Mike's Oud Forums

For String Experimenters...

freya - 10-25-2008 at 04:42 PM

You may find this interesting:

http://www.guitar-vacation-retreats.com/resources/fluorocarbon_stri...

I got reels of 0.52mm, 0.57mm, 0.62mm and 0.66mm Seaguar Fluoro Premier and have been guite happy - good tone, excellent intonation, and good tuning stablity (once they stretch out). If you're a string experimenter (in the US for shipping reasons) drop me U2U and I may be able to send a few of you a set at my cost.

Harry

rojaros - 11-4-2008 at 11:26 AM

Thanks for that hint - strings are an endless isue (like reeds for sax players) and it's great to have a source of pricey string material.

On guitar flour carbon strings can sometimes give a greater brightness of the tone and the tone is more shapeable.

I'm very cuirious to try it out on Oud...

best wishes
Robert

rojaros - 1-18-2010 at 11:51 PM

Hi there, finally i had to change strings and used those one that you had sent me quite a while back.

I can confirm that these string material seaguar flouro premium is excellent -
as described. Thanks a lot again ...
Quote: Originally posted by rojaros  
Thanks for that hint - strings are an endless isue (like reeds for sax players) and it's great to have a source of pricey string material.

On guitar flour carbon strings can sometimes give a greater brightness of the tone and the tone is more shapeable.

I'm very cuirious to try it out on Oud...

best wishes
Robert

rojaros - 2-5-2010 at 12:28 AM

Hi everybody - I now got a reel of 0.52 fluorocarbon string by SUFIX Invisiline - also a very good material for strings (in Germany it's almost impossible to get Seaguar).

best wishes
Robert

Aymara - 2-6-2010 at 12:24 AM

Quote: Originally posted by rojaros  
in Germany it's almost impossible to get Seaguar


Just google for "Fluorocarbon Schnur" and you'll find tons of german online shops, who sell fluorocarbon fishing lines of different brands, incl. Seaguar ... but you're right, it's mainly different brands. But I think every good local fishing shop should be able to order Seaguar for their customers.

But why not order Kuerschner strings ... he also has fluorcarbon trebbles as an alternative to nylon and gut.

Sazi - 2-6-2010 at 01:14 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Aymara  


But why not order Kuerschner strings ... he also has fluorcarbon trebbles as an alternative to nylon and gut.


Maybe if you compare the length of the fishing line on a reel and then compare how much it would cost to buy enough strings to make the same length you might answer your own question;)

Aymara - 2-6-2010 at 01:44 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Sazi  
... compare how much it would cost ...


How many ouds do you want to string? :rolleyes:

Sazi - 2-6-2010 at 02:55 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Aymara  


How many ouds do you want to string? :rolleyes:


I would think that if you own a few ouds (and who doesn't) then the prospect of getting a life-time supply of strings for a once only relatively low outlay would be a Good Thing don't you agree?

Aymara - 2-7-2010 at 12:23 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Sazi  
... don't you agree?


Many will, I don't. First I'm not an oud-collector ... my maximum would be 3 ... a fixed bridge, a floating bridge and an electric oud.

Second I'm not the type of guy, who pays thousands of dollars for good ouds and saves when buying strings. In my opinion this is similar to the hobby photographers, who buy expensive digital SLRs and combine them with cheap lenses. So I prefer Kuerschner, who manufactures strings especially for my oud's dimensions.

No offense intended! ... it's just my personal opinion.

Sazi - 2-7-2010 at 12:41 AM

No offence to me, I have only 3 ouds and buy expensive Pyramid and Savarez custom guage lute strings to suit my own personal taste :)

jdowning - 2-7-2010 at 06:35 AM

To date, I have only used Pyramid PVF trebles and they are good quality but quite expensive ranging from $ 3.2 to $4.7 (plus shipping and handling) for a diameter range from 0.33 mm to 0.8 mm and length 1.15 metre.

Checking out the Seaguar Fluorocarbon leaders, the Premier grade - coming in 25 metre coils - works out at from about 50 cents to about $1.30 per metre (plus shipping and handling if applicable). The diameter range is 0.370, 0.405, 0.470, 0.570, 0.620, 0.700, and 0.780 mm so does not cover the diameter range as extensively as the Pyramid strings.
However, the Seaguar Blue Label Leaders (that now come in 5 yard coils as well as 25 metre) are almost half the price of the Premier leaders and cover a diameter range of 0.330, 0.405, 0.435, 0.520, 0.620, 0.660, 0.740 and 0.810 which extends the choice of diameters close to those offered by Pyramid. Other manufacturers of fluorocarbon fishing leaders likely offer further diameter variations within the same range. Whether or not these would be good for instrument strings would need to be tested.

