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amine2
Oud Maniac
Posts: 80
Registered: 12-11-2006
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hello brian, it seems tht you don't agree with me.
i wan just to say that koonitz is the saxophonist typical lydian, he always find a way to introduce a lydian scale in a 2,5,1 cadence, or other...
eric dolphy has melanged bop phrases with LCC, and his albums with g.russell are really fantastic.
keith jarrett is a modal pianist, and he plays lydian most of times, you can't make standars sounding like he does if you don't play modal.
bill evans is a special case, because he is, i think a pianist between tonal jazz and modal jazz, he made a innovating cds applicating LCC (kind of
blue), and plays with georges russsell (a 2pianos CDs), but he isn't a modal pianist like will be chick corea mc coy or kenny baron... he said that
applicating the concept, "isn't lyrrical"...
i think that you didn't understod my bad english, and i should say that every jazz musicien knows this LCC, knows bop, and different others concepts,
and then try to prouve his own personnality with all that and go more far... of course you can't play modern jazz is you don't play bop and don't know
what is this LCC.
i should also say that applicating LCC means playing not only lydian scale, but about 60ones...and the mesiaen scales, shoenberg, debussy ...are
there.
i find that dave liebmann concept is completes g.russel's. do you agree? applicating this two concepts, means playing modal jazz as it should be
played.
i think that marc copland plays with difernent systems, and i am so in love with his music. do you know somes of his ideas???
amine
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amine2
Oud Maniac
Posts: 80
Registered: 12-11-2006
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Mood: No Mood
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i want also to say, that most of modern jazzmens play demidiminished scale, (brecker, jarrett, coleman...) and it is a scale wich exist in the scales
table of LCC. messian pretended to invent it... and when i say that someone plays lydian it meens that he's playing majority of those scales
repertoried on this table.
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Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 2955
Registered: 1-30-2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
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Mood: Stringish
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Hey Amine,
I think we have a misunderstanding.
I'm not saying that the scales and concepts in Russell's book don't reflect some of what jazz musicians do, or that he didn't influence people's
thinking. But as a system, it is not how people are approaching the music. At best, it is a description of certain results.
Konitz is a case in point. He uses the #4 a lot, but if you listen carefully to his lines it's clear that it's coming from either a V7/V or bII7/V
(i.e., tonal origins) and not from a lydian scale/mode in most instances.
Russell did not invent these scales, so their use alone does not indicate that people are specifically appying his concepts. Nicolas Slonimsky's
Thesaurus of Scales and Melodc Patterns is arguably more influential in regard to octatonic (i.e., diminished) scales etc.
Moreover, Russell's justification for the importance of Lydian (it is the scale that derives from 7 successive P5ths, the 5th being the first overtone
besides the octave) lacks a genuine understanding of how overtones and intonational relationships relate to music. By his own logic, the Mixolydian
and Dorian should have more primacy, since the tonic is the center of 7 stacked 5ths, making the notes more harmonically related (i.e., F C G D A E B
make all the notes most closely related to the tonic if the tonic is G or D).
Furthermore, Pythagorean tuning (i.e., all 5th-derived) is not the primary system of western music (though, interestingly enough it is very
influential in Turkish and Arabic music). Much of western harmony is 3rd-based, known as 5-limit just intonation (the 3rd being the next note in
overtone series, bring the total # of overtones
involved to 5).
Liebmans's concepts are interesting as well, but I still don't think they apply as a system (unless you happen to be David Liebman).
I think being an improviser eventually means moving beyond systems and connecting your instrument directly to your ears.
I know the sense in which you're using the word modal, but the terminology can be confusing since "modal jazz" means something different from "modal
concepts". All the musicians you mentioned employ modal concepts (Chick Corea and McCoy Tyner being extreme examples), but I think they've moved
beyond mental concepts in the way they approach music.
I like what I've heard from Marc Copland; what are your favorites?
by the way, I appreciate you making the effort to respond in English.
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amine2
Oud Maniac
Posts: 80
Registered: 12-11-2006
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Mood: No Mood
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thank you brian, i didn't know about nicolas slonimsky, i will serach for his books.
i said that liebman's concepts is intereseting beacause it completes russell's one, and go more far, and it is clear that it is very difficult to
sound it like he does.
i call modal jazz all jazz music after kind of blue, (there is some musiciens who stick to old swing and bop jazz of course).
i like the duets of copland with bill carothers "no choice", gary pea<b>rooster</b> "what it says", greg osby"nigth call", dave
liebman"bookends", his trio albums "haunted hearts and other ballds....and solo albums "poetic motion", "time within time".
i find he've very poetic playing, and a big knowledge in jazz , modern classical harmny...etc. i've seen him in concert 05december, here in paris,
with liebman, it was fantastic, huge, enorme.
besides i like tomasz stanko, john taylor, kenny wheller, keith jarrett, mc coy tyner ....and many others. i like also double bass player peter
herbert, i find that he's best bass player nowadays. (itis a subjective viewpoint).
i've a teacher who have worked for his master about marc copland, he's transcribed many of his work.
but i am still thinking that russells concept was important, as it was the first one, it made jazz progress more, and all musicins who come after had
to know it as it was the first one. maybe it it has some useless ideas, as everything, but it has opened many doors for a lot of musicians and for me
as a student.
what about your favorite musicians?
