

charlie oud - 2-17-2009 at 06:21 AM

Hi Samzayed,

I'm unsure if the nut would damage the oud if it were very tight, my guess is that it would'nt but I would'nt recommend trying. "Hand tight" to the point where it is difficult tighten any further will be fine, lets say, so it can still be loosened without requiring a strong person or a tool. Ive only my own Sukar to go by, so Im no expert but my action lowered easily without requiring excessive tightening. As soon as the nut was firm to the turn, the action lowered considerably with barely a half turn more. Go easy and check action after each quarter turn, eighth turn as you get near the action you want, best done with strings on and at pitch if you can get your hand in and out. If not loosen only a course or two to enable this. Hope you have the same out come as me. Good luck. Charlie.

samzayed - 2-17-2009 at 08:25 AM

Thanks! This helps a lot!!

Reda Aouad - 2-17-2009 at 09:23 AM

Dr. Oud!!! I must say you are a life saver :)

Well.. I didn't know what the nut inside the oud was for.. but I said let me give it a try. I used a socket wrench with a long extension and turned it counter-clockwise at first and the action got a little bit higher. So I turned it clockwise.. and it took quite some force to do it.. and kept on turning in small increments until I got a very low action.. Although I was very afraid of damaging the oud. But I can tell by now that it is much much much better as I used to have a very high action.. Im much more comfortable now and my playing is a lot easier, faster and smoother.

I really appreciate it Dr. Oud :) Thank you very much for the help..
Quote:
I am not familiar with Georges Bitar's purpose for the nut at the end of the neck. It may be simply the means to hold the neck in place, not necessarily an adjustment. It would be best if you ask the maker if you can, otherwise try to loosen the nut first (counterclockwise) and notice the result. You must use a socket wrench to get a secure grip on the nut and control the turn precisely to avoid damaging the face around the sound hole. I would suggest doing it with the strings on to see if there is a change in the action. If no change is noticeable, it is an attachment screw, not an adjustment. In this case you need to loosen the neck and insert a thin shim to correct the angle. You mentioned that the fingerboard is extended - is there a seam at the neck/body joint? If so the shim would work fine. If not, the fingerboard should be removed before loosening the nut, then replaced after. A slight angle at the neck joint should not be a problem. The ideal height at the neck joint is 3-5mm.

Marcus - 6-4-2013 at 04:53 AM

Quote: Originally posted by samzayed  
Can anyone advice how much turning is needed? For example, should I turn 1/4 at a time, then check the action? Or, does it require more turning?


Hi fellow oudies :wavey:

As I`m getting used to a very low action on my JT signature oud by Veysel Sarikus, I really need to lower the action on my Sukar!!

Can anybody answer this old question,pleeeeease:rolleyes:

Cheers

Marcus

Marcus - 6-4-2013 at 09:58 PM

Is there nobody who can answer?

SamirCanada - 6-5-2013 at 05:16 AM

Hi Markus,
Take a look at my site to see the inner workings of a sukar neck setup. http://samirnassifoudluthiery.blogspot.ca/#!/2010/08/when-sukar-oud...

Here is is the way I do it.

-Remove all the strings execpt the 6th course and 1st course. However, reduce the tension on the remaining courses so they dont pull too much.This will alow you to get your hand in there while still being able to see the action height approximately.

-Start unwinding the nut a little bit. Press on the neck near the nut going backwards to see if that lowers the action. In my experience there is a little bit of glue which holds the neck that should be removed to properly lower the action. I have broken the glue seal by simply pressing back to lower the action or sometimes you can try to heat up that general area to help soften the glue. Its a bit tricky because you dont want to ruin the finish so you cant heat it up that much.

-once that seal is broken you can manipulate the neck as you wish, you can then adjust the action back and lock it in place. You can add some more glue to reset it in place if you wish.

Warning again: reseting the neck on the Sukar will require some knowlege of fingerboard leveling/filling. this is because it is made in 2 pieces most of the time so there could be a gap or it could be unleveled after the adjustement. If your oud has a one piece fingerboard I am not sure this method will work.

fernandraynaud - 6-5-2013 at 10:11 AM

The important thing is not to go further than finger tight when you are turning the butterfly nut (or plain nut) clockwise.

