Mike's Oud Forums

need advice for a recorder

suz_i_dil - 1-26-2009 at 01:42 PM

Hello
I am thinking to get a numeric recorder, looking to get around 3 tracks recordable, incorporated mics would be nice.
I have thought of the Zoom H4 and of the Boss BR 600.

Did you tried those, and how did you found the results for an acoustic recording?
Do you have any others to advice?

Thanks for your help.

Brian Prunka - 1-26-2009 at 04:50 PM

I like the H4. I haven't tried the Boss.

here's a clip I recorded with the H4:

http://mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=8262

I've used it a lot on gigs, etc. and it always sounds good.

the construction doesn't seem super-duper solid, but so far I haven't had any problems. I got it when it first came out, about 2 years ago.

suz_i_dil - 1-27-2009 at 05:53 AM

Thank you for your message, indeed very good sound to my usual standard of recording...out of this well inspirated takasim...:)

Did you find this recorder easy to use, for exemple to record one track in two or more sessions, or to record a second track on the first one?

Brian Prunka - 1-27-2009 at 07:29 AM

I've never used the multi-tracking ability of the recorder itself . . . I'm not usually making multi-track recordings.
It comes with Cubase LE software, and you can record directly to your computer with it Cubase if you want. I've used it that way and it was very easy. You can also use it to record in Garageband if you have a Mac, or most other recording programs as well (though not Protools, I don't think).

The device is pretty easy to use overall, but I've definitely had to refer to the manual occasionally for things that were not intuitive. If I was going to record multiple tracks I would have to consult the instructions for doing that.

suz_i_dil - 1-27-2009 at 10:14 AM

Anyway, I will see.
Thank you for taking the time to answer..and very good surprise by the way, I was not awaiting such a quality of sound.

eliot - 1-27-2009 at 07:35 PM

The new Zoom H4n is supposed to maintain all the good features and up the sound quality substantially. It should be out within a couple of weeks, if it's not already available. Street price <$400.

rojaros - 2-16-2009 at 10:52 PM

Hello, I'm using and loving the Zoom H2 -it's versatile, has 4 Mics and many recording formats; a sound quality that is more than good enough (I have a lot of professional equipment too and I can tell you, you need to go through some serious work to have recordings much better than the zoom H2 does, especially if you're working and playing alone at the same time...)

Also it handles memory cards up to 32 GB ! (As I saw confired on the H2 compatbility page). It works with generic batteries or accumulators and has a quiet power suply that doesn't hum.

One button and then go - very convenient. (No worry, I'm not a salesman from ZOOm Corp. ;-)) It's just cool and not too expensive.
Quote:
Originally posted by suz_i_dil
Hello
I am thinking to get a numeric recorder, looking to get around 3 tracks recordable, incorporated mics would be nice.
I have thought of the Zoom H4 and of the Boss BR 600.

Did you tried those, and how did you found the results for an acoustic recording?
Do you have any others to advice?

Thanks for your help.

francis - 2-17-2009 at 02:46 AM

I recently bought a zoomH2 recorder and I'm very satisfied with it. A good compromise between quality and price.
Last sateday I recorded a 3 hours session in a bar , putting it in the middle of the players with the 180° mics and the result is fine.
Si tu veux faire un saut jusqu'à Saintes, je peux te le prêter pour que tu essayes .....
Francis

suz_i_dil - 2-17-2009 at 09:20 AM

Merci pour l'invitation Francis, j'aurais bien l'occasion de passer par Saintes un de ces jours. Dommage de s'etre ainsi manqués sur Bordeaux, je ferais plus attention à mes messages desormais.
I finally choosed a zoom H4, and totally enjoy its quality of recording. I guess the H2 is near from it.
Regards

rojaros - 2-20-2009 at 10:34 AM

PS from what I gather from the internet the h4 is not really better soundwise and less versatile.Almost everybody says that Zoom didn't do any good service to the h4 by releasing the h2 almost at the same time, because the smaller one is at least as good as the big one.

The difference is that you can use the h4 with other pairs of mics, but why would you want to buy a pocet recorder to that?
If I want to do a proper recording I bring the proper equipment, or else I want to have a 'no brainer' recording and that's what the H2 is perfect for.

Best wishes
Robert

suz_i_dil - 2-20-2009 at 11:30 AM

I didn't know about. Anyway, I'm satisfied with it for the use I was looking for.
Thank you for your precision, it may interest others members who are looking for a recorder.
Regards

Reda Aouad - 4-27-2009 at 04:39 PM

Sounds interesting! I just ordered the new Zoom H4n.. I am pretty excited after what you said and impatient to get it.. especially after listening to that lovely taqsim from Brian :applause:

Will update you soon..

jdowning - 5-2-2009 at 09:22 AM

I have just ordered a Zoom H2 based on favourable reviews and comments. The recorder seems to be the equivalent of a 'point and shoot' digital camera - uncomplicated so that you don't need to be a trained recording engineer to get good results from it which is what I am looking for. The price of under $200 US seems reasonable as well.
A local newspaper reporter that I met yesterday uses an H2 for interviews and recording of music and spoke highly of it.

