timlink
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My Oud has rejected its bridge...
Hi all, it has been a looong time since I've posted here. (My first post is here: http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=909)
Anyway, I need some help with a seemingly bizarre issue. Recently, the bridge on the Oud (pictured in the above thread from four years ago, a Syrian
tourist grade Oud, but a gosh darn nice one which I love!) was seemingly RIPPED off of the body by its strings. I do not know what happened; I was
staying at a friend's house, came home, and voila! Something apparently happened to it...
I went through all of the possibilities of what could have happened, and maybe something will pop out to some of you experts as a culprit.
Since Elie Riachi's recommendation in 2004, I have strung it with two sets of D'Addario J47 classical guitar strings, sans the high E, tuned to Arabic
style, and this has worked awesome (thanks btw!)
However, I have not played it for around a year. (I was restringing it, I messed up the highest string at the bridge and it would not hold tension, so
I just left it alone rather than pull my hair out). About 4-5 months ago, I took those strings off, put a new set on, and it was playing very nice. I
was in heaven. It did seem like there was a bit too much string tension, however, so I tuned it down a half step and kept it that way for awhile.
Worked great, then I played around some more and tuned it down another full step (that way it matches the way my main guitars are tuned). My Oud
seemed like one happy Oud, let me tell ya.
Well, I came home after a week or so and, like I said, the bridge was totally yanked off of the body and hanging by the strings behind the neck. Quite
a sad sight...
Any idea how this happened? could it have been a humidity or temperature issue? (My roommate is obnoxious with the heat in our house, and I remember
that it was very warm when I came home that night...) And how would you all recommend fixing it (if that's even practical...)? It just looks like the
glue gave way, and there is no damage to the body, just nice, bridge-shaped unfinished section 
Anyhow, let me know what you think. And thanks for all of the help I've received here.
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MatthewW
Oud Junkie
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related topic: strings and tension
timlink- sorry to hear about your bridge going off on it's own, hey it must have been a shock to find it in that state! If you are in Seattle then try
contacting Dr Oud who also is in WA.
I'm curious about your reference to using classical guitar strings, the J47s on your oud with seemingly good results, and wonder if these strings
might have contributed in any way (or not) to the bridge going loco.
Finding the right oud strings with just the right tension for your own sound, like finding the right risha, seems to be one of the pastimes of many
oud players! My oud is Arabic with a 58.5cm scale, and I would like to try using a double set of those classical guitar strings and see how they work
if they cause no problems tension wise. My main oud is also a 7 course oud so I'd probably want to use the high guitar 'E' strings and tune them up a
half tone to 'F'.
I'd like to ask you or anyone out there if you think these J47 classical guitar strings would work OK on my oud- all pros and cons welcome. thanks!-
mw
this is how I tune my oud: (photo from Jameel's website)
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timlink
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well, I can't answer all of your questions, but click on the link to my original post on this forum way up at the top and read what everybody had to
say about J47s.
I don't think that they had anything to do with my bridge getting ripped off, because I've gone through 2-3 string changes (playing with the same
strings for 8-9 months...sorry man, I HATE changing Oud strings!) using them without a problem. I really suspect it had something to do with the
humidity in my bedroom and all of the changes in string tension I imposed on the poor thing.
I remember about 10 years ago my ex girlfriend got a nice acoustic guitar, never ended up playing it that much, so it had been tuned to concert pitch
forever, I tune it down to an open C and BAM, lo and behold! One of the strings about takes my eye out. And as I was going "what the _____ just
happened??" there was this obnoxious, stereotypical "I work at Guitar Center" band dude guy (complete with the 1992 long hair/goatee/flannel combo) I
knew there, and he started reaming me about changing the string tension too fast. Sounded like BS at the time, but now that my bridge has been yanked
off...
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MatthewW
Oud Junkie
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hey Tim I can sympathize with you! I don't like changing strings that often either, guess it's laziness ( especially with 13 strings) but when I'm
done I'm glad I did it. 
As for using those J47s on my oud, I'd like to get more feedback from others who may have tried using these guitar strings and/or know about oud
string tension and can offer more pros and cons on this for tuning an oud from low C to high F, and with a 58.5cm scale. Having read your link I
believe that only one member, Elie really has made any positive input along these lines.
His last post on this was:
"Since there has been some interest in this subject, I have refined my equation to calculate the initial tension in the string prior to attaching the
weight in the middle. The same experimental procedures are used but repeated for two different values of weights. The refined new derivation is a bit
more involved but should give a better match to the actual initial tension"...
I could use more down-to-earth feedback from others in plain simple English, like " yes they will work for you" or " no way bud"!
best wishes- mw
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carpenter
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A friend sent me a link to "Arto's String Calculator." Looks useful. Google "string calculator" for that and more offerings; lute-, harp-, and
guitar-specific, etc.
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DaveH
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First a health warning - maybe you should take this with a pinch of salt, as I haven't actually done the calculations.
