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suz_i_dil
Oud Junkie
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bad story about a new oud
Hello
I have bought a few weeks ago a new oud, from a well know oud maker, and in which I trust the work.
The problem is after 2 days, the oud face broke all the long of the face, on the bass strings side.
It is a floating bridge oud, 6 strings,face non varnished, kurschner set of strings, so not too much tension on it.
I don't wish to put pictures for the moment, as you would know directly who is the maker. I just want to know your opinion about what happened.
The fact is I took this oud in two hours from a weather hot and wet (35 degrees, 50% humidity) to a weather very hot and dry in just two hours (42
degrees, maybe around 15/20% of humidity). Do you think this may explain what happened with it? Or do you suppose there was a problem of making more
of that?
The original maker doesn't answered my mails, and now the oud has been well repared by another oud maker.
But I am seeking for an explanation.
Thank you
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ccowing
Oud Admirer
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Not knowing very much about ouds, I'd say you got a lemon. They should take it back and allow you to exchange for a similar one. Just my opinion.
Craig Cowing
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SamirCanada
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sounds like the face was made with 3 peices instead of 2 peices.
that I can see being a problem with having a floating bridge oud.
I used to have a foad jihad oud with the same problem.
Also is the bridge 100% perfectly dead flat?
because that could have put more pressure on the edges if it was hollow.
it also depends on what kind of glue was used to joint to soundboard.
and I think it can be the result of bad luck a small failure in the joint cause a chain reaction.
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MatthewW
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hello suz- reading your post I'm not entirely clear on what happened- you bought a new oud a few weeks ago; did you have it with you for a few weeks
or only have it for just two days and then this break happened? Did this change of temperature and humidity all happen in the same place, within a two
hour period?
Whatever, I don't think 50% is really extremely high humididty, and though 35-42 degrees is hot I assume you weren't sitting outdoors playing your oud
with the sun shining directly on it for a long period. I tend to agree with Craig and Samir, that the reason for the break is somewhere inbetween.
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Dr. Oud
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The change in humidity and temperature certainly had something to do with the faillure. Another factor could be the age of the wood when it was built.
Unless the wood was well seasoned (3 or more years of air drying), a separated face is not uncommon. It's not a disaster anyway, as it can easily be
repaired from the outside.
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suz_i_dil
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Thank you for your kind answers.
To answer the question, I hope I won't forgot any.
The glue used is hot glue, and the break doesn't follow a piece of wood, the face is made of only two piece, I can see part of the joint between the
two pieces of wood at the middle of the face. The break is lateral.
The regularity of the bridge is maybe an explanation, I didn't think of that.
Of course I didn't let the oud in the sun, I took it in a town, and then to another town, 2 hours from there in car, but in which the weather is
totally different (mountains between both). Out of this travel, the oud was always in a room, in the shadow. I make the travel keeping it in my hands,
in his hard case.
As say Dr oud, it is not a disaster, even if I saw it I thought it was one. Indeed the oud was successfully repaired, the crack is nearly not visible
anymore and I find the sound not too much altered.
What put me in trouble is that the maker doesn't give any answer to my emails.
Regards
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Andy
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Sorry to hear about your oud and feel bad that the maker didn't have the consideration to reply to you with a possible explanation. Good to know it
has been repaired. How does it sound??
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suz_i_dil
Oud Junkie
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Yes indeed, I am really disappointed by his way of acting. Moreover after all what he said to me, and particulary that he would never close his door
to me, and that in any case of problem he would be here to help to solve it.
But that's it, business words.
Anyway, finally the oud sound good, but in a traditionnal kind of sound more powerful because of the floating bridge, but deep and round like with
classical ouds.
I say "but", because I was waiting to use this sound for a modern type of playing, looking for a bright and powerful sound. In the type of sound you
can here with modern iraki oud player.
I explained that to him before ordering, and I tought he would varnish the soundboard. But then he didn't, and I was engaged in this order and didn't
have the time to wait for him to make a varnish.
I don't know for the moment if I keep this oud as it is, for another kind of playing that I was expecting.
Or if I ask a luthier to varnish the face.
Can you give your opinion about this last solution:
What kind of varnish should be use, is there a simple way to applicate it or should I refer to a luthier ( and which, as ther is no oud maker in my
area but luthier in violon and guitar )? Do you think also a varnish would change the sound as I am waiting for it and permit to use high tension
strings ( like pyramid set of strings Mathias Wagner made for Naseer Shamma, maybe around 10 lbs of tension for each strings. A kurschner set is
lower, I think around 8 lbs, and doesn't make problem now on the oud).
Anyway, if this seller doesn't give any news, I will send pictures of the sound, before and after being repared, so that you will get an idea of the
quality of it.