Reda Aouad - 5-2-2009 at 09:47 AM

The H4n exceeded all my expectations!

I have previously worked in professional studios with professional equipments, and I can tell you may get a slightly better sound with equipment worth tens of thousands of dollars. But this recorder is worth everything you spend on! It's priced now at 350$.. So far I just tried it's quick recording option.. and the sound is amazing, even in my room with some noises always in the background. It's making me love my instrument even more :)

I don't know about the other Samson Zoom recorders (H2 and H4) but I expect very similar results. What do you say jdowning?

I definitely recommend it for anyone who wants a professional recorder - with so many options which I didn't explore yet.. If you have the budget just go for it!

I will post some recording soon in the members' clips forum..

jdowning - 5-2-2009 at 12:10 PM

The recorder was ordered this morning so hope to receive it in about a week's time Reda Aouad - so will post my opinion about the unit later after a few trials.
The local newspaper reporter used a Zoom H2 to record an interview about my instrument making work. An audio of the interview - including still images and sound clips of lute performance - will be posted as an article on the newspaper website. If the results are judged to be favourable, I shall provide a link for those who may be interested - if they are not, I won't!
I want to use the H2 to record personal practice sessions in order to critically evaluate my playing technique etc. - hopefully, leading to improvement.

jdowning - 5-6-2009 at 02:19 PM

The H2 arrived this morning so I have been able to carry out a few preliminary trials - but am still very much on a 'learning curve'. First impressions are favourable although I have no experience to enable comparison of this unit with more costly professional grade digital recorders. All that I can say is that this is a world of difference from past futile, amateur attempts to record acceptable audio on consumer grade stereo cassette recorders or earlier reel to reel tape recorders!
The audio is high fidelity - to my ear, faithfully rendering the subtle resonances of a lute - as well as imperfections like buzzing on the frets, right hand fingertip noise etc. - which is just what I am looking for in using the H2 for critical evaluation leading - hopefully - to eventual performance improvement.

The H2 is well made and comes bundled with a range of accessories including an AC power supply to eliminate need for batteries when used indoors. User manuals are provided in three languages - English, French and Spanish.
The recorder has a comprehensive but easy to follow menu giving ready access to all of the facilities.
My first action, after formatting the included SD memory card, was to download the latest firmware update from the Samson Zoom web site - a straightforward operation.
The first sample test recording of files in stereo and quad were successfully downloaded to my PC (using the supplied USB cable) but - although they sounded OK on playback with the H2, (using the supplied stereo earbud headphones) - were inadequate in volume for playback on the PC. However, using the H2 'normalizing' feature, the sound levels were maximised without distortion, to correct this problem.
Many features have yet to be tested - such as the chromatic tuner and metronome - but looking good so far. High fidelity audio on a budget.

Reda Aouad - 5-6-2009 at 02:33 PM

Hi jdowning.

You're right.. It's a digital recorder with condenser microphones, which are very sensitive to even the most minute changes in sound pressure. Thus the high fidelity, which I am also benefiting from to try to reduce finger scratching and such after I listen to my recordings over and over again.

As for your recording level, you shouldn't normalize it to have an acceptable volume for playability. I think what you should do is increase the microphones' gain and move the recorder closer to the instrument, but not too close or you'll have what is called the "proximity effect", by which the bass frequencies tend to be much accentuated. So you should do several tests with different combinations of gain and distance from the instrument in order to find the optimal position (the "sweet spot") and gain setting to have a good recording. I am personally against any processing of the recorded sound, like compressing and normalizing and such, which will reduce the fidelity of the sound and change it's characteristics. Maybe only a bit of reverberation would make the sound sweeter.

I am not that much of a professional in audio, but have had some good experience in recording, editing and mixing. Please let me know if you need any kind of help..

Please try to post some recordings when you are satisfied with your recording technique.

Good Luck :)

Brian Prunka - 5-6-2009 at 10:15 PM

While "compression" of the the sound in order to increase perceived volume has potential negative effects on the sound, "normalization" does not.
Normalizing merely increases the loudness of the entire track so that the peak volume is as high as possible without distortion (without changing any relative dynamics).
While it is still more desirable to simply record at the proper levels as Reda suggests (proper initial recording levels result in greater fidelity), normalization is a good way to correct a track that was unintentionally recorded too low.

jdowning - 5-7-2009 at 04:02 AM

Brian Prunka is correct about the normalising feature - the processing of the sound track being accomplished on the H2 at the press of a button.

