hamed
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When was the 6th course added?
I know that many oud players have been using 6 course ouds long before the 6th course was officially recognized by academic music institutions but i
would like to know how far back the 6 course tradition dates.
I have an old syrian oud that i think was made in 1918 according to some writing on the rib paper inside the oud (label is missing) but the bridge has
holes for 6 courses so I'm starting to wonder whether or not it was replaced at some point.
Thanks
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jdowning
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Around the 14th C (Baghdad?).
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hamed
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Hi Jdowning,
thanks for the response, if it was in the 14 C why did it take 650 years for it to become a standard?
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jdowning
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Probably because it has taken 650 years for those modern academic music institutions to become established - official standardisation of 6 courses
being a commercial convenience because most oudists perform on six course instruments today? However my understanding is that four course (oud arbi),
five course and seven course ouds are still also being played by choice even in this day and age.
I have found my notes on the introduction of courses on the early ouds. The sixth course is said to have been first mentioned by an anonymous writer
from Baghdad in his work entitled "Removing Difficulties and Griefs of the Instrument of Passion". During the late 15th C Ottoman writer al-Ladhiqi
mentions a six course oud called the 'oud akmal' - he also mentions the four course oud (oud qadim) and the five course oud (oud kamil). In the early
16th C the Ottoman court musician Mahmoud al-Maraghi describes a seven course oud (oud mukammal).
Probably the earliest surviving oud (late 18th/early 19th C?) is the seven course oud in the Brussels Musical Instrument Museum cat# 0164.
So nothing would appear to have changed much over 6 centuries or so concerning the number of courses on an oud. An early 20th C Syrian oud with six
courses would not seem to be unusual - particularly given the availablity of metal wound on silk (or gut) bass strings at that time.
The European lute between the mid 16th C until its demise in the mid 18th C, as it developed, continued to add further courses up to a total of 13 or
14 - but that's another story.
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hartun
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starting almost at the beginning of the video, (0:30) richard hagopian gives his account of the history of string courses on the oud, claiming the low
6th string was added in US
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuCXl_9XTZY
.....mr. hagopian continually refers to the "masters" who he learned from. he does not mention them by name but his teachers were Garbis Bakirgian, an
armenian kanun player who was active in istanbul in the last days of the ottoman empire before immigrating to the US, and also the well known Udi
Hrant.
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jdowning
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The context of the video conversation is, unfortunately, not clear so some of the content may be open to misinterpretation.
Richard Hagopian makes a number of statements during the course of the interview that (hopefully) suggests he is not talking about the history of the
oud in general. For example he says that the oud originally had 5 courses, that ouds were strung in gut (no mention of silk), that the double top
course was introduced in the late 1920's and that the addition of a (single) low 6th course was an American guitarist innovation of the 1960's.
However, he refers to the tuning of his oud as E A B e a d' so what seems most likely is that he is just talking about the recent history of the
modern 'Turkish' (or Armenian) oud with a history dating back only as far as the late 19th C (said to be an instrument invented by Manol (Manolis
Venios) who was active as a luthier in Istanbul until his death in 1915). As a relatively recent innovation, the modern Turkish oud perhaps has little
direct connection in design to the ouds once used in the early Ottoman courts before the instrument fell out of courtly favour during the 17th C?
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hartun
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jdowning,
you are exactly right. he can only be talking about the modern history of the turkish oud....its unfortunate he doesn't clarify this but he is clearly
speaking only to his own tradition - just as he mentions other practices he was brought up with like playing with only 3 fingers, etc. which not even
all armenian oudists adhere to. however this to me is not inconsistent with the fact you mentioned earlier that 6 and 7 courses ouds already existed
in the past. obviously an instrument throughout history goes through many changes, many innovations some which stick and some which don't. and gains
and loses popularity as you mention in the ottoman court for instance where the oud was played prior to the 17th cen. but lost favor...