It's quite likely that the heat/humidity was a contributing factor - it will soften the hide glue. But I think it's also quite likely that the
underlying issues are string tension and less than perfect gluing job on the bridge. Guitar strings are made to operate at higher tensions. The
tension you have will be less because the string length is shorter than a guitar's (and I would have imagined this would make the sound pretty dull -
which seems not to be the case). As you only have 5 courses - which I assume means 9 strings if your base course is single - the oud may have been
able to take it for a while but as you say, restringing/dramatic changes in tension will tend to weaken joints and the humidity could have done the
rest, with spectacular results. At least you were away at the time and so still have all your fingers!
Matthew, while your oud is better made, I'm not sure I'd recommend trying the guitar strings as you have an extra 4 strings, or, all other things
being equal, nearly half again as much tension as tim. Unless you fancy an excuse to go visit Nazih, that is....
As I say, I haven't done the calculations but my gut instinct would be to steer clear of guitar strings.
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MatthewW
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Dave, as much as I would enjoy a visit to master Nazih I'd rather do it for other reasons! Thanks for your feedback on strings and tension, I had a
feeling this might be the case and all feedback is useful, for me as well as for other players. The forum is a great place for this.
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timlink
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DaveH
First a health warning - maybe you should take this with a pinch of salt, as I haven't actually done the calculations.
It's quite likely that the heat/humidity was a contributing factor - it will soften the hide glue. But I think it's also quite likely that the
underlying issues are string tension and less than perfect gluing job on the bridge. Guitar strings are made to operate at higher tensions. The
tension you have will be less because the string length is shorter than a guitar's (and I would have imagined this would make the sound pretty dull -
which seems not to be the case). As you only have 5 courses - which I assume means 9 strings if your base course is single - the oud may have been
able to take it for a while but as you say, restringing/dramatic changes in tension will tend to weaken joints and the humidity could have done the
rest, with spectacular results. At least you were away at the time and so still have all your fingers! |
Hide glue? you mean I've been playing animal products? Nooooo.... Oh wait, I eat meat all the time. Nevermind.
I do agree with you about the humidity. I pretty much had to post it on here to affirm that I wasn't crazy. It's so weird though, I don't use the base
string on mine, so that relieves a lot of the tension, and I've really never had a problem with these strings. While I'm sure there are differences
the naked eye can't see, there really is no different between these classical guitar strings on the Oud strings I had been buying prior. Just this
last time I restrung it....dang.
One thing I am curious about is fixing the thing. One of these days I will buy a nice Oud that doesn't have bridges randomly flying off (I just
graduated from college and am writing my first book, so that might, ahem, be a ways off...), but this guy has some serious sentimental value to me
and, call me crazy, I've always loved the way it sounds...and I have friggin' DOG EARS, people. For the life of me, I cannot fathom how people can
listen to Ipods or MP3s in general (shudder), and I'm one of those jerks who ends up resetting the EQ on everybody's car stereo/home
stereo/television, cause to me clipping, muddiness, and tinniness sounds like somebody scratching a plate with a fork right into the PA system at
Wrigley field. (I hope that was detailed enough...)
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Johnny_Be_Oud
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Hi, I'm no expert on ouds, but I do play many acoustic instruments.
My experience is that when a bridge comes off, that's no big deal. Solution -- have a luthier glue it back on. Having the bridge come off is much
better than having something more serious happen to the top - that's why hide glue is used and not epoxy or something.
Of course, if you don't play it for a while, loosen the strings. I currently have a concert uke with the bridge off. Not much fun opening the case and
seeing that, is it? ouch!
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Johnny_Be_Oud
Oud Lover
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I would amend the above by saying that when I say loosen the strings, mean loosen them by about a whole step or so. Just enough to take the "edge"
off, but not to traumatize the thing. 
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Marina
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Johnny_Be_Oud
My experience is that when a bridge comes off, that's no big deal. Solution -- have a luthier glue it back on. Having the bridge come off is much
better than having something more serious happen to the top - that's why hide glue is used and not epoxy or something.
Of course, if you don't play it for a while, loosen the strings. I currently have a concert uke with the bridge off. Not much fun opening the case and
seeing that, is it? ouch! |
He is right. It's not a big deal. Just take it to any luthier to glue it back.
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rojaros
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In that context please look the thread
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=7868#pid495...
You can easily measure the real string tension an know what happens with the strings you like to use when you put them to a certain tuning.
I think the strings should not go significantly above 4 kg per string on Oud...
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Dr. Oud
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Several factors could have contributed to the glue joint failure – high string tension (guitar strings are much larger gauge than oud strings, and
the bridge can’t withstand the resulting higher tension), heat and humidity, poor fitting of the original glue joint…It can be re-glued, but
should be fitted by lap sanding first. Then use some oud strings, the increased volume you enjoyed with the guitar strings was due to higher tension,
and that’s the most likely culprit for the failure.
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