I have had no training in recording technology so this is new uncharted territory for me so it will be interesting to see what can be accomplished by a novice using this device. I shall carry out further testing of microphone gain vs distance as Reda advises as well as comparing results with microphone configuration, recording environment and various file format/sampling frequency settings. I shall also be trying a low cost (about $10 US) 4GB SDHC card. There seems to be some uncertainty about the capacity of cards that will work. Samson have successfully tested some brands of SDHC cards up to 32GB. I don't expect to have problems with the 4GB card, however.
If I succeed in making a reasonable recording, will post the results for information and comparison.

Reda Aouad - 5-7-2009 at 04:04 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Brian Prunka
While "compression" of the the sound in order to increase perceived volume has potential negative effects on the sound, "normalization" does not.
Normalizing merely increases the loudness of the entire track so that the peak volume is as high as possible without distortion (without changing any relative dynamics).
While it is still more desirable to simply record at the proper levels as Reda suggests (proper initial recording levels result in greater fidelity), normalization is a good way to correct a track that was unintentionally recorded too low.


I agree. But normalization decreases the SNR (signal-to-noise ratio), which increases the noise when playing back. Recording in a proper way, or at least trying to, will increase the signal-to-noise ratio, which means that you get more instrument volume and less noise with respect to each other.

Brian Prunka - 5-7-2009 at 01:20 PM

I guess it depends on what you're comparing.

Normalizing does not change the S/N of a track that's already recorded, and from a practical standpoint you might have a perceived reduction in noise, since the amplifier being used to drive the speakers will be introducing less additional noise if the source is louder (i.e., the amp will not be working as hard).

Recording properly to begin with, of course, will improve the S/N.

So if the question is: "I recorded too quietly, what can I do to save the recording?" the answer is to normalize the recording.

If the question is: "all of my recordings come out too quiet, how can I make better recordings in the future?" then the answer is to adjust the gain of the microphones and/or position them closer to the instrument.


One other consideration is that a track that is recorded too loud cannot be saved and will be distorted and unlistenable no matter what you do to it.
So when recording live gigs, I tend to err on the side of caution and set the recording volume fairly low and normalize it later. If I record too hot, nothing will fix it, whereas if I record too low, it just means a little extra noise and slightly poorer frequency response, neither of which is a disaster.

jdowning - 5-7-2009 at 04:23 PM

Thanks for the helpful discussion.
The H2 is a lot more sophisticated than first meets the eye - far from just a 'point and shoot' device. The manuals seem to be pretty comprehensive but will take time to read, absorb the detail and then put into practice - by trial and error - to achieve optimum results.

jdowning - 5-8-2009 at 12:21 PM

Now that I have discovered (by reading the manual!) how to make fine adjustments to the microphone(s) gain on the H2, a bit more time was spent today experimenting with microphone location and orientation.
The H2 is mounted on a camera tripod (it has a standard thread in the base for this) so can be easily adjusted for height and tilt. The tripod mounting is also security against accidental damage to the H2. The H2 casing is plastic so - although light in weight - needs some care in handling to avoid accidental damage. Dropping the unit on to a hard surface would not be a good idea (probably not for the more costly recorders either!)
So far, the best position for recording solo lute seems to be with the H2 at a height and distance of about 5 ft (1.5 metres) situated to the left - rather than head on to the instrument.
What is the experience of others for best microphone placement when recording solo oud?

The low cost memory card (DaneElec, SDHC class 4) has been tried and seems to work OK. The 8GB card is also on sale locally at less than half price so I may take a chance and test one of those as well - all in the interests of science and technology!

jdowning - 5-9-2009 at 11:59 AM

Purchased the 8GB SDHC DaneElec card this morning and find that it works OK in the H2. It is currently on sale, at $20 Can. until May 13th, from 'The Source' - by Circuit City. The DaneElec SDHC 16GB card is also on sale for $45 Can. so this would probably work as well.
The H2 user manual recommends only 4GB SDHC (as well as SD) memory cards - but the manual was likely written at a time when 4GB SDHC cards were the maximum capacity available. As rojaros noted in a previous posting, Samson have since successfully tested some brands of SDHC card up to 32GB capacity for the H2. Perhaps the brand is important - perhaps not. The DaneElec brand memory is a Japanese make.

Windows Mobile phone with Mynotes software

sabbassi - 5-11-2009 at 03:49 AM

This recording was done with my mobile phone and it is not bad at all. Not so good as a Zoom H4 ofcourse

jdowning - 5-11-2009 at 04:59 AM

Correction - Samson have tested certain brands of memory cards on the Zoom H2 up to 32GB for SD memory and 16GB for SDHC memory.