I have not tried fluorocarbon fishing leaders as instrument strings but would be interested to know how they might differ (if at all) in composition, structure and dimensional accuracy from the strings offered by instrument string suppliers. As I understand it fluorocarbon strings are of laminated construction made by an extrusion process and I would have to suppose that there are not too many manufacturers specialising in this type of string worldwide?
I may be wrong but suspect that the instrument string suppliers do not make their fluorocarbon strings (or nylon for that matter - although they may 'rectify' or polish the raw strings obtained from other manufacturers).
If this is the case, I wonder who makes the fluorocarbon strings sold by the instrument string suppliers - companies like Seaguar? After all a huge market world wide for these strings would be for anglers and 'sports' fishermen - not for musical instruments, a tiny market by comparison.

Aymara - 2-7-2010 at 08:32 AM

Quote: Originally posted by jdowning  
... but would be interested to know how they might differ ...


You might find further information in accoustic guitar forums, where these fishing lines were discussed for a long time.

jdowning - 2-7-2010 at 09:31 AM

I might Aymara but do you know for sure if my question has ever been previously researched and answered by the guitarists - i.e. how the construction, composition and dimensional accuracy of the fluorocarbon fishing lines might differ (if at all) from the fluorocarbon instrument strings?

Aymara - 2-7-2010 at 11:10 AM

Quote: Originally posted by jdowning  
... do you know for sure if my question has ever been previously researched and answered by the guitarists ...


No, I don't, but they are discussing it much longer than oudists, so I thought, the chances for answers might be better there.

freya - 2-7-2010 at 12:45 PM

The original pointer is no longer valid but some of that material relating to construction details and comparison to commercial instrument strings was reposted here:
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=9942&pa...

jdowning - 2-7-2010 at 01:15 PM

Thanks Aymara and freya - I must have overlooked that thread for some reason.
Will look into the possibilities further based on that information and possibly run some tests of my own - if I can find a local sports shop that sells the fluorocarbon leaders as I am sure that there must be one.

rojaros - 2-7-2010 at 01:45 PM

You're right, it's not difficult to get fluorocarbon fishing lines per sé, but not Seaguar. The biggest fishing shop in my town didn't even know the name Seaguar.

The problem with other brands is that they have reportedly problems with thickness calibration, which translates into pitch problems along the string (unequal pitches in pairs). As far as it is reported, no such problems seem to occure with the Seaguar Premium line (though it does with the cheaper lies of seaguar).

As I wrote, I just got a wheel of Sufix Invisiline Premium line 0.52 und put it on my classical guitar with very good result.

It is certainly much cheaper to buy the strings on wheels than to buy (probabely same material) as branded strings - if you have set your mind on using the same trebles for longer time...

best wishes
Robert
Quote: Originally posted by Aymara  
Quote: Originally posted by rojaros  
in Germany it's almost impossible to get Seaguar


Just google for "Fluorocarbon Schnur" and you'll find tons of german online shops, who sell fluorocarbon fishing lines of different brands, incl. Seaguar ... but you're right, it's mainly different brands. But I think every good local fishing shop should be able to order Seaguar for their customers.

But why not order Kuerschner strings ... he also has fluorcarbon trebbles as an alternative to nylon and gut.

Aymara - 2-8-2010 at 09:45 AM

Quote: Originally posted by rojaros  
You're right, it's not difficult to get fluorocarbon fishing lines per sé, but not Seaguar. The biggest fishing shop in my town didn't even know the name Seaguar.


It might be problematic with local shops, but using Google I found THIS dealer at once.

Maybe that helps.

jdowning - 2-9-2010 at 01:41 PM

I have now had time to read the excerpt from the guitar forum ("Beyond Nylon: Fluorocarbon") which contains some useful, 'hands on' experience in the use of 'PVF' musical instrument strings as well as Seaguar fishing leaders. As I read the excerpt, the reported problems with string delamination and bad intonation seem to be restricted to fluorocarbon strings from Savarez Alliance, Oasis and Galli Carbonios. The problem apparently is that these strings are of polyfilament construction (made up from twisted individual fibres like a gut or silk string I assume?) - but exactly how they are made is not explained further.

The Seaguar leaders on the other hand are made by a unique extrusion process resulting in a hard resin core covered by a softer resin sleeve. This double structure combines the resin components into a solid piece that , according to Seaguar, cannot separate - unlike lines made by a layering or coating process. In other words they are equivalent to a monofilament structure.

I have used Pyramid PVF strings for a number of years on lutes and have never encountered any problems with delamination (or bad intonation) - and they seem to last 'forever'. The strings appear to be of a monofilament structure.
However, on a lute the strings are plucked with fingertips and not a hard plectrum (or hard nails of a classical guitarist). Also string tensions are about half of those used on a classical guitar (or modern oud?).