I think if we are to believe mr hagopian, his version of events would indicate that the oud was "standardized" to a 5 course instrument by the
beginning of the 20th century (with or without the addition of the "cheater string" which he mentions as a 6th high string, that was done away with in
the 1920s as he states). that this 5 course instrument was then given a 6th course by american musicians in the 1960s which gives us the modern
turkish oud having 5 double courses and one low single course.
the only question then being, are we talking about only turkish ouds or all ouds? if hagopian is right and the turkish oud was 5 courses at the turn
of the century, was the standard arabic oud also 5 courses at that time? does the existence of a 6th course on modern arabic ouds derive from their
usage in the modern turkish oud? or was there a separate origin of the 6th course being used by the arab players? i am a newcomer to the oud world and
am so far limited to the turkish-armenian tradition, but from what i understand many arabic ouds have 5 courses whereas almost all turkish have
6...this would lead one to beleive that the 6th ccourse (i mean, as we know it in modern times) comes out of the turkish oud tradition...and if you
believe mr hagopian the 6th course in m
.
odern turkish usage was pioneered in the states....of course i am completely open to correction here i am just making a suggestion.
of course your statements on the relative recent existence of the turkish oud tradition, manol etc are completely correct. from what i can glean from
the internet in fact it seems the oud was reintroduced to turkey from egypt in the mid to late 19th century. the kanun seems to have been introduced
at the same time...at least thats what old armenian books say
the rest of the video i found fascinating as well, for the other tidbits of how richard hagopian learned to play, i.e. with only 3 fingers, etc.
overall its a fascinating video. there are two other videos from the same interview, of richard playing armenian folk songs "akh im anoush yar" and
"daldala".
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jdowning
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It is interesting to learn about specific techniques and developments of the oud from the practitioners themselves - although in this specific case
the developments seem to apply only to the Turkish oud of the 20th C.
Concerning the low sixth course on the Turkish instrument note that Mr Hagopian is referring to a single string - an innovation (surely only as far as
the Turkish oud is concerned) that he says is from the 1960's in America. There is no question that both double and single string 6th courses were in
use on ouds other than the 20th C Turkish instrument long before this American invention. The same applies to the top string that might be either
single or double. Any oud may be set up either way - dependant upon user preference - even if an oud has a bridge originally designed to carry 6
double courses.
The top strings, when gut was used, were always prone to a short life and breakage so even if one string of a double string top course failed it would
still possible to continue playing with the remaining string. This no doubt was one economical and practical reason that a single top string was
eventually preferred by many players (as no doubt was the case with the European lute).
A single sixth course might also be chosen to provide a less overpowering, more balanced sound when using modern metal wound on nylon bass strings at
higher tensions.
Here is an earlier discussion about the Brussels # 0164 oud - probably one of the earliest surviving ouds dating to around the early 19th C (?). Note
the 7 courses and double strings throughout. Note also that the oud of this time was not an instrument 'native' to Egypt but had been introduced from
elsewhere.
Note also that although the geometry of the instrument (to my eye) bears some similarity in outward appearance to a modern Turkish oud, the string
length is 637 mm much longer than that of today's Turkish oud.
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=11186&p...
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hartun
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Jdowning, your post on the Brussels instruments and other early ouds was truly fascinating! Are you personally involved in this research or just
reporting on it? I will admit I didn't read every word I was never good at math. The vesica piscis concept I found very interesting however. There is
a certain geometric beauty to especially the turkish oud which I have always appreciated.
In regard to the origin of the oud.... I don't speak French but doesn't that just say " musical instruments used in Egypt" and then ones peculiar to
Egypt? Correct me if I'm wrong but just because the instrument is not "peculiar to" Egypt doesn't mean it is not a native instrument and comes from
elsewhere. Couldn't it mean these are instruments played in Egypt as well as other parts of the near east? As opposed to ones solely found in Egypt?
Again i am wide open to correction.
In regard to the low 6th string. I think we can agree that Hagopian is saying that whether or not the same setup existed at some point in the past,
the current turkish oud standard of a low 6th course of a single string derives from an American innovation of the 1960s. But my question is this,
when did the current standard of six courses on Arabic ouds come into being? I must admit my ignorance here but does the standard modern Arabic oud
have a single or double sixth course? And again my question is for how long has this been the standard? I can't help but assume that most 20th cen
Arab players before the 60s were using five course ouds. My reasoning is that I know for a fact that the Arab style and turkish style oudists in the
US in the 50s and 60s were playing together a great deal. The middle eastern communities being smaller at the time and there being less communication
with the Middle East the musicians turned outside their traditions to find others to play with and there was a lot more interaction unlike now when
everyone can safely hang out in their own tradition. This was especially true in New England see for example George Abdo Freddie Elias mike and buddy
sarkissian etc. Turkish Armenian udist marko melkon was said to play an Arabic oud although he played exclusively turkish and Greek and occasionally
Armenian songs and seems to have tuned to Ab!!!! As did many Armenian oudists of the 1920s.