Thank you for your help
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Dr. Oud
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Finishing the top usually diminishes the volume somewhat, but I don't believe it will change the tonal qualities, as these are determined by the type
of wood, age and structure of the soundboard. It is very difficult to predict the tonal quality of an oud before it's built anyway, if you had a
particular sound in mind you should paly ouds that are completed and you'll get what you want. As for the type of finish, it matters more how it is
applied more than what is used. I've seen light lacquer finishes that seem to work just fine, and heavy shellac finishes that mask the sound. Any
qualified luthier can apply a finish, but I don't think it will change the tone, only reduce the volume. The finish will not allow for use of higher
tension strings. There are more variations is the tonal quality of different strings, but using a higher tension can be dangerous. The face can be
damaged by too much string pressure, particulalrly with the floating bridge style.
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paulO
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Hi Suz_I_Dil,
In terms of getting what you want soundwise in an oud, I second what Dr. Oud posted. Ordering and oud is an adventure, even if you discuss in detail
the type of sound you're looking for, and the builder truly understands what you want -- the results can be surprising, and not in a good way ! I've
seen 3 ouds ordered around the same time, built by John Merjanian -- each oud had a different sound quality, and only one of the 3 had a sound that
was somewhat close to what we were looking for !
Second -- be careful with higher tension strings, re-read Richard's post on this.
Regards..Paul
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charlie oud
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Sorry but this humidity stuff is a bit far fetched, Why do ouds supposedly suffer from this so much, when lutes (which are mucher lighter and less
robust do not) "Lute"makers rarely mention "humidity" and if they do, they do not blame it. The Oud took a bash or the maker made a gaff. Ive owned an
oud by a very well known and hugely respected maker which had some sloppy workmanship which I had to get repaired by someone else. These guys are'nt
Gods and (I bet I get some stick for this) the standard of oud construction, generally, is not as high as Lute & Spanish Guitar construction. C
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suz_i_dil
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Hello
I took contact finally with a oud maker here in France (I found one in Paris, in a shop call "le point d'accroche").
His opinion second your last post, that a varnish would absolutely not change the tone of the instrument, and no change anyway in the resistance of
the soundboard.
Quite difficult to explain with my english, but he also told me that a floating bridge oud shall have, a cut bowl. I mean the soundboard shall not be
on a plan, but like for exemple on the bowl of mandolin, a bit in diagonal (less than on a mandolin). I don't know if I am clear. It seems that Yaroub
Fadel do that on his ouds.
The other solution is a convex face, like on violin, but no way on a oud of course.
Those permit to the instrument to support higher tension, and and with that permit to bring this characteristic high brilliant tone.
I post a few time ago videos of an oud from Ben Khaiba, after the luthier told me that, I remark this oud has also not his soundboard in a plan, as he
described to me.
Very few oud maker do that on their floating bridge ouds it seems.
I don't know the meaning of "bash", Charlie. I guess it means the oud was hurt. I am sure it was not, as I told you I always kept it in hand, in his
hard case. Then there was no one in the flat when it get broken. Most probably, I think there was a default in the wood of the soundboard.
Indeed ordering before trying particulary when you look for a particular sound is an adventure, and in this case an error.
So finally to get this kind of sound, I will one day ask to Yaroub Fadel.But when I see his prices... any solution to win at the national lotery?
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ALAMI
Oud Junkie
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A year ago a friend asked me to get him a floating bridge oud that is exactly like mine.
I got his oud that was brand new and mine that was 2 years old and went to where he was staying in the mountain (1500m, very dry region). The ouds are
similar in wood and in every single detail except that his oud has finish on the soundboard. The next day, in the mountain, both ouds have a crack on
the same place on the face: Bass string side near the extended fingerboard. Both ouds have the face made of 2 pieces of high quality european spruce
and ebony extended fingerboard.
To be honest, the maker had advised me not to take his ouds to the mountain and when I called him to tell him that both have a crack on the face...he
asked if the cracks were near the upper side of the fingerboards....!!!.
He offered to repair both ouds but the cracks were small (about 2 cm) and we decided not to touch the faces.
I took my oud back to my humid house not far from the sea and my friend took his oud to Europe and the cracks didn't develop since.
I know that I will not take this oud again to the mountain house.
I left up there for a few month my 25 years old top quality accoustic Ibanez and the face got seriously warped around
the hole. I don't think that guitars and lutes are immune to humidity and temperature changes, they are less fragile, but may be they have reached a
more "mature" know how in their making a maturity that oud, specially the "new" floating bridge are still lacking.