Aymara - 2-9-2010 at 01:49 PM

Quote: Originally posted by jdowning  
Also string tensions are about half of those used on a classical guitar (or modern oud?).


Really? I would have expected the tensions of oud and lute strings to be very similar ... was I so wrong?

jdowning - 2-10-2010 at 01:32 PM

Well I am not sure about that either.
I have the impression, however, that oud string tension is generally higher than is found on a 'built to historical standards' lute (i.e. copies of original instruments of the 16th/17th C). The string tensions may not seem significantly higher for an oud but - in my experience at least - can make the difference between a lute being 'playable' or not when using historically correct right hand finger techniques where the soft fingertips pluck a string and not the fingernails of a classical guitarist.
It may not have been the case in the 1960's when the first 'lutes' of the modern revival were heavily built with high tension stringing - designed for guitarists wanting to perform the vast surviving repertoire for lute (and related instruments) not on a classical guitar but on an instrument that at least 'looked the part' (but was not otherwise built to any historical standards) and so did not require a change in their classical guitar playing technique. While these instruments may now be 'passe' they did serve - in the hands of virtuoso players like Julian Bream - to promote a great interest in the modern day revival of the lute.

So what are the comparative string tensions between a lute and modern oud? I suppose that much depends upon the instrument, tuning, player preference, playing technique string material and the make of string.
For example a six double course Renaissance lute - 60 cm string length with octave tuned basses - the string tensions using modern nylon and metal overspun strings, 'g' tuning at A440 modern concert pitch might typically be:
g' 3.5 Kg
d' 3.3 Kg
a 2.8 Kg
f 2.8 Kg
c 2.8 Kg
c' 2.6 Kg
c 2.8 Kg
G 2.8 Kg
g 2.6 Kg
(source Pyramid Strings)
This is about the range of string tension that I use (with modern strings) with perhaps a slightly higher tension for a single treble g' string.

How about a modern oud such as a Bashir style floating bridge oud? String tension 4 to 5 Kg (or more) throughout perhaps? Not a problem for plectrum style playing no doubt but pretty hopeless on a lute when using a traditional right hand technique.

Aymara - 2-11-2010 at 07:53 AM

Quote: Originally posted by jdowning  
... historically correct right hand finger techniques where the soft fingertips pluck a string and not the fingernails ...


I personally like this technique on the oud too and use it much ... I like this warm sound.
Quote:

How about a modern oud such as a Bashir style floating bridge oud? String tension 4 to 5 Kg (or more) throughout perhaps?


Isn't the average something around 3.5kg? 4-5kg seems extreme to me ... or am I that wrong?

jdowning - 2-12-2010 at 05:58 AM

The Seaguar company FAQ provides a bit more information about their fluorocarbon fishing line products.
The leaders differ from their lines in that the lines are made from a single resin of lower tensile strength whereas the leaders use two different types of resin extruded as a double structure - both types are monofilament. Seaguar make their own resins for lines and leaders (no other companies do) and they do not sell their resins to other companies for making lines and leaders. No other companies make double structure leaders.

Presumably, Kureha (the parent company of Seaguar) do sell their resins (and standard size lines?) to companies for other uses (such as instrument string making)?
It is interesting to note that of the 24 diameters of PVF strings offered by 'Pyramid'
10 diameters match exactly the diameters of the Seaguar leaders (and fishing leaders made by other companies might provide the other diameters?) This does not mean to say that 'Pyramid' use fishing leaders as their basis for PVF lute strings but does suggest that their may be some kind of manufacturing standard for each company dictating the extrusion die size.

If the exact diameters required are not available to the string makers their solution might be to 'rectify' stock diameters of PVF strings by the same process used to 'rectify' plain nylon strings? Rectification- because it is an additional procedure - adds to the cost of a string.
Nylon strings are 'rectified' (I assume) by a 'centreless' grinding process to produce a perfectly cylindrical string of exact diameter (i.e. to closer tolerances than can be achieved by the extrusion process). Typically - because it is a finishing process - only a few thousands of an inch would be removed from a string diameter (although heavier stock removal is also possible if required).
Centreless grinding is a familiar process in engineering where it is used as a production finishing process for hardened steel shafts and other long cylindrical objects. The string grinding equipment works on a similar principle and would seem to be a tool that might be fairly straightforward for a craftsman to make.
For those interested, luthier and historical string maker Dan Larson describes the tool and its (non historical) application for 'rectifying' gut strings at:

http://www.daniellarson.com/article.htm

Aymara - 2-13-2010 at 12:03 AM

Quote: Originally posted by jdowning  

For those interested, ...


Thanks ... interesting ... but loooong ;)