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Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 2955
Registered: 1-30-2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
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Mood: Stringish
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Sure, I agree it is important as the first theoretical jazz system and it influenced a lot of people. I was just saying that it's not directly
responsible for the way the way modern players compose/improvise, which is what I thought you were saying.
I like Kenny Wheeler and Jarrett, too. I like John Taylor, I think he's on Mark Feldman's new ECM disc, which I hear is excellent.
Also Dave Douglas, Bill Frisell, Mark Turner, Kurt Rosenwinkel, Erik Friedlander, Mehldau, Lee Konitz, Wayne Shorter, Tim Berne, Misha Mengelberg,
Herbie, Ron Miles, Marilyn Crispell, and of course Miles Davis, Coltrane, Evans, Tristano, Getz, Cannonball, Booker Little, Mingus, Monk, Ornette,
etc.
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amine2
Oud Maniac
Posts: 80
Registered: 12-11-2006
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Mood: No Mood
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what do you think about peter herbert? and tomasz stanko?
john taylor is on feldman's last cd, but i prefer him as a leader with his trio or on solo, and also is duo with wheeler.
there are some albums of dave douglas not really good, but i like an album with chris potter playing bass clarinet. kurt rusenwinkel, i think is one
of better jazzgguitarist players. metheny too.
there are some french jazzmusicien not bad, like stephan oliva, jean philllipe viret, thomas savey, daniel humair, baptiste trotignon....
i found nicolas slonimsky's book on the net, i'll reed it.
amine
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zalzal
Oud Junkie
Posts: 747
Registered: 12-9-2005
Location: Nîmes France
Member Is Offline
Mood: still alive
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Fwg article is coming fm this link
http://insonewsletter.blogspot.com/2006/07/inso-e-newsletters-episo...
It is not very conclusive for me, still the question is good. Are there arab influences contributing to the arise of jazz and blues in north america
??
Behind this question lay another one, how arab music reached africa and west africa and fm there with slavery trade north america.
While reading that "oud is a primarily banjo" i imagined deported african people in north america trying to reproduce oud which they might have seen
or used or even have in their imaginaries, provided oud reached west africa during slavery trade.
3. Jazz & Blues -- Arab Influences
by Wafaa' Al-Natheema
The resemblance is close enough to suggest directinfluence, especially in view of the importance of the Gold Coast in the North American slave trade.
The famous hollers, those rhapsodic forerunners of the early blues, seem to have derived as much from the Savannah as from the coastal style. At the
end of the nineteenth century, Jeannette Robinson Murphy gave an account ofthe black American singing style which leaves no doubtabout its Near
Eastern character. Beginning with the most solid pieces of evidence, the instruments.
Mesopotamia seems to have been the birthplace of the bow harp, roughly described as a bent stick with a sound-box at one end and several strings
strung between this on the other end. Another very early Mesopotamian invention was the lyre. Later on the oud (lute), which made its appearance in
the same area. Lute is the conventional designation of the instrument, but in fact it would be more accurate to describe this ancestor of the whole
guitar and fiddle family as a primary banjo, with the sound-box and the strings played with a plectrum, tied onto the broomstick-like finger board.
The reed pipe was another Mesopotamian development. A silver pipe from Ur has actually come down to us from about 2500 BCE, its shape is debatable
whether it was single or double. The harps, lyres, lutes and pipes of Mesopotamia spread into Egypt, and later into Greece and mainly through the
Greek influence to Rome. Via the Roman empire, they then made their way into northern Europe. From Egypt the same instruments spread south and
westward into Africa, where some of them survive to this day: the lyre family in East Africa, and the lute, in its original form, in the more
northerly parts of West Africa.
Along with the instruments went the Near Eastern singingstyle. In Africa it can be found in approximately the sameareas at the Near Eastern
instruments, and there is everyindication that it prevailed in medieval Europe as well, at least among the upper classes. No sooner had the
Islamicinfluence reached its height, around 1300 CE, than it began to recede with the first stirrings of the Renaissance. In one way, the Renaissance
was itself the outcome of Oriental influences. Europeans, and especially Italians, took Arab science, culture and financial methods, andwith them
started a train of developments which have gone on to this day.
Writing of the United States, Alan Lomax describes 'Southern backwoods singing' as "mostly unaccompanied, rubato, highly ornamented and solo; the
voice oriental, high-pitched and nasal, produced out of a tense body and throat".
A. M. Jones gives much the same description of the Afro-Arab style: "The Islamic tradition can at once be recognized by the very nasal and string
quality of voice that is invariably used. But added to the nasal vocalization there is the very frequent use of mordents to embellish the melody
notes. "The African style, too, was taken across the Atlantic. Latenineteenth century commentators remarked on it.
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jazzchiss
Oud Junkie
Posts: 217
Registered: 12-20-2004
Location: Madrid
Member Is Offline
Mood: Improvising
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Interesting information about Brahem and the european jazz
http://vagos.es/70459-anouar-brahem-john-surman-dave-holland-thimar...
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zalzal
Oud Junkie
Posts: 747
Registered: 12-9-2005
Location: Nîmes France
Member Is Offline
Mood: still alive
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Ha ha
vagos means lazy people in spanish
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