What was the cause of these cracks: high/low humidity difference, Pressure, temperature ? I don't know but I suspect
that the ebony fingerboard glued on the face has something to do with this.
Just my 2 cents, cos' I think that the "global oud problems monitoring" and the diversity of good and bad experiences
available on these forums are an opportunity that makers should take to improve their work and oudmaking in general.
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hamed
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What caused the crack ALAMI is probably is the ebony and spruce reacting differently to the temp and humidity change, since they two woods have
radicaly different densities, they react differently (contract or expand). Did you take the ouds to the mountain in the winter? Because i grew up in
Mt Lebanon at 1300m and my father owned a few ouds but never had problems. Maybe they were used to the weather!
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MatthewW
Oud Junkie
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Off Topic ( slightly)-
hey guys, here's a nice clip to help ease the frustration of a broken or damaged oud 
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=7TQg7qMtBaw&feature=related
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suz_i_dil
Oud Junkie
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I think I am going to learn dance tunes...
Yes Alami, I have heard of such crack, seem they are frequent also. I guess it is stabe, as there's not too much tension on this part of the
soundboard, as under the bridge.
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patheslip
Oud Junkie
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matthewW
please don't post stuff like that. I'm stuck in a remote cottage up a mountain while my wife is at home.
Images like that are toooo much
great music though
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MatthewW
Oud Junkie
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| Quote: | Originally posted by patheslip
matthewW
please don't post stuff like that. I'm stuck in a remote cottage up a mountain while my wife is at home.
Images like that are toooo much
great music though |
I heard it can be tough in them welsh hills...
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dubai244
Oud Junkie
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Hi Saz,
I was reading the messages and I think i got the answer. I think the problem is with the maker and his bad making skills, as result bad oud quality,
in my opinion.
I am from dubai, where the temperature reaches more than 40 C and humide almost the hole year and I have put my ouds in my room and some time i travel
for couple of days and i leave the room with NO AIRCONDTIONING, So you can imagine the temperature inside the room how it looks like. And guess What,
I never get any kind of problems with my all ouds, the cheap one's and expensive one's. The only problem i face with this temperature is the ouds are
always out of tuning. This is the only problem i face regarding temperature and humidity effect.
In my opinion, the maker has no skills and he used cheap metarials (Glue,wood ....etc) to make this oud. I totally blame the maker not the weather. It
will be really appreciated if you tell us his name, so we can avoid ordering from him.
Thanks
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ALAMI
Oud Junkie
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Hamed. you're probably right about the fact that spruce and ebony would react differenly creating a shearing stress in the face. In fact it was in the
middle of the hot and humid August.
It seems that the risk would come from abrupt changes and that the use of a hard case would smooth the transition.
Here is a link to a concise and interesting tips from luthier Douglas Scott:
http://www.scottclassicalguitars.com/care.htm
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suz_i_dil
Oud Junkie
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Hi Dubai
As I was telling in my first post, I really have hesitation in telling the name of the maker.
Because he was really welcoming with me and moreover help us the day I was at his place. And I really think this was sincere from him and his
family.
Second reason, is that an error may everytime occure, even with good quality work. I know he his using good wood, I saw it in his workshop, luthery
wood, spruce from France specially dedicated for luthery. And maybe there was a default of the wood he couldn't know when making the oud.
Then what put me in doubt is his reaction now, hidding behind his silence.
But anyway, this oud is not the kind of sound I am looking for, this was a misunderstanding by listening to files of his ouds and telling him what I
was waiting from it. His sound is more near from traditionnal sound than I was wishing.
So now I am seriously thinking of buying a Yaroub Fadel, in this case I will have to put this oud for sale. Yaroub Fadel are definitely to expensive
but I don't know other maker to get this kind of sound. So in this case I will have to post soundfiles and pictures, before and after repair, and you
will make your own opinion about. So indeed in this case you will know who his the maker.
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suz_i_dil
Oud Junkie
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I finally get an answer from the maker.
He made me a very good proposition, and told me he would change this oud and send me a new one, within 2 months, time for him to finish some other
works. I will send him back this one.
As I was telling you I was really surprised by his long time to reply, but finally seems he is really a maker we can trust and not only a seller who
close his door to you once you took the instrument.
I will keep you inform about the continuation.
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Andy
Oud Junkie
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That is great news for you and for the maker. He must have felt bad about it, your complaint to him reached his conscience. Now you can have trust and
good thoughts of him and will soon have a new instrument. Thank you for the update.
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Dr. Oud
Oud Junkie
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Location: Sacramento, CA, USA
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..or he saw these posts and realized that his reputation is the most important thing he has...
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suz_i_dil
Oud Junkie
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How to know...
But I prefer to stay on the thought I can trust him.
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