If you do use tools, use good judgement to not exceed finger tight. This is because two things can happen if you go too far:

1) you can strip the threads on the rod, much as on a truss rod.

2) you can break the little nail whose head protrudes on the back of the neck. That little nail goes through a hole in the threaded rod and prevents it from moving. If you break it, the rod both spins and moves in and out. The action will rise as it no longer holds the neck back against the string tension, and of course it no longer does anything in adjusting the neck. A sometimes very tricky repair will be required.

If the neck is not restrained by any glue, you can make adjustments even without loosening the strings. I have relatively small hands. If yours are too big, just loosen the bass bam string.

Then wiggle your hand past the bam string and reach the butterfly nut. It's very helpful to start by raising the action, just to confirm that it works. UN-screw the nut (counter-clockwise) say a quarter turn, and the neck will tilt forward, raising the action. You can pull the neck gently and confirm that this lowers the action. I always apply a little backwards pull to the neck while making any adjustment, so that the nut/rod are not taking all the stress, same as when you adjust the truss rod on a guitar. You can feel when the pressure is lessened on the nut.

When you've seen the action go up, it's time to go the other way. As long as you don't exceed finger tight, you won't hurt a thing. It's especially important to pull back gently on the neck when you tighten, particularly if you still have the strings on the oud, as their tension is applying considerable force against the mechanism, so by relieving some of that tension you "float" the nut and make it much easier to adjust. You might be able to see the gap in the fingerboard at the junction minutely open as you tighten, but I've never felt the very slight change in angle affect the playability high up on the fingerboard.

Once you've reached full finger tightness clockwise, that's as far as she goes. You will NOT get it any lower by forcing. It CANNOT, because the mating faces (that on the neck and the one on the end-block) are now pulled against each other and that's as far as they can go.

[file]26938[/file]

If it's not going down low enough for you, you will need to familiarize yourself with exactly how it works and do some more work on it, most likely pulling the neck off and filing/sanding the mating surfaces so that the neck can tilt further back as you tighten the nut, thus lowering the action further. There may be ways without actually pulling the neck, but the decorative ring that covers the gap on the back side of the neck-body junction is in the way. Maybe Samir knows some tricks.



SamirCanada - 6-5-2013 at 10:38 AM

I think the main point is, its not as easy as tightening the bolt in there. And please dont overtighten with tools etc as our friend pointed out above.

Sorry, I dont have any magic tricks Fernand :)
As you said, if its as low as she goes then some work needs to be done like removing the rign, altering the mating surfaces etc... at that point its also easier to plane down the fingerboard if possible.

You say there is no glue in there. I have done this with 3 or 4 sukar ouds. It think for the most part there was always a faint layer of glue on the mating surfaces. Generally it came apart with light prying of the neck and then POP!

Marcus - 6-5-2013 at 10:18 PM

Hi Samir+ fernand (Tony) :wavey:

first, thank you for your explanations!!!!

To be honest, they unsettle me a bit:( I thought it is easier and not so "risky" to do it.

Maybe it`ll be better for me to leave it like it is and try to get used to the higher action again. I was fine with it when the Sukar was my "first" oud. Surely it`ll make my left hand stronger again:D

Thanks again + all the best for you guys!

Marcus

fernandraynaud - 6-6-2013 at 05:15 PM

Oh, no, don't suffer. It's not risky at all. I change the action on my Sukars pretty regularly, just for the different timbre. You don't need to take anything apart. You don't even need to loosen the strings. Just slip that hand in there. If you have a plain nut instead of a wing-nut you can safely use a little wrench. Just don't go to the garage and fetch a big-ass automotive wrench and apply gorilla torque to it. You'll see if you have any margin or if it's already as tight as it will go. It does help to start with loosening, it gives you a good idea of what's there and helps break any glue drops. Then try hand-tightening all the way while pulling back on the neck. You might gain a millimeter or more on the action with only a few minutes' work.