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anyone have this fretless instrument?

MatthewW - 11-2-2009 at 12:42 PM

Hi- has anyone out there purchased one of these? I am curious as to the overall sound and quality.The price is good.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Cs-CEM-MC-OUDITAR-FRETLESS-LUTE-OUD-UD-LAVTA-lu...

thanks in advance, MW

Aymara - 11-2-2009 at 01:35 PM

Hi Matthew,

I bet nobody has tested the fretless flamenco guitar from CEM Musicshop. As I already mentioned HERE, that good fretless guitars are in a different price range, so I wouldn't expect to much fom the CEM model.

Marcus once visited CEM's shop in Mannheim as far as I remember ... maybe he saw that guitar there and can tell you more?

MatthewW - 11-2-2009 at 02:08 PM

Hi Chris- It would be useful to get some feedback from anyone who's actually tried this fretless guitar from CEM. Sometimes an inexpensive item can be good value for money, sometimes a waste of money!
It would be nice to find a relatively inexpensive yet well made fretless guitar other than the ones made by Godin or as you say having a lutiher custom build you one for $$$$$.
hmmm...how far are you from CEM Chris? regards, MW

Aymara - 11-2-2009 at 02:28 PM

Quote: Originally posted by MatthewW

It would be nice to find a relatively inexpensive yet well made fretless guitar other than the ones made by Godin or as you say having a lutiher custom build you one for $$$$$.

A further option would be buying a standard flamenco guitar and let a luthier remove the frets ... that's what most people do and I would expect a better the result ... ok, maybe a little bit more expensive.

Maybe first check luthier costs for fret removing ... that's just a short email.

Quote:

hmmm...how far are you from CEM Chris?

So far, that I even wasn't interested to give CEM's ouds a try for my own needs. The trip by car is a pure highway nightmare and the train ticket costs 180€ ... too bad, sorry.

Write Marcus a U2U, maybe he can help? He lives in Stuttgart, which isn't far from Mannheim and who knows, maybe he remembers this guitar from his visit at CEM's music shop?

Marcus - 11-2-2009 at 11:11 PM

Hi MatthewW :wavey:

I never tryed one of Cem`s fretless instruments, but as far as I know, it is possible to return all items if you just dont like them.
Ok, you can still lose some bucks for the shipping costs.

Quote:

A further option would be buying a standard flamenco guitar and let a luthier remove the frets

I did this with a old but not too bad classical guitar.The result was not what i expected. Maybe just because I`m not a instrument-maker,not even a talented carpenter

, didnt sound bad-but looks horrible.
I did ask a violinmaker who once did some peg-work on my oud what`s the price for doing this proffesionell.......a bit more than the ouditar cost!!!

If I where you I`ll give it a try.

Quote:

Marcus once visited CEM's shop in Mannheim as far as I remember ... maybe he saw that guitar there and can tell you more?

Aaaaall right folks, if I find the time and mood I´ll do a ride to Mannheim to check Cem`s collection;-))

Greetings Marcus

fernandraynaud - 11-2-2009 at 11:29 PM

We are all waiting for your report like dogs with our tongues hanging out! Don't forget to try out the ouds too

MatthewW - 11-3-2009 at 12:30 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Marcus

Quote:

Marcus once visited CEM's shop in Mannheim as far as I remember ... maybe he saw that guitar there and can tell you more?

Aaaaall right folks, if I find the time and mood I´ll do a ride to Mannheim to check Cem`s collection;-))

Greetings Marcus

Hey Marcus, that would be great if you could personally test drive one of these 'ouditars' as CEM calls them and let us known what you think.

by the way Chris, I spoke with 2 lutihers on removing an exisiting fretted fingerboard from a classical guitar and replacing it with a blank unfretted one. One said it was not that straight forward a job as it seems depending on the guitar - the fingerboard could crack at places in the removal process requiring further repair work to then smooth it all out and so on. I'm not a luthier but I can see what he is on about. cheers, MW

Aymara - 11-3-2009 at 01:04 AM

Hi again!

Quote: Originally posted by Marcus

Ok, you can still lose some bucks for the shipping costs.

I think the return option is something for Europeans ... shipping costs outside Europe especially USA will be too high, I think.

Quote:

I did this with a old but not too bad classical guitar.The result was not what i expected. Maybe just because I`m not a instrument-maker, ...

That's a job for guitar luthiers, because a special tool is needed for a precise job.

Quote:

... , didnt sound bad-but looks horrible.

The fret holes need to be sealed

and the fingerboard sanded afterwards.

BTW ... there's a new trend among fretless guitarists, a metal fretboard. After removing the frets and grinding it, a thin aluminium plate is mounted as a new fretboard. It is said, that this compensates the sustain loss caused by defretting. On unfretted.com there's even a photo of an accoustic guitar with such a fretboard ... I think it looks strange, if it's not an electric guitar.

Quote:

I did ask a violinmaker who once did some peg-work on my oud what`s the price for doing this proffesionell.......a bit more than the ouditar cost!!!

I think, it's better to ask a guitar luthier instead, because it's a standard job for them to replace old frets with new ones on old guitars ... frets wear out over time, especially when steel strings are used. But defretting is a bit more work, that fret exchange, because the nut and bridge need to be lowered to retain good action.

But hey ... it's not much work to ask several guitar luthiers by email, what such a job would cost. I bet, there will be noticeable differences.