I would find it highly unusual that if the Arab players were using 6 course ouds that this would not be cited as the origin of the 6th course for the
turkish oud. But mr Hagopian claims they were simply influenced by the guitar. That makes no sense unless perhaps the Arab players were using a double
6th course and it was the guitar that inspired a single string low course for the turkish oud. Again I'm not talking about who first built an oud with
6 courses sometime in history but specifically where the MODERN standard of 6 courses originates. And the top course is beside the point were talking
about the low string.
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jdowning
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I am personally involved in this line of research and post much of what I discover and my related thoughts on this and that on this forum as well as
elsewhere - freely and openly donated in the hope that it might spread knowledge about the oud (and other related instruments) and bring more
information to light by contributions from others (as is happening on this thread for example).
My knowledge of French is not that great either so my translation of 'instruments orientaux à corde connus en Egypte' as 'oriental stringed
instruments known in Egypt' is also open to correction by those fluent in the language. These instruments were found (and so were presumably being
played) in Egypt at the time of Napoleon's expedition at the end of the 19th C (as well as elsewhere in the Middle East I imagine) but had at some
time in the past been introduced to Egypt from elsewhere (according to the members of Napoleon's research team). In contrast to these 'foreign to
Egypt' instruments - side by side - are the illustrations of those that were not i.e. 'instruments à corde qui paroissent propres aux Egyptiens'.
It might be useful concerning this question of number of courses in recent history to examine some of the few ouds surviving in original condition
dating from the late 19th and early 20th C
I have suggested in the past that 'improvements' in string technology - i.e. the availability of close wound wire on silk strings introduced in the
second half of the 19th C (for guitar players) might also have some bearing of when the sixth course was generally adopted in modern times (modern =
late 19th C and later?)
Perhaps players of Arabic ouds and those in a position to examine the bridges of both 'Arabic'and 'Turkish' ouds of the late 19th/early 20th C might
be in a position comment further?
I have an old Egyptian oud that dates from the early 20th C (or earlier but certainly well before the 1960's) with its original bridge that is drilled
for 6 double courses and was originally fitted with gut trebles and wound copper wire on silk core basses.
I referred to the question of single versus double top course because Mr Agopian did in his video.
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hartun
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I guess we would have to ask someone whose very knowledgable of Arab practice from the 20s -60s. Even if you have an Arab oud from the early 20 cen
with 6 courses I wonder how it was tuned originally. The top course could have been tuned high which is how mr Hagopian describes the turkish oud pre
1930 with the second course equivalent to the current first course. Very interesting so they specifically say that oud was introduced from elsewhere?
I wonder where from probably Syria and Iraq I would guess.
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jdowning
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The original string length of my Egyptian oud was about 630 mm (the neck has since been shortened slightly). The highest pitch a plain gut string can
be taken to without unacceptably frequent breakage is f' (at A440 standard or f' sharp at A415 standard). The top string would then be about 0.4 mm in
diameter - so a high tuning of F A d g c' f' would have been a possibility (with wound basses a necessity) but a lower pitch 'Arabic' tuning of say C
E A d g c' is more likely (to give the deeper, darker tone sonorities generally preferred by the Arabic oud players) with a more robust top string
diameter of say 0.55 mm - again a tuning range only made possible with the availablity of wound basses. Unfortunately I no longer have the original
gut strings to verify the string diameters.
If Hagopian is saying that before 1930 the top string of the modern Turkish oud was tuned to g' (i.e. a fourth above the current top string pitch of
d') then that is about the maximum pitch a gut string can be taken to (at A415 standard ) given a shorter string length of 585 mm (modern Turkish
oud).
The tradition for both oud and European lute all gut strung instruments (i.e. before the introduction of wound basses) was to tune the top string as
high as it would go without breaking - the reason being to give the thicker gut (or silk) basses the best chance of producing an acceptable tone and
sound volume.
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