Quote:

Aaaaall right folks, if I find the time and mood I´ll do a ride to Mannheim to check Cem`s collection;-))

I think, all people who are interested in student instruments would be very happy, if you'll do that. And if your findings will be positive, ask CEM, what they pay for a good effective advertising

PS:

Quote: Originally posted by MatthewW

One said it was not that straight forward a job as it seems depending on the guitar - the fingerboard could crack at places in the removal process requiring further repair work to then smooth it all out and so on.

I think, an experienced luthier should know to avoid that, except maybe on very cheap guitars not well build. As I wrote before ... fret exchange should be a standard job for an experienced guitar (not violin) luthier.

fernandraynaud - 11-3-2009 at 01:21 AM

I have defretted an electric bass, and am defretting an electric guitar. It's not THAT difficult as long as the neck has no binding around it, as that's hard not to damage. You heat the fret with a soldering iron so the glue softens, then you delicately pull it out with "nippers". The most difficult fingerboard wood is rosewood because it splinters as you pull out the fret, in which case the edges of the slot are jagged.

You then fill the slot with layers of a relatively matching veneer and/or wood paste. It's fine if the lines show a bit, it helps with intonation. Then you even it all out and sand/polish/coat. How it looks (and how flat it is) is up to how carefully you do it. It's good to do this slowly, like a couple of frets an evening, but it's doable. Start at the top so you can get the hang of it where the ugliest one won't be as important. Also if you decide your hands aren't steady enough, you can go get a drink and just forget it, only one fret short.

There are many tutorials on doing it on a bass, it's the same thing. Jaco Pastorius started the whole fretless bass movement by doing it on his Fender.

The metal fingerboard story confirms the sustain increase I got by coating my Sukar's fingerboard. Metal is TOO much, though, that's a Sarod.

the grass is always greener

fernandraynaud - 11-3-2009 at 03:23 AM

I wonder why people want fretless guitars when they 1) already have an Oud and 2) can get a Cumbus.

What happened to me was that I started desperately wanting an Oud decades ago, but didn't think I could ever find one. They WERE hard to find back then, only Hamza El Din and Sandy Bull had one. So as the bug bit me again, I started defretting a guitar, I almost got a Cumbus on CraigsList but missed it, then .... BANG ... here I ended up, totally wrapped around the oud, which is what I was looking for all along. So I don't fully understand the reverse path.

The neck of the Oud turns out to be perfectly long enough. For a longer neck, I wouldn't sacrifice the (divine) double strings, and since fretless 12 string guitars are hard to find, I'd look for a standard long neck fretless 12 string Cumbus, and put a pickup on it. Unlike the guitar, you KNOW the Cumbus, with its level fingerboard and adjustments, is not likely to have action problems. And it has the double strings.

Does the Cumbus suffer from utilitarian looks?

Aymara - 11-3-2009 at 03:34 AM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

So I don't fully understand the reverse path.

Maybe we should consider it being a parallel path?

Quote:

... you KNOW the Cumbus ...

I myself for example don't like the Banjo sound.

Sazi - 11-3-2009 at 04:01 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Aymara

I myself for example don't like the Banjo sound.

A friend of mine swapped out the metal strings for a standard oud set and reckons it's much sweeter, like a cross between an oud and a rebab...

MatthewW - 11-3-2009 at 11:48 AM

Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud

I wonder why people want fretless guitars when they 1) already have an Oud and 2) can get a Cumbus.

There are many reasons my friend. An oud is an oud, a cumbus is a cumbus and so on..
I think anyone who has come from a guitar playing background and has then taken up any fretless instrument, such as the oud, would be interested in what a fretless classical guitar could do. They are very much two different instruments.
My interest in fretless classical guitar was stimulated by listening to Erkan Ogur play. He is a very talented Turkish musician who plays several instruments, fretless guitar being one of them.
One of my favourite CDs of the moment is a collaboration between him and the equally talented Djivan Gasparyan- Djivan is about 80 years old and a master duduk player. here is a youtube clip of them performing one of the numbers off that CD 'FUAD'. After seeing and listening to Erkan play fretless classical guitar you'll understand why some are drawn to that instrument. regards, MW
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7rrMTD7Xwc&feature=related

handiro - 1-1-2010 at 03:38 AM

I totally agree that Erkan Ogur is an inspiration to get a fretless guitar. On the other hand I doubt that the CEM store has anything that will sound like Erkan for that price. To have a good sounding fretless guitar the action must be extremely low and the fingerboard has to be super straight. I have been inspired by Erkan myself and have not yet found a good guitar. The only instrument I have that comes close is my Abdo Dager oud which has the lowest action ever and gives that whining sound when sliding. I bet Erkan has worked long to get his intruments and no shop, even less on epain is able to offer something even close.

handiro - 1-1-2010 at 03:57 AM

no idea how to upload my favourite Erkan solo but I found something on youtube which could explain to some why Erkan is one of my top favourite:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvlgBh_4p9c

paulO - 1-2-2010 at 04:09 AM

Erkan is a one of a kind musical talent; he doesn't have that "hey check out what I can do", approach to his art. Everything he does honors the music over technique -- thanks for the link handiro, beautiful track.

Regards..PaulO

norumba - 1-8-2010 at 01:01 AM

my path was regular elec guitar -- oud -- sarod --- back to reg guitar, which all of a sudden i couldnt stand the stiffness and rigidity of it after all the fretless instruments, so i went for fretless electric guitar, which along with oud has been my mainstay.

I do have a deeply scalloped elec. guitar which also offers up better pitch flexibility, although in a very different way